EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage

[Fungus]

Another day, another twist on the slew of questionable claims:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html

A whole new round of clueless journalists are now going to repeat that without applying a single braincell to the content...?

What Journalists?

According to their site, PR Newswire is: "The Easiest Place For Journalists to Find News"

https://prnmedia.prnewswire.com/

[LabSpokane]

Batteroo arithmetic decoder for journalists:

The key is that most devices only tap a fraction of a battery's energy. Batteriser taps into the remaining energy that is usually thrown away. 

9/10 most definitely is a fraction - and that or better seems to be the industry standard for the energy used in an alkaline battery before reporting "low battery."

[LabSpokane]

I'm profoundly disappointed that Batteroo is still featuring wireless keyboards, trackpads, and TV remotes as devices that will benefit from the Batteriser. This in spite of testing and Batteroo's own admission that devices in which batteries last for years would be better off without the Batteriser.

[TheAmmoniacal]

It could have 92% efficiency while at the same time tapping into the remaining 8% of capacity! How many days +- would that be on a wireless keyboard that runs a year on a pair? Anyone want to do the math?

[LabSpokane]

It could have 92% efficiency while at the same time tapping into the remaining 8% of capacity! How many days +- would that be on a wireless keyboard that runs a year on a pair? Anyone want to do the math?

365x0.92x0.08= 27 days.

Keep in mind that the region of the last 8% of energy is a challenging operating area.  Smart people have worked long and hard at extending battery life as it is one of the most common consumer complaints. They stop short for reasons other than laziness and negligence.

[TheAmmoniacal]

They stop short because they don't have the trade secrets that Batteriser has, research so important it was attempted stolen!

[amyk]

taps into the up to 80 percent of remaining energy that is usually thrown away.

If you read this sentence carefully, they're not claiming that 80% of the energy in a battery is thrown away; they're claiming they can recover 80% of the "remaining energy", regardless of how much that actually is. In other words, they're saying their boost converter is only "up to" 80% efficient! Very sly wording there. Even in the quote from Rob, he doesn't mention exactly how much the Batteriser improves the situation

Of course they throw that all out when they parrot the "up to 800 percent" line later...

[Fungus]

Keep in mind that the region of the last 8% of energy is a challenging operating area.  Smart people have worked long and hard at extending battery life as it is one of the most common consumer complaints. They stop short for reasons other than laziness and negligence.

I assume that was a typo: It's not 8%, it's 80%.

[LabSpokane]

Keep in mind that the region of the last 8% of energy is a challenging operating area.  Smart people have worked long and hard at extending battery life as it is one of the most common consumer complaints. They stop short for reasons other than laziness and negligence.

I assume that was a typo: It's not 8%, it's 80%.

I'm talking about the 8% that is left in the battery after the initial 92% is used up.  Sorry for the confusion.  Much more of this and I'll have to ask Dr. Bob for a job.   

[LabSpokane]

taps into the up to 80 percent of remaining energy that is usually thrown away.

If you read this sentence carefully, they're not claiming that 80% of the energy in a battery is thrown away; they're claiming they can recover 80% of the "remaining energy", regardless of how much that actually is. In other words, they're saying their boost converter is only "up to" 80% efficient! Very sly wording there. Even in the quote from Rob, he doesn't mention exactly how much the Batteriser improves the situation

Of course they throw that all out when they parrot the "up to 800 percent" line later...

I'm going to run with the full statement that Batteroo continues to allege, which is that devices typically only extract 20% of the available energy out of a battery.  It is certainly sneaky wording, but Batteroo clearly alleges that devices are leaving 80% of the battery capacity unused in this instance.  And for the sake of repetitiveness and anyone just arriving, the Apple Keypad and Trackpad have been tested and they *do not* leave 80% of the battery's charge remaining after low voltage cutoff.  If there is some special circumstance where this happens, OK, but someone tell me what / when that is. 

[Godzil]

@FrankBuss: I took the liberty of adding to your awesome T-Shirt... Perhaps a little more OFFENSIVE. I've made a "few" adjustments!   



If you want to combine vector art and set up a T-Shirt Campaign, I'd like to donate ALL PROCEEDS TO DAVE to support his awesome EEVBlog!

It would be nicer on the back of the t-shirt and not in front, but that's definitely a good design

[Circlotron]

Gets a mention in EDN magazine -> http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-?_mc=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&cid=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&elq=8883029e0a2343869e525522381efeaa&elqCampaignId=24462&elqaid=27641&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b37b90cb8ddc48dab07eb1ddc94ac4a9

[Fungus]

Gets a mention in EDN magazine.

Yep.

In the comments left by Batteroo they say:

Please join our discussion and live feed this week. The Batteroo Inc inventor will be doing a full length lecture on the Batteriser technology for engineers. Hopefully this will help you understand the product, so you stop spreading BS allegations "Scam artists!" and other stupid claims. This will be your chance to truly disprove the Batteriser technology publicly.
Hope to see you there
Brad Jones

Aug 19, 2015 2:07 PM EDT

So it's 'this week', but they don't say where/when.

Does anybody know?

[EEVblog]

Gets a mention in EDN magazine -> http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-?_mc=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&cid=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&elq=8883029e0a2343869e525522381efeaa&elqCampaignId=24462&elqaid=27641&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b37b90cb8ddc48dab07eb1ddc94ac4a9

And there is Mr Brad Jones again, or whatever he's calling himself these days, once again talking as if he's part of Batteriser and official spokesperson for them.
This is the same guy that is using multiple names, and making physical threats against people and even a 13yo kid.
Batteriser must know what this guy is doing and by them allowing it speaks volumes.

[FrankBuss]

This live feed would be interesting Unfortunately Dave won't be allowed, because they don't acknowledge that he is an engineer

[EEVblog]

In the comments left by Batteroo they say:

Nope, this Brad Jones person (who uses multiple names) does not work for Batteroo.

So it's 'this week', but they don't say where/when.
Does anybody know?

Nope. And they didn't formally invite me, or anyone else it seems, apart from a post from this person who doesn't work for them on the EDN website that I haven't read until just now.
And they put out a message the other day saying their top priority is now some rubbish about doing R&D for the troops, so it's not going to happen. Or if it does they'll run it without notice and say nobody turned up to challenge them. Not that anyone should join their silly debate, just let them makes fools of themselves again. If they have technical details to present, let them just do it, it can stand on it's own merits.
Engineering like this isn't a debate, you either post data and reproducible facts and methods, or you don't.

[joseph.anand]

Here's the claimed response

[joseph.anand]

Am I the only one who thinks the statement made to justify the video untill "9:29" is wrong. I could not bear watching beyond "9:51". I think when someone remembers the basic physics principles of (1) Power(W)=Voltage(V)xCurrent(I) and (2) Power=Energy(E)/Time(T). he would not calculate area under a constant current plot and say that is the energy available.

[AmmoJammo]

why is there a 46 minute video?! it takes 30 seconds to put the butteriser onto a dead cell and show the device now works 

having 500 patents doesn't mean you're smart, it means you have no clue, or you'd be rich, and wouldn't need to keep coming up with new, stupid ideas!

[AmmoJammo]

I'm up to 8 minutes, and I have no f*cking clue what he's even trying to argue anymore.

Is he saying devices don't cut off at 1.1volts? is he saying they actually cut off at 1.3volts? do I have to keep watching this? 

[Fungus]

why is there a 46 minute video?! it takes 30 seconds to put the butteriser onto a dead cell and show the device now works 

Something about a snail.

PS: Who told him that "profile shots are more sincere"     (or whatever that 'profile' thing is all about)

[Fungus]

I'm up to 8 minutes, and I have no f*cking clue what he's even trying to argue anymore.

Up to 8 minutes it made sense, he actually showed he knew something about batteries.

The lies/horseshit/flimflam started about 9 minutes in. 

I literally have no idea what their point is. Maybe I'm not smart enough. 

[Circlotron]

Just watch the summary from 45:20.
It says that a device may pull transient spikes of load current and this may pull the battery down below the device shutdown voltage and so shut down prematurely.

Me? I'd just connect an ultracap across each cell.

[EEVblog]

Most discussion on this new video is happening on the original Batteriser thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/

[McBryce]

I'm up to 8 minutes, and I have no f*cking clue what he's even trying to argue anymore.

Is he saying devices don't cut off at 1.1volts? is he saying they actually cut off at 1.3volts? do I have to keep watching this? 

No I think his crazy claim is that devices that work down to 1.1V will also stop working if the battery can still supply 1.3V but a current surge causes the voltage to suddenly drop below 1.1V??

McBryce.