EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage

[Joule Thief]

Jeez, that was more information than I wanted.

now you can play with monkey too. 

Do I see a T shirt campaign coming?

[amyk]

Dave seemed interested in just how they have packed it all in such a difficult form factor, so perhaps he will do a teardown in due course and answer some of these questions.

I'm guessing it will be very similar in design to these which were available 3 years ago:

http://www.radiolocman.com/news/new.html?di=135250

[SL4P]

...of course Batteroo have nothing to lose if they pocket the funding and create nothing.
They can blame the negative publicity for the demise of the product before it ever appears, white-anting their market opportunities.  The 'legal' fees absorbed any funds left over from the 'development' and video production.

[TheElectricChicken]

http://www.radiolocman.com/news/new.html?di=135250

Texas Instruments  introduces ultra-small boost power module for smartphones and tablets

why do I suddenly want to sprinkle these on breakfast cereal to get a boost all day long...

[Smokey]

Everyone needs an "Energy Boost" sometimes!
http://www.jambajuice.com/menu-and-nutrition/menu/boosts/boosts/energy-boost

[Rasz]

I'm telling you that I have tested the devices that you have selected as leaving 80% of the available energy while reporting a dead battery.  And I'm finding out that these devices, are in fact, using 90 to 95% of the available energy in the battery.  Your claims regarding Apple's wireless trackpad and keypad do not match the data that I have obtained using standard practices.

Your device cannot work as claimed on the Apple trackpad and keypad because there is not enough energy in the battery once the battery reaches the device's cutoff voltage.

Anybody with Apple contacts? This is clearly a defamation and Apple could pursue legal action for portraying their devices as 'wasteful'.

[Muttley Snickers]

Unfortunately the same could be said in relation to particular vehicle types and no doubt a truck load of other things, in any case it's probably best that they are left with some money in the bank for product liability insurance and it wouldn't surprise me if certain product manufacturers included a warning or disclaimer advising against the use of the Batteriser in their products.

I'm no professor but I've never known a battery to exceed it's rated output voltage, can the same be said for this thing which is yet to prove itself and it's regulation circuitry must be absolutely guaranteed not to cause or inflict damage on consumer products.

Devices such as this need to be properly proven as expert proof before they can be safely deemed as foolproof, your average joe doesn't know any better and wont until his gadget is destroyed.

Muttley

[TheElectricChicken]

Everyone needs an "Energy Boost" sometimes!
http://www.jambajuice.com/menu-and-nutrition/menu/boosts/boosts/energy-boost

Blah. It's like real fruit, but totally ruined. Yum 
 
not exactly sports candy when there are all those chemicals.



real fruit for real people.

Battery cells for electric chickens.

[Muttley Snickers]

@TheElectricChicken...  I propose a new emoticon to be added to the EEVBlog forums, it should be a cymbal monkey bent over with an oscilloscope probe up it's arse. Can you make one like that? 

This is not quite right....
We were trying to educate them on probe compensation not probing constipation.....

[EEVblog]

Good work, making it clear that the batteriser is utter crap. One more thought, however:
Quite some loads do not draw a constant current or have a constant resistance over time,
 but instead they need more current to start off than they need to operate continuously
 (e.g, DC/DC-converters, motors, ...). This means that a battery with an increased internal
 resistance due to ageing will not be able to start off some loads that run OK from a
 DC lab power supply with zero internal resistance. Thats very plausible. The ridiculous
 thing is now that the batteriser makes things worse than better; a load (motor, converter, ...)
 that could marginally start from a battery will not even have then chance to start with
 the batteriser, because if needs even more power from the battery than the original load
(efficiency is never 100%) and the drop due internal battery resistance will be even higher.

Yes, solid point, it could make an otherwise still usable battery in the product actually no longer usable. The reverse of what is intended.

[EEVblog]

We do need permission of David L. Jones who drew the monkey I think

Probes the monkey (that's his name) is hereby public domain.

[TheElectricChicken]

Thank you David, my work is public domain and nobody owns the sine wave shape (even though I pinched it) so it's PD free for all 

[EEVblog]

And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal.  This was just posted on their YouTube page:

Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention

[/quote]

Utterly surreal all right.
What's to bet what they say will be essentially 100% correct, but completely beside the point and won't answer a thing.
I suspect they are doing this video not to appease the critics, but more to appease their financial backers and current and future investors (who almost certainly aren't technical, like the former CEO of K-Mart).
They do not have a single credible electronics design engineer who will back their claims, not a single one. It's sad.

[TheElectricChicken]

It reminds me of those pest buster things that they plug into the wall and claim they keep the bugs away from your house. Universities studied them and say not only do they not repel or kill anything at all, but that the warmth from the additional power consumption created a lovely place that the cockroaches preferred to live, to take advantage of the warmth. I remember they were debunked years ago, and yet they sell them at woolies today.

[edy]

It reminds me of those pest buster things that they plug into the wall and claim they keep the bugs away from your house. Universities studied them and say not only do they not repel or kill anything at all, but that the warmth from the additional power consumption created a lovely place that the cockroaches preferred to live, to take advantage of the warmth. I remember they were debunked years ago, and yet they sell them at woolies today.

Yes, and what about the "Anti-corrosion electronic modules" that connect to your car battery and claim to reduce rust on your car. The same crap they sold in 1970... 1980.... 1990.... 2000.... 2010. Well guess what, my dealership just tried to sell me the same B.S. device (although more up to date with a bunch of microprocessors in it, no less!) just a few months ago! And they are available in stores, no questions asked. Where are consumer protection laws?

Let's face it, this is something that nobody can successfully fight. It is just an ugly part of free world economics and business, and general lack of public electronics education (or at the very least some healthy skepticism to push people to learn and not trust everything they are told by salespeople).

[TheElectricChicken]

Yes, and what about the "Anti-corrosion electronic modules" that connect to your car battery and claim to reduce rust on your car. 

LOL, some mistakes are built to last. I would think that just using a wire connected to the anti-static strap that hangs down from the car would be as good as it gets when it comes to sacrificial anodes which are used on boats and pipes and hot water tanks at your house to good effect.

Still, nothing can beat using stainless steel body panels in the first place, then after 30 years there IS NO rust https://www.google.com.au/search?q=delorean&tbm=isch

There are not even anti-lemon laws or a bill of rights in australia.

To keep on-topic I predict that capitalism will allow the batteriser to last 10 times longer than your regular scam item. 

[FrankBuss]

I don't know if this is going to be their new video, it's only on their Vimeo account, the independent Batteriser Batteroo Youtube fan page didn't upload it so far:



Looks plausible, if the Garmin GPS has a really high battery cutoff voltage. They carefully avoid to mention this voltage in the video.

[Svuppe]

I am tempted to run down a pair of actual batteries, while logging the voltage all the way. That will have to wait until the weekend though.

Can't you do it this evening ? It will just take you 2 hours 

Oh, right. My bad 

On the serious side, I am currently running down a pair of NiMH cells in my Garmin eMap, logging the voltage with my new 34465A. Then we'll see if that result matches what I found using a lab supply, or not. I am pretty confident that I already know the answer to that one (and so do all of you), but nothing beats hard evidence.

[dcac]

I don't know if this is going to be their new video, it's only on their Vimeo account, the independent Batteriser Batteroo Youtube fan page didn't upload it so far:



Looks plausible, if the Garmin GPS has a really high battery cutoff voltage. They carefully avoid to mention this voltage in the video.

Already been discussed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg727261/#msg727261

[Falk]

btw. what means batteroo? Sounds like battery waterloo to me   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo

[FrankBuss]

We do need permission of David L. Jones who drew the monkey I think

Probes the monkey (that's his name) is hereby public domain.

T-Shirt with a high quality vector graphic version of it done, buy it here: http://teespring.com/probes-the-monkey

[LabSpokane]

And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal.  This was just posted on their YouTube page:

Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention

Utterly surreal all right.
What's to bet what they say will be essentially 100% correct, but completely beside the point and won't answer a thing.
I suspect they are doing this video not to appease the critics, but more to appease their financial backers and current and future investors (who almost certainly aren't technical, like the former CEO of K-Mart).
They do not have a single credible electronics design engineer who will back their claims, not a single one. It's sad.
[/quote]

Exactly. I firmly believe at this point that the emails and phone calls are flying. Right now is pretty much the drop dead date for holiday 2015 orders - which is not when you want everyone asking questions.  And investors will make phone calls. I periodically get "WTF are these people doing with my money?!" calls. So it's full tilt crisis mode at Batteroo.

[jancumps]

btw. what means batteroo? Sounds like battery waterloo to me   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo

Hey, that happened 50 km from where I live.

[AF6LJ]

And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal.  This was just posted on their YouTube page:

Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention

Utterly surreal all right.
What's to bet what they say will be essentially 100% correct, but completely beside the point and won't answer a thing.
I suspect they are doing this video not to appease the critics, but more to appease their financial backers and current and future investors (who almost certainly aren't technical, like the former CEO of K-Mart).
They do not have a single credible electronics design engineer who will back their claims, not a single one. It's sad.

Exactly. I firmly believe at this point that the emails and phone calls are flying. Right now is pretty much the drop dead date for holiday 2015 orders - which is not when you want everyone asking questions.  And investors will make phone calls. I periodically get "WTF are these people doing with my money?!" calls. So it's full tilt crisis mode at Batteroo.
[/quote]


Living in Kalifornia I am not as shocked as others here might be at this whole soap opera.
Being a minority (someone with more than three brain cells to rub together) in the land of Fruits and Nuts seeing the ridiculous is an hourly occurrence. This is rather tame in comparison.

[edy]

@FrankBuss: I took the liberty of adding to your awesome T-Shirt... Perhaps a little more OFFENSIVE. I've made a "few" adjustments!   



If you want to combine vector art and set up a T-Shirt Campaign, I'd like to donate ALL PROCEEDS TO DAVE to support his awesome EEVBlog!