EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Barny]

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/

[EEVblog]

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

[onlooker]

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

When a perfect exit strategy is at hand, there is less reason to use it before collecting all the additional moneys possible.

[Brumby]

I was also trying to work out why the delay - but it seems I couldn't see the wood for the trees...

When a perfect exit strategy is at hand, there is less reason to use it before collecting all the additional moneys possible.

How obvious was that answer.

[timb]

You know, earlier I was thinking about boost converters and it occurs to me that trying to boost <1V to 1.5V is kind of dumb. Why not 1.2V? Pretty much everything will run off NiMh cells which run at that voltage... It would be more efficient and allow them to generate more current.

To do this, they could use a boost converter that operates in "pass through" mode. By that I mean when the battery is new (~1.5V) the boost converter doesn't do anything; the MOSFET simply passes the voltage straight through until the battery discharges to a certain point (~1.2V), then it starts operating to keep the output at that level.

I know TI make some boost chips that do this. I've used one designed for LIon batteries (passes from 4.2V to 3.7V then boosts) and they work really well.

I can't think of a reason that wouldn't be the ideal way to implement a product like this... Sure it's not as flashy ("Look, the dead battery is now full!") but it would a actually work.


Sent from my Smartphone

[Delta]

Question:  The IGG mugs are just "backers", putting money into a project, and thus not legally entitled to receive an actual project.  BUT, what about the mugs who have pre-ordered?  Surely that is a straightforward purchase, will they be legally entitled to a full refund?

[Fungus]

Has anyone in the IGG comments or Facebook page even mentioned the failure of the patent or Energizer Trademark dispute yet?

I have. Looks like my comment vanished this week.


PS: "New campaign video"...?

[jippie]

PS: "New campaign video"...?

Yes I noticed too, the main video on the (closed) Indigogo page has changed. In contrast to earlier versions it is very clear to see now that the batterised batteries need some slight force to be pushed into the keyboard, which means it'll cost quite some effort to get them out. It shows several (uncoated, or clear coating) batterisers being inserted in couple product. Showing nice marketing wall posters; blahdibla; Warren (KMart) Flick explaining blahdibla. 15e9 batteries can reach to the moon and back, blahdibla...

Nothing new.

[EEVblog]

BUT, what about the mugs who have pre-ordered?  Surely that is a straightforward purchase, will they be legally entitled to a full refund?

Yes, but will get it only if:
a) Batteroo are pro-active enough to give it to them
or
b) They kick up a stink about it.

I'd bet that their website pre-orders are bugger-all anyway.

[EEVblog]

The next update will of course include the obligatory "well earned xmas break" message, and "we are now hard back at work delivering the best possible quality product for you".
And if they hang out long enough, the good'ol reliable Chinese new year is Feb 8th-15th or so 

[rich]

This extended story reminds me of a certain 20th century play...
Perhaps we should rename Batteriser to 'Godot', and the Roopahvar brothers fit nicely into the main characters.

"a tragicomedy in two acts" - The uncertainty of the reality they are in is definitely a common theme. (one of my fave playwrights btw)

[LabSpokane]

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company. Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

[ccs46]

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company. Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

[EEVblog]

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company.
Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

Indeed. But anyone looking to buy the company is already going to know their patent is failing, and their trademark is under attack.
Going public with "big battery" as an excuse for the delays will keep Joe Public from circling with pitch forks. It might even rally them into support mode.

[bills]

gee wiz it is  over  people  got ripped off  get over it .wish we could do better .
we knew  that this would the outcome .

[EEVblog]

gee wiz it is  over  people  got ripped off  get over it .

The show has only just begun! 

[LabSpokane]

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company.
Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

Indeed. But anyone looking to buy the company is already going to know their patent is failing, and their trademark is under attack.
Going public with "big battery" as an excuse for the delays will keep Joe Public from circling with pitch forks. It might even rally them into support mode.

I think you are right about the marketing portion, I just think that they will be spinning the lawsuit to pitch to the last, potential investors that may have given them slip at a cocktail party.  More investment is likely the only hope as I still feel that they are hopelessly undercapitalized for their commitments. 

[Brumby]

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

What iceberg?  Who's sinking?

The orchestra's still playing, so everything must be ok!   


Just one question .... where are the lifeboats?

[McBryce]

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

What iceberg?  Who's sinking?

The orchestra's still playing, so everything must be ok!   


Just one question .... where are the lifeboats?

And they're busy re-arranging the deckchairs...

McBryce.

[FrankBuss]

You know, earlier I was thinking about boost converters and it occurs to me that trying to boost <1V to 1.5V is kind of dumb. Why not 1.2V? Pretty much everything will run off NiMh cells which run at that voltage... It would be more efficient and allow them to generate more current.

Sounds like a good idea, but Batteriser says many devices stop working below 1.35 V But I guess the real reason is the target audience. Most are non-technical people and they can verify, that the Apple keyboard shows 100% again, when a dead battery is used with the Batteriser sleeve. Cool, I will recommend this product. They don't compare how long a device actually runs with and without the Batteriser, with fresh batteries and the same test conditions.

[Fungus]

Most are non-technical people and they can verify, that the Apple keyboard shows 100% again, when a dead battery is used with the Batteriser sleeve. Cool, I will recommend this product. They don't compare how long a device actually runs with and without the Batteriser, with fresh batteries and the same test conditions.

I disagree. I think many people will be so excited about owning a world-changing technology they'll instantly grab a flashlight (or whatever) and test how long it runs. They've drunk the advertising kool-aid, they'll be expecting it to go for at least a week.

The results will be impossible to misinterpret - it doesn't work! 

A few will do it a second time with a stopwatch and figure out that Batteriser gives less battery life than before.

This is such an obvious experiment that anybody with a working brain can think of it. It's also an experiment that bloggers will love to do.

[EEVblog]

This is such an obvious experiment that anybody with a working brain can think of it. It's also an experiment that bloggers will love to do.

Within a week or two of shipping, there will be a huge database of products with before/after testing.
It needs to be done right though.
The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative.
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

[lpickup]

Most are non-technical people and they can verify, that the Apple keyboard shows 100% again, when a dead battery is used with the Batteriser sleeve. Cool, I will recommend this product. They don't compare how long a device actually runs with and without the Batteriser, with fresh batteries and the same test conditions.

I disagree. I think many people will be so excited about owning a world-changing technology they'll instantly grab a flashlight (or whatever) and test how long it runs. They've drunk the advertising kool-aid, they'll be expecting it to go for at least a week.

And I have to disagree with that.  The general public (not the engineering crowd) would put these into their remotes, clocks, cordless mice, whatever and then convince themselves that they worked because batteries in those things don't die in a timeframe that's easily measurable.  More importantly, they will convince themselves that they actually do work because they spent good money of them.  These are probably the same people that continually buy into the infomercial crap on TV.  I would be highly surprised if any of them do any kind of quantitative measurements at all.  Why would they?  They saw the video where the GPS unit lasted 5 times as long!  There's your proof.

[McBryce]

Within a week or two of shipping, there will be a huge database of products with before/after testing.
It needs to be done right though.
The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative.
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

How can it be negative? If the bare battery is "dead" and it still doesn't work any longer with the batteriser attached, that would be 0% at worst, but not negative.

McBryce.

[EEVblog]

How can it be negative? If the bare battery is "dead" and it still doesn't work any longer with the batteriser attached, that would be 0% at worst, but not negative.

Doh, yeah, I was thinking of the with/without test.