EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[daveake]

I was going to let this all just die, but Ali has just spurred my interest again! 

Excellent :-)

[daveake]

No, no, didn't you read the learnéd gentleman's sage words? It is "constant circuitry", he does not recommend the use of Batteroo in devices with "constant circuitry".

So does that mean that they are only suitable for use in devices where the circuitry is constantly being re-wired?  Probably.

Or being melted, via an overheating batteroo ?

He's a watch salesman arguing engineering in a room of engineers; not going well for him is it ?

[Hensingler]

Dave, you really ought to have criticised Ali Roohparvar for this comment

And regarding the UL test video - you clearly did not watch the UL test vs TechCatalyst test. Our test, we had a side by side comparison of the GPS. Both GPS has a rig that would tap the screen to wake them up every 15 seconds.

Their test did not have side by side GPS units and both tests had a mechanism to keep tapping the screen.

You might also ask why there was no mention of not being recommended for constant current circuitry before they scammed $400k on indiegogo and why there is currently no mention of it on their web site?

[amspire]

Still no interest in even the simplest test of the reverse diode heating problem after the first Batteroo in a chain shuts down? (all the current passes through the intrinsic diode with a 0.6V, 0.8V, ?V  drop)

Still no interest in seeing if the Batteroo can latch up?

It just really puzzles me. The Batteroo may have bigger problems then its efficiency, and yet all we talk about is Garmin GPS's and toy trains. Not sure the last time I have seen the accuracy specifications for a toy train. Do Keysight sell a reference calibrated toy train? It is also just so easy to fake a test - even one that is continuously recorded. Flatten an alkaline battery, recharge it back to 1.6V, make it look like it is in a sealed pack and you now have a perfect battery to fake a short battery life. I totally trust Dave's toy train video tests, but in general, I look at most of these tests and have more questions then answers. I am left feeling - "if only there was a technical forum somewhere that could characterize the Batteroo according to calibrated lab-type measurements".

Toy trains and GPS's is where Batteroo want the argument to be, because they can keep the argument going around in circles until the general public is dizzy. If they can fool half the people half the time, they are billionaires.

If it turns out the maximum current of an AAA Batteroo is 300mA in a multi battery device because of intrinsic reverse diode thermal problems, that is pretty huge, since Batteroo have never wanted to specify any limits. Maybe there is no problem at all. No one knows at the moment, and I suspect that state of affairs suits Batteroo perfectly.

[ludzinc]

.... The Batteroo may have bigger problems then its efficiency ....

Than!  Misuse of then / than is starting to really peeve me these days.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Than-and-Then

And while I'm at it, YOU KIDS STAY OFF MY LAWN!

[amspire]

.... The Batteroo may have bigger problems then its efficiency ....

Than!  Misuse of then / than is starting to really peeve me these days.

That is only the first second third fourth fifth typing mistake I have ever made. OK, I admit it, I am really bad at typing.

[StillTrying]

I think at least one tester has measured a batteriser in reverse as a 0.6V diode, but not at high current.

[Sonny_Jim]

Been following this thread for a while now and seen the ebb and flow, so here's my two cents:

Dave, I can totally understand why your enthusiasm dipped, after all, even shooting fish in a barrel gets boring and tedious after a while.  It's not fun being negative about something, even if the product is amusing terrible.  So it's nice to see you haven't let the b*ggers get you down too much and have found some renewed enthusiasm.

Keep it up, fight them with facts and let them dig their own holes, as they seem pretty good at that already.

On a side note, I thought the competition was a $500 prize for the best video, from this wording it seems it is now $50 for the best 10 videos?

Submit your fun video to batteroo.com/contest for a chance to win $500 every month! Here are some $50 customer appreciation contest award winners. We chose 10 customers last month to win $50!

EDIT:  Ah I think I see what's going on here.  The first month they said:

Batteroo Contest Award Winners! Submit a fun video for a chance to win $500, every month!
1st place: Justin Franzino $500
2nd place: John Oliver $400
3rd place: Paul Cuni $400

They've obviously realised that they can't afford $1300/month on it, so have slashed the total prize fund to $500 and used their magic weasel wording.  They might want to update the wording on their website though:

Fill in your contact information below and submit the URL link with your image, or video for a chance to win our $500 pre-paid gift cards. We pick a winner EVERY MONTH!

[amspire]

I think at least one tester has measured a batteriser in reverse as a 0.6V diode, but not at high current.

Yes, as far as I know that is it. Up till then, I don't think anyone had even looked at how the Batteroo/Batteriser looks to a circuit when it shuts down.

Where does an ordinary person go to get a clear technical description of how the Batteroo really works - for good or bad? Unfortunately not here. There are partial descriptions and tests buried somewhere in the 344 pages of this thread and in the 24 pages of the Batteroo testing thread, but somehow the need to destroy Batteroo has become more important than impartially evaluating the technology - the good and the bad.

[Sonny_Jim]

somehow the need to destroy Batteroo has become more important than impartially evaluating the technology - the good and the bad.

The technology does not need evaluating, it's a very old idea that's including in many, many devices already.

Where does an ordinary person go to get a clear technical description of how the Batteroo really works

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_thief


The point was the claims they were making were complete nonsense and had no basis in reality.

[samgab]

Wow, this poor old dead horse has been beaten back to life again for another lap... 

[amspire]

somehow the need to destroy Batteroo has become more important than impartially evaluating the technology - the good and the bad.

The technology does not need evaluating, it's a very old idea that's including in many, many devices already.

It is a new product - no one has ever made a battery booster clip before that can fit in a standard battery holder. The questions I have been asking cannot be answered by looking at any "old idea". That is why I am asking them.

[kalleboo]

Still no interest in even the simplest test of the reverse diode heating problem after the first Batteroo in a chain shuts down? (all the current passes through the intrinsic diode with a 0.6V, 0.8V, ?V  drop)

Still no interest in seeing if the Batteroo can latch up?

I replied to you once before, if you're really interested, write up a simple test plan, using common hobbyist gear, with expected results, and one of us with a few batterisers lying around will be sure to try it.

Since I haven't seen a test plan from you (apologies if I just missed it), I can only assume you're more interested in arguing than the actual answers.

[amspire]

Still no interest in even the simplest test of the reverse diode heating problem after the first Batteroo in a chain shuts down? (all the current passes through the intrinsic diode with a 0.6V, 0.8V, ?V  drop)

Still no interest in seeing if the Batteroo can latch up?

I replied to you once before, if you're really interested, write up a simple test plan, using common hobbyist gear, with expected results, and one of us with a few batterisers lying around will be sure to try it.

Since I haven't seen a test plan from you, I can only assume you're more interested in arguing than the actual answers.

I have described tests several times. Below are two of my posts on this. I wasn't aware I had to send you a test plan. The first post goes back a bit before anyone had tested for a reverse diode junction on the output, so I cover the possibility that it goes open on shutdown.

I am more interested in answers then arguing. The main question I have been asking is "Is the Batteroo capable of latchup or failure in a multi-battery environment." There is no argument involved, because at the moment, I doubt anyone in this forum knows.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1123123/#msg1123123
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1128604/#msg1128604

Edit: And this one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097242/#msg1097242

[Fungus]

And of course, Mine and Frank's toy trains are not acceptable, but their toy train test is 
I have another AA toy train I might try, and I have a the exact same Golf G3 GPS on the way.
I was going to let this all just die, but Ali has just spurred my interest again! 

Can you figure out a way to set something on fire with Batterisers?

Walmart, etc., might risk selling a product that underperforms but no way will they sell something dangerous. Can we figure out a plausible way (ie. reasonably likely to happen) to short-circuit a battery with Batterisers.

nb. It might need two batterisers in series or something.

[EEVblog]

Can you figure out a way to set something on fire with Batterisers?
Walmart, etc., might risk selling a product that underperforms but no way will they sell something dangerous. Can we figure out a plausible way (ie. reasonably likely to happen) to short-circuit a battery with Batterisers.
nb. It might need two batterisers in series or something.

Two Batterisers in series inside a tight metal case. If the upper Batteriser has a burr that shorts out to the metal then it'll likely short via the case ground.
Just the act of sliding the Batteriser into a tight metal compartment might be enough to wear off the insulating coating.

[bktemp]

What happens if you have two Batterisers side by side in a battery holder and rotate one of them?
Since they are in series if one Batteriser touches the other one and if the coating has been damaged they will short one battery.

[EEVblog]

So I have a theory, this is the guy Bob turned to to design the Batteriser ASIC, the author of the hilarious puff piece on LinkedIn.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alan-elbanhawy-02522622/
They both used to work at Fairchild for a 4 years overlap, and he's now power system and DC-DC expert at Exar who make boost converter chips among other things.
Once that investment funding came though, who you gonna call?
I recon Exar were contracted to design the chip.

[rrinker]

Wow, this poor old dead horse has been beaten back to life again for another lap... 

 But if this were a Monty Python sketch, it would be the Roohparavar family saying "I'm not dead yet!"

Of course they will never admit defeat, they don't dare admit the product was flawed from the beginning. At most they may eventually just quietly disappear - until Bob's next venture.

[EEVblog]

Of course they will never admit defeat, they don't dare admit the product was flawed from the beginning.

They can't, they have taken VC money, twice now it seems, so they have to ride this donkey all the way into town.

[Hensingler]

So I have a theory, this is the guy Bob turned to to design the Batteriser ASIC, the author of the hilarious puff piece on LinkedIn.

But regardless why would this

Accomplished electrical engineer / engineering manager and director with superior technical, managerial and people skills.

tarnish his reputation by blatantly promoting a scam product?

He looks close to retirement so maybe he doesn't care - was he bribed or maybe blackmailed

[Brumby]

Let's not get too carried away with conjecture.

[EEVblog]

From:

This is funny, especially Blocco's last sentence 

[AmmoJammo]

"Please direct any questions you have regarding your specific orders to support@batteroo.com – Batteroo customer support team will promptly help you."

Is not an automated response, its someone copying and pasting it....

Response times are anywhere from the same day, to 3 days later... an automated reply isn't going to be delayed like that...

[Brumby]

Response times are anywhere from the same day, to 3 days later... an automated reply isn't going to be delayed like that...

Not if it's turned on all the time.

I have visions of some lackey coming into the office, turning on the computer and only firing up the email program once or twice a week.....