EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Mr.B]

Not sure what to do with the other ones for now...

There are quite a few people on this forum that would appreciate some for testing.
They will share their results with the community.
I am pretty sure there are a number of people in the EU, so that will make postage cheap.

[Fungus]

See you again in few months 

Not sure what to do with the other ones for now...

Surely you own something that doesn't take months to discharge a battery.

(If not, either go to a local toy store and get something or send a few to somebody else...  )

[Delta]

RFZ, please try them in an AM radio...

[RFZ]

RFZ, please try them in an AM radio...

Thx, good idea! I should have a FM/AM radio that takes 4xAA... Just have to find it now

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

[daveake]

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

Sounds similar to

[Hensingler]

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

I already posted in the testing thread:

"What does the clock work on where he is? Probably WWVB at 60kHz with 70kW output for the whole of the united states. You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

[Twoflower]

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

I already posted in the testing thread:

"What does the clock work on where he is? Probably WWVB at 60kHz with 70kW output for the whole of the united states. You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

Probably his clock is not looking for the US time signal but the DCF77 from Mainflingen Germany. Transmission frequency is 77.5kHz with 50kW. Different station, probably same problem.  According to your flag (UK) you might be able to receive that station.

[EEVblog]

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

Our first failure with an RF device?
I've got a AAA weather station, will have to try them.

[SL4P]

The recent posts lead me to ask...
"I wonder what Batteriser/roo's initial design test & validation was performed with...?"

- Don't say 'Probes the Monkey" - that was simply a demo platform.

Of course we all know the answer, but how on earth could someone who claims to have various certificates be so completely and utterly wrong on virtually every level of his product design, engineering and development?   (Forget the truth-in-marketing - that was worse than a joke.)

[Cerebus]

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

I already posted in the testing thread:

"What does the clock work on where he is? Probably WWVB at 60kHz with 70kW output for the whole of the united states. You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

The poster, RFZ, is in Germany, so the most likely time transmitter is DCF77 near Frankfurt am Main, very definitely not WWVB on the far side of the Atlantic Ocean. It's a nominal 50 kW and is easily receivable in London (I used to use a wristwatch that synced from DCF77).

[djos]

Our first failure with an RF device?
I've got a AAA weather station, will have to try them.

It's a shame we don't have radio time clock broadcasts in Australia as I've got a AA weather station with radio clock functionality from Oregon scientific that I'd have loaned you for a test.

[RFZ]

Hey all: The clock in question uses DCF77 (77,5 kHz) and 433 MHz for the outdoor sensor. Both still without a signal...

I found my AM/FM radio that takes 4xAA batteries. With the batterisers on I found some FM stations and they sounded normal to me... On AM (5-15MHz, 146-281 KHz, 531-1602 KHz) I just got lots of noise and buzzing sounds, but I'm not sure if there are any AM stations I could possibly receive... Since the radio won't power on correctly without the batterisers (point for them, but I guess it's because the batterisers make better contact on the badly corroded tabs) I have to clean the tabs and also make a more repeatable test setup because I can even hear my phone changing the AM sound when recording next to the radio...

[FrankBuss]

I found my AM/FM radio that takes 4xAA batteries. With the batterisers on I found some FM stations and they sounded normal to me... On AM (5-15MHz, 146-281 KHz, 531-1602 KHz) I just got lots of noise and buzzing sounds, but I'm not sure if there are any AM stations I could possibly receive...

I can hear at least 3 radio stations on AM without too much distortions with my cheap AM/FM radio here in Cologne: a German station, and I guess BBC UK, and something which sounds Spanish. But quality depends heavily on the time of the day. Maybe buy some fresh batteries, just to compare it with the Batteroo sleeve. Because EC Projects and you reported problems with the radio controlled clock, I wouldn't be surprised if AM radio sounds awful.

FM radio is usually a lot stronger, so that it should not be that worse. Nice anecdote: I know someone who says he could hear an occasionally bus contention in a digital system he was testing with an AM radio, which didn't show up on a scope (this was the old times, without the cheap modern scopes nowadays with millions of waveforms per second, if you were lucky and got a digital scope at all).

[madires]

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser

That's #2 for the radio clock category. The outdoor sensor is usually 433MHz. A few more and we can conclude that Batteroo sleeves don't work with radio clocks or weather stations. Please check other short range devices in the ISM bands too.

[McBryce]

As I discovered when designing and building my DCF77 Radio Nixie Clock - Any DC/DC Boosters anywhere near the antenna pretty much wipe out the signal.

McBryce.

[Hensingler]

As I discovered when designing and building my DCF77 Radio Nixie Clock - Any DC/DC Boosters anywhere near the antenna pretty much wipe out the signal.

As expected. Anything using a ferrite rod antenna will likely be very badly affected. That doesn't explain 433MHz problems. Probably the substantial and unexpected ripple from the batteriseroos messing up synthesiser PLLs.

[bktemp]

That doesn't explain 433MHz problems. Probably the substantial and unexpected ripple from the batteriseroos messing up synthesiser PLLs.

Only the more better ones use a superhet receiver with a PLL synthesiser, a simple (super)regenerative receiver is more common, because it is cheaper and needs less power. The ripple of the Batteriser probable affects the operation or the low level output signal of the regenerative receiver.

[f4eru]

You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

That Batteroo admits they didn't do any EMC testing ?

[amirm]

Can't Dave or someone else with a spectrum analyzer quickly measure the radiated emissions pretty easily to add some meat to the discussion here?

And are there any regulatory marks on the packaging or the product?

[AndyC_772]

Nobody has shown pictures of any that I've seen. A complaint to regulatory authorities could, if they have the capacity to investigate, end very badly for Batteroo.

What's particularly odd is there's no real reason why the Batteriser should fail regulatory testing. They *could* have had EMC and safety testing carried out, and it *could* have passed. It's just not that technically difficult, or expensive, or time consuming.

The evidence suggests they just haven't bothered, and that's pathetic, IMHO.

[Hensingler]

Can't Dave or someone else with a spectrum analyzer quickly measure the radiated emissions

No one can 'quickly' measure anything which is why test labs charge $1000+ a day.

Nobody has shown pictures of any that I've seen.

They did radiated emission testing on a prototype with a stupid 1k load. The results are posted on their website.

The testing was garbage with the switcher spending most of its time shut down and the other problem is what is a realistic test environment? What is a realistic antenna to hang on it to represent a worst case application? How do you do anything below 30MHz?  Do you say it needs to have a remote load and do conducted on the wires?

[amirm]

No one can 'quickly' measure anything which is why test labs charge $1000+ a day.

That's a different animal.  Not asking for a controlled environment to measure compliance.  We know the frequency of the RF transmitter for the weather station.  A spectrum analysis of before and after batterizer would show its contribution pretty easily.  Dave has the Rigol analyzer which easily covers 433 Mhz as does his Tek scope.

[bktemp]

I don't think Batteriser violates EMC rules.
Most likely all the problems with receivers is the low frequency ripple (the burst rate of the PFM operation). It is below the EMC testing range, but many battery powered devices rely on the batteries as a clean power supply. DCF77 or the regenerative rf receivers require a really clean power source (<10mVpp ripple) to operate correctly, otherwise the sensitivity will be reduced or they won't work at all.

[dr_frost_dk]

Awesome comment, hope someone posts the video again on the indiegogo page

[StuUK]

Awesome comment, hope someone posts the video again on the indiegogo page

Crikey, $19 either an idiot or someone who wants to test them....