EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[lpickup]

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

Most of the devices consumers use don't even have gauges, and even when they do, they are mostly of the type that only has 3 segments that are already almost useless even without the Batteroo.  And even then I would argue that these aren't mission critical devices where it's important to be able to predict exactly when the battery will die.  I've got packs of AA, AAA and 9V batteries lying around, and when a particular device dies, I replace the battery.  While I don't use a wireless keyboard, I would probably ignore the battery gauge and just wait until it stopped working and replace the batteries then.  I couldn't care less if the battery gauge went from 100-0 in 10 seconds.

Yes, I realize that certain devices and applications require a battery gauge, and certainly safety applications where it is critical (smoke & CO2 sensors, even though those don't have guages but alarms that sound when the battery is low).  There has been plenty of talk about pro photographers and musicians and DJs that need the accurate battery gauge.  This is true, but this is not the average consumer buying cheap crap at Wal Mart or the dollar store that is the target audience of the Batteriser.  Such a video would be damning for sure, but I just don't think the average user is really going to care.

I think it is sufficient to simply point out (and Dave has already done this) that using Batterisers in mission critical devices like smoke alarms (and let's not forget military applications--remember how Batteroo was promoting Batterisers to the military so troops didn't have to be carrying around a huge load of AA batteries?    ) could have disastrous results.

[f4eru]

It's not about the usual battery gauge usage.
It's about Batterizer trying to sell the battery gauge going up for their "proof" there's more energy left, which still has to be debunked in an understandable manner.

[lpickup]

It's not about the usual battery gauge usage.
It's about Batterizer trying to sell the battery gauge going up for their "proof" there's more energy left, which still has to be debunked in an understandable manner.

Good point.  I suppose it would be sufficient to have a short video removing a "discharged" battery from a device with a gauge, putting the Batteriser on it, showing the gauge jump to "full", and then 5 minutes later showing the device dying.

[bktemp]

+1 for a video explaining/showing how the Batteriser manipulates the battery gauge (explaing the difference between voltage and power/energy so that the avarage Batterizer user can understand it).
That helps probably much more than debunking each claim individually.

I would also like to see a test using the monkey. Why? Because it sounds like fun and it isn't any arbitrary item but was chosen by Batteriser. Since Dave has already prepared the monkey it should be easy to do, maybe in the same way as the train test in one long video.

[spider]

Rofl
Until a few days ago they like almost every single tweet I mentioned them in.

Uh Oh, what'd you been tweeting to them?

I just tweeted 3 or 4 people who posted something like "I am gonna save batteries now" Dave's or Frank's videos.
And I asked batteroo why they did not use a camera from a popular brand.

In my opinion just some moderate criticism.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser

The ic could be the same, but the layout looks different to the AAA Batteriser:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209
It would be interesting to see if the circuit is identical.
The pinout looks similar, but the AA Batteriser has 2 inductors.
Could you measure if both inductors are connected in parallel or if there are two independent boost conveters? You probably have to remove one inductor when doing the measurement, because both inductors are connected to the same input voltage.

the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

I would say that this is a two-phase synchronous boost converter. Just one phase is used in the smaller AAA implementation.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[dexters_lab]

just been having a little tinker around with another 'riser i depotted and setup running on my bench PSUs. The top display is the input the lower is the output

the output voltage does scale with the input so there will be some kind of battery gauge movement for the device, i don't have time right now to do anything more so i will try and have a look over the weekend

[JiggyNinja]

It only puts out 1.35V?

What about all those products they mentioned (but never specified) that cut out at 1.4V!!! It's unusable for those!

[P_Doped]

I've seen references to fairly high current coming from the Batteroo and high temps under short circuit condition. 

Comments on boost converters:

Without special circuitry a boost converter is not protected against short circuits.  With a basic boost implementation, the boost circuit will have a diode or a PFET (with a parasitic parallel body diode) as the output switch.  With a low power, high efficiency boost as the Batteroo, I'd bet it has the PFET implementation.  The body of this PFET is often just connected to the output, assuming the output to be higher than the input.  That places the parasitic diode to be "pointed" to the output, reversed biased under normal operating conditions.  Under short circuit, that assumption is violated and there is a low impedance path from input to output of the ESR of the inductor and the (likely) PFET switch body diode in series.  It would be interesting to see if this is the case with the Batteroo.

Also, even if extra circuitry has been added in to protect against the (likely) PFET switch body diode being pointed to the output under conditions where the output is less than the input, there is also the control problem encountered under short circuit.  The boost control circuitry will recognize a large error voltage present.  In response, it will want to bring ever increasing current through the boost inductor.  If the current limiting circuitry isn't designed properly, the expected current limit can be exceeded by quite some amount.

Scope probing of the IC side of the inductor would show whether there is any switching action under short circuits; current probing through the inductor (takes a modification of lifting up one side of the inductor and inserting a current loop) will show the loop response when the output short is asserted.

Don't know if any of this is applicable to the Batteroo implementation, but there are boost design issues which can cause excessive current draw from the battery, not just an insulation short through the sleeve.

[dexters_lab]

It only puts out 1.35V?

What about all those products they mentioned (but never specified) that cut out at 1.4V!!! It's unusable for those!

well nobody believed that 1.4v cutout anyway!

though i did kind of expect it to be a fixed output after all the discussions, i checked with the other batterisers i have and they seem to work the same way

[Godzil]

It's not google that made the mistake. The French writer says that the battery can't hold a current of 1.2V. He should use the word 'tension' instead of 'courant'.

That word has exactly the same usages as the English 'current'. Do you know enough French syntax and semantics to be sure which usage is 'current' as measured in amps and 'current' as in 'at the/this moment'? Plus, which of us hasn't occasionally said 'current' when they meant voltage or power. The structure of the sentence in question is sufficiently complex that I wasn't going to dare at a proper translation - there are at least two words that rely on you working out if they are used as verbs, nouns or adjectives and also working out their gender before you can say what they mean.

I really do hate French, even though it's the language I know best after English. I did something like 6 years of French at school and hated every minute. It was such a painful experience that I just assumed I was useless at anything other than English; then I spent a week in Germany, almost automatically learned everyday please/thankyou/"I'll have have the Hunter's Chicken with noodles and also a beer please" type German with no effort. It wasn't me that was broken, it was bloody French!

Thanks for pointing my mistake with constat?observation, i was tired when I did the translation and I made a mistake, that can happen (my mind wan't finding the correct work, I left the French in place and forgot to proofread the translation before sending).

And as being French, I think I understand pretty well that language. As jancumps is from Belgium I think it have a high chance he is a native French speaker. And "courant" in French is for current (as in amps), not voltage (as in volt).
And yes there are a lot of people that make the mistake, but no one a bit serious when speaking about electronic, at least not in such an article.

[Cerebus]

Since there's no official EU distributor, I believe it's technically the customer who is the importer, and who therefore carries responsibility for ensuring the product is CE marked. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer is more along the lines of "you shouldn't buy this" rather than "they shouldn't sell this to you".

From memory, I believe that the responsibility for CE marking falls on the 'person' that 'makes available for sale' a product in the EU. i.e. There is a commercial element beyond merely importing something for personal use.

Ah, found it! Here's the wording from an (arbitrary) EU directive:

‘Placing on the market’ means making a product available for the first time on the Community market with a view to its distribution or use within the Community, whether for reward or free of charge and irrespective of the selling technique;

That's not quite the same as I just said but 'placing on the market' definately carries a very different implication than merely importing for personal use.

[Cerebus]

Thanks for pointing my mistake with constat?observation, i was tired when I did the translation and I made a mistake, that can happen (my mind wan't finding the correct work, I left the French in place and forgot to proofread the translation before sending).

And as being French, I think I understand pretty well that language. As jancumps is from Belgium I think it have a high chance he is a native French speaker. And "courant" in French is for current (as in amps), not voltage (as in volt).
And yes there are a lot of people that make the mistake, but no one a bit serious when speaking about electronic, at least not in such an article.

French? Really? Then I apologise, but to me (and others) it looked like Google's cack-handed efforts at translation rather than the English of a non-English speaker.

There's a rule for professional translators that they only translate into their native language. (Learned from an old colleague who was a Thai->English translator and had a Thai wife who was an English->Thai translator.) One only has to read a single 'chinglish' manual to realise why that's a good rule. For casual, as opposed to professional, use it's OK to ignore that rule but only, I think, if you have a truly good grasp of the target language. In your English translation you missed out some subtleties in the original that even I, as a very poor French student, could spot. I think you owe it to the original author to get the translation right if you're going to criticise them publicly .

I hope this doesn't come over as too harsh or over critical. It's not intended to be; merely to say 'caution and care required'. I'm fighting the end of a migraine headache as I type this and I know that my language skills take a hit when I've got one.

[dr_frost_dk]

It only puts out 1.35V?

What about all those products they mentioned (but never specified) that cut out at 1.4V!!! It's unusable for those!

well nobody believed that 1.4v cutout anyway!

though i did kind of expect it to be a fixed output after all the discussions, i checked with the other batterisers i have and they seem to work the same way

Have you tested input voltages from 0.1V to 1.6V to see what efficiency and output voltage it gives

[P_Doped]

Lets see how long this comment will stay up before it is deleted.

Indie Black
Do you have any comment on why the product performed so poorly in this test?

That comment has been removed now.

[EEVblog]

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

It's a big deal because they don't mention it.
People will at least be aware of a semi-usable battery gauge before Batteriser and now completely non-functional afterwards. Many will blame their product being faulty.
And they are tricking people into thinking 100% battery gauge level means increased battery life, when in all likelihood they will get reduced battery life.

[trophosphere]

well nobody believed that 1.4v cutout anyway!

though i did kind of expect it to be a fixed output after all the discussions, i checked with the other batterisers i have and they seem to work the same way

Have you tested input voltages from 0.1V to 1.6V to see what efficiency and output voltage it gives

I always thought that when the output voltage of a converter starts "tracking" its input that means the converter is just failing to regulate. If that is the case then I bet if you put a scope on it the output would look even nastier than what it would look while outputting the correct voltage.

[FrankBuss]

just been having a little tinker around with another 'riser i depotted and setup running on my bench PSUs. The top display is the input the lower is the output

the output voltage does scale with the input so there will be some kind of battery gauge movement for the device, i don't have time right now to do anything more so i will try and have a look over the weekend

Looks similar to what I measured, see here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221

But I measured a slightly higher output voltage for 1 V input voltage, and interestingly constant over load changes. Maybe you should measure input and output voltage directly at the battery with a multimeter (four-terminal sensing). There are losses on both sides, which adds up, especially when you try it with higher currents. 5 A would be fun.

[amyk]

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

It's a big deal because they don't mention it.
People will at least be aware of a semi-usable battery gauge before Batteriser and now completely non-functional afterwards. Many will blame their product being faulty.
And they are tricking people into thinking 100% battery gauge level means increased battery life, when in all likelihood they will get reduced battery life.

Given how the output voltage is scaling with the input (but higher), it's almost as if they thought of that... I still think it's a pretty useless product, but that point really deserves more testing. So far everyone who has tested them has seen the output isn't a constant 1.5V.

The fact that the AA version is 2-phase does suggest they may really have a custom IC in there, as I can't find anything similar from a quick search... or it could be an existing IC run outside of its published specs (i.e. its Vref might not be fully powered) to give that input-dependent output voltage.

[PeterL]

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

It's a big deal because they don't mention it.
People will at least be aware of a semi-usable battery gauge before Batteriser and now completely non-functional afterwards. Many will blame their product being faulty.
And they are tricking people into thinking 100% battery gauge level means increased battery life, when in all likelihood they will get reduced battery life.

To make it worse, Batteroo uses this misconception in their advantage. Their Apple keyboard video says it all. Almost all the positive feedback that Batteroo gets seemed to be based on what people saw on their battery gauge, and then Bob always nods along saying things  like "glad we could help".

[Ontaelio]

There's a rule for professional translators that they only translate into their native language.

Sorry for the OT, but no. The best translations are achieved when working in pair: the translator is native in source language, the editor is native in target one (both having good knowledge in both languages). I think your Thai-English friends work this way, or at least help each other. This is especially true with fiction, where the translator may miss nuances in the original text. And even more true for hard-to-grasp languages like Chinese (or even Russian). In RL such pairs are rare due to budgetary reasons, so clients prefer to work with target-native translators: it gives better results in terms of readability, but not translation accuracy (which no one really cares about).

[Godzil]

Could I ask for anyone in the EU/UK that have AA sleeve to lend me one for a some test? I would like to test it in the device I mentioned earlier (the Bandai WonderSwan), and make a timelapse video of it

[Sonny_Jim]

Don't know if this is just an outdated database entry, but searching for the UPC barcode on the Batteroo sleeve package results in this entry:

http://www.upcitemdb.com/upc/853577006001 : "Slim Edge 300 Thread Count Bamboo Sheet Set"

Some online marketplaces require that you have a UPC for each item you want to sell, so it's *very* common for unscrupulous companies to use barcodes that don't belong to them.

EDIT:  If you look on the GS1 database (who issue out barcodes) it's registered correctly:



EDIT2:

Another note of interest, the address given on the GS1 database is actually for SKTA, which is one of their investors I believe?  A lot of different companies.

Do Batteroo not have their own offices?
http://sktainnopartners.com/contact/
http://www.gridmaven.com/contact-us/
http://www.entrixco.com/m/about_en.html
https://www.yelp.com/biz/excelics-semicondtr-sunnyvale
https://www.linkedin.com/company/etopus-technology-inc.

[Stupid Beard]

Another note of interest, the address given on the GS1 database is actually for SKTA, which is one of their investors I believe?  A lot of different companies.

Do Batteroo not have their own offices?

SKTA provide office space  to the companies they invest in and they're all in one place. This was covered possibly multiple times in the thread already, but I don't recall exactly where in the 327 pages

[RFZ]

Wohoo, a load of Batteroo goodness arrived today
As I already said on August 15, 2015, I do have a LCD weather station / clock that starts to get really dim at 1.29V per cell. I've now put two new AAA batteries in together with two batterisers and saved two from the same batch for the next time.
Since I expect the LCD to go from "good readable" to "almost dead" within few hours / days with the batterisers on, I'll count the days from now on to this point. Afterwards, I will put the saved AAA batteries in without the batterisers and check the display readability after the time I got from the first run. I hope the result will be clear...

See you again in few months 

Not sure what to do with the other ones for now...