EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Wytnucls]

I think it would be more cost-effective to break into Batteroo's office. It's been done before...
(Just kidding of course, if it's not apparent)

[Fungus]

I think it would be more cost-effective to break into Batteroo's office. It's been done before...
(Just kidding of course, if it's not apparent)

Apparently there's thousands of boxes of Batterisers in there. 

[Kalvin]

I'll personally add an additional $10 to the bounty, if *Wayne* will send his units to Dave.

Edit: If every regular poster in this thread adds another $10 it might be an offer Wayne can't refuse.

I can already see where this is heading to. If Dave gets the Batterisers from Wayne, Bob can then say: "No, those were just pre-production samples for the marketing purposes only. The real devices [which were shipped to the campaign backers but were lost in the mailing process] will perform as advertised." I wouldn't spend any money on Wayne's devices.

Addition: This may also be a nice bite. If Dave did a video on the Wayne's Batterisers, the Batteroo will get a free of charge good information what to improve in the design before they actually start manufacturing the devices. My wild guess is that they are completely clueless how to make that device work, and they haven't manufactured nor shipped anything at all.

[Fungus]

Looks like Wayne is still helping to protect Bob's reputation on IGG:

[Fungus]

I can already see where this is heading to. If Dave gets the Batterisers from Wayne, Bob can then say: "No, those were just pre-production samples for the marketing purposes only. The real devices [which were shipped to the campaign backers but were lost in the mailing process] will perform as advertised." I wouldn't spend any money on Wayne's devices.

Agree. Wayne's units aren't worth a lot of money from a debunking point of view.

$100 is already very generous.

[lpickup]

Even before Wayne's latest "test", I think he has proven the worthiness of the Batteriser to the target audience with his unscientific flashlight/torch test.

Wayne got his flashlight to work longer with the Batteriser installed than without it.

Sure, we can argue that, well, the brightness was really dimmer all along because the Batteriser limited the current draw.  We can insist that the light output be accurately measured or the current draw be accurately measured, or that the test be done with a resistor, or a dummy load of some kind that can provide a constant resistance, constant current, constant power, ...  We can (and probably will have to) change the test over and over because on the other side Batteroo or Wayne or whoever contrives counter examples where the Batteriser appears to have some kind of advantage.  Hey, I myself have an LED booklight that is way too bright at the beginning...if I had a device that limited the current draw initially and ended up giving me longer life, that would be excellent.

The main point is, it doesn't matter whether the Batteriser works from a purely engineering standpoint.  We all KNOW it will not be able to extract any significant amount of extra energy from a battery and we can probably prove that under ideal lab conditions it is actually worse.

But does that all matter to the average Joe?  Of course not!  Nobody is going to buy this simply to hook up to test gear.  They are going to be putting them into real devices and they may or may not appear to give a benefit.  Sure, we all know it's really a scam, yet if it can be shown that in at least some cases it appears to have a benefit, it may sell.  There are PLENTY of items that you can buy in dollar stores or online that are really worthless pieces of crap, yet the masses still can't resist buying them.  It doesn't make it right, and anyone involved in designing/selling this crap should be ashamed of themselves, but they are probably laughing all the way to the bank.

[Kalvin]

Well, you could buy a flashlight with a dimmer LED, and make it run longer even without Batteriser.

[Fungus]

But does that all matter to the average Joe?  Of course not!  Nobody is going to buy this simply to hook up to test gear.  They are going to be putting them into real devices and they may or may not appear to give a benefit.  Sure, we all know it's really a scam, yet if it can be shown that in at least some cases it appears to have a benefit, it may sell.

I still don't believe Bob has manufactured a single unit.

This is all just a bluff to get the final VC capital released before leaving town.

[timb]

But does that all matter to the average Joe?  Of course not!  Nobody is going to buy this simply to hook up to test gear.  They are going to be putting them into real devices and they may or may not appear to give a benefit.  Sure, we all know it's really a scam, yet if it can be shown that in at least some cases it appears to have a benefit, it may sell.

I still don't believe Bob has manufactured a single unit.

This is all just a bluff to get the final VC capital released before leaving town.

I think so too. That's why I think they would be worthwhile in Dave's hands, just to see what chip they use, how they perform, etc.

Bob can't claim they're pre-production units (even though they likely are) because he's publicly stated these are final versions. Multiple times.

I don't think a few of us each putting in $10 is a big deal. Personally, the entertainment this has provided me alone is worth doling that out.

[Kalvin]

Even before Wayne's latest "test", I think he has proven the worthiness of the Batteriser to the target audience with his unscientific flashlight/torch test.

Yes, exactly. The Batteriser seems to work with some vibrating toys pretty well, as reported already, giving more bang for the buck. It is also possible that the guys at the Batteroo are completely overwhelmed by this and are still testing the toys and the sleeves, and have forgotten to mail the devices in the heat of the excitement.

[SeanB]

Well, I know what that butterfly looks like, and they are pretty nice, made in the USA as well, in Chatsworth CA. Basically a small permanent magnet motor ( actually a brushed neodynium magnet motor with an eccentric mass on the one end of the shaft) that is designed for 2-5V operation. Thus with 2 new cells it will start off at 3V2 initially, rapidly dropping to around 2V5 with standard alkaline cells. The manufacturer recommends using Eneloop cells for best consistency in performance, but alkalines will do, Regular cells will not last long with the high current draw, around 500mA to 1A depending on motor voltage. The wired remote has a resistive speed control, basically a 4R wire wound resistor in series with the power lead. Leads will also add around 2R of resistance to the setup, so your current range is around 200ma minimum to around 700mA on a typical unit.

Batteriser will keep the output voltage at around 3V for a long time, so in this use it will work, though if i was the OEM of the device ( Pipedream Products) i would instead put the electronics into the next version of the unit control ,as it will only need a new control, and around 3mm of extra size on the long dimensions, and a slightly better speed control. The existing ones are pretty poor, they suffer badly from contact problems, and the assembly is rather poor in all regards, from the soldering to mould quality. The motor would be fine with 5V into it, it is the typical small model motor you find all over.

Cheapest retrofit for these is to graft on the 3 cell battery boxes, they contain 3 C cells, have a much longer run time and higher level of output, but are not as discrete. Otherwise use the newer rechargeable models with a lithium cell in it to provide power.

[Fungus]

I still don't believe Bob has manufactured a single unit. This is all just a bluff

I think so too. That's why I think they would be worthwhile in Dave's hands, just to see what chip they use, how they perform, etc.

Bob can't claim they're pre-production units (even though they likely are) because he's publicly stated these are final versions. Multiple times.

I suppose so. And if Bob thinks it's unfair he can always Fedex Dave a couple of 'production' units, right?

Dave can make that very clear at the start of his video. He can even offer to pay the postage.

Bob has no excuse - he's sitting on a huge pile of production units, right?

[Mr.B]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/

By about 1200 posts at the moment.

[ez24]

I do know there's no way in hell Wayne was chosen randomly to receive the only-known box of Batterisers. Bob chose him specifically.

Bob chose him because he went to their office and was from another country and said he wanted to be a distributor.  I have not read that anyone from here has gone to their office and I have found that strange.  I did a fly by of their office like I did with Wayne (that pissed him off). 

Can someone tell me - if I walked into a bar in Australia and yelled at everyone "tossers", what would happen?  Would they laugh, throw me out, beat the shit out of me ?  I read what it means but it seems to me be a friendly joking word but some here seem offended by it.

I think Wayne just has a dry sense of humor that I think fly's over some peoples head and he is having a good time with us.

[g.lewarne]

I do know there's no way in hell Wayne was chosen randomly to receive the only-known box of Batterisers. Bob chose him specifically.

Bob chose him because he went to their office and was from another country and said he wanted to be a distributor.  I have not read that anyone from here has gone to their office and I have found that strange.  I did a fly by of their office like I did with Wayne (that pissed him off). 

Can someone tell me - if I walked into a bar in Australia and yelled at everyone "tossers", what would happen?  Would they laugh, throw me out, beat the shit out of me ?  I read what it means but it seems to me be a friendly joking word but some here seem offended by it.

I think Wayne just has a dry sense of humor that I think fly's over some peoples head and he is having a good time with us.

Not sure about Australia, but here in the UK "Tosser" is all about context.  Between mates, fine.  Friendly jab at colleague, fine.  Calling a stranger a tosser, likely to get a broken jaw

[ez24]

... the guys at the Batteroo are completely overwhelmed by this and are still testing the toys and the sleeves, and have forgotten to mail the devices in the heat of the excitement.

Finally something makes sense.

[amspire]

I am finding myself very much on Wayne's side. If I was a battery seller, would I want to sell the Batteriser? Yes probably since it is an idea that would help the odd device that work best at 1.5V.
Would I want to publicly send first samples to Dave? No, definitely not. That would be a really, really dumb thing to do.
Would I want to see a independent technical test to see if it was reliable, efficient, within the RF radiation specs and not likely to damage devices? Absolutely. If I had a friend who was an electronics nut, I would probably let them test it privately.
The thing is I would either want to stock it, or else walk away and not be involved in the slightest if it turned out to be rubbish.

There is nothing evil in the Batteriser concept and we know it can work. The thing we have always attacked is just the exaggerated claims without any scientific backing - particularly the deliberate loaded-no load battery voltage confusion, and the extrapolation of a test on one Garmin device that may even be faulty to all battery powered devices in the world to claim an 80% reduction of battery consumption.

[EEVblog]

Indeed. There hasn't been a write-only memory data sheet sort of thing in a long while. Usually we get by with mocking stock photos. Batteroo has been and continues to provide one huge entertainment spectacle. Though outside of the forum here I have seen nothing (I don't follow their FB page or bother looking at the Indiegogo page) much of any mention of the product or company. Not that I'm actively looking, but I follow a few technical sites that, if there was a news item, would have linked it or reported on it.

I've been contacted by several large battery industry related companies (who didn't know about about me beforehand) to say they loved the debunking videos and they say Batteriser is the laughing stock in the industry, a running joke.
One wanted to do their own debunking video, but in the end decided it wasn't worth the effort, and just to let the product die naturally as it inevitably will.

[EEVblog]

I think so too. That's why I think they would be worthwhile in Dave's hands, just to see what chip they use, how they perform, etc.

FYI, I can't tell you what chip it uses. That would require depotting the chip and taking a micro photograph of the die.
But I know someone that does this, so once I get some, one will be whisked off to have that done.

[EEVblog]

I suppose so. And if Bob thinks it's unfair he can always Fedex Dave a couple of 'production' units, right?
Dave can make that very clear at the start of his video. He can even offer to pay the postage.
Bob has no excuse - he's sitting on a huge pile of production units, right?

Maybe I should do a public announcement video offering Bob a completely unbiased unsarcastic independent test of the Batteriser in exchange for some units and $1000 to his favourite charity?

But meh, if they are shipping as he claims then I'll have some soon enough anyway...

He's always known that my blog would be the absolute best way to validate his product and shut up all the doubters, but he's deliberately not sending me any, or any of the other press units as promised, nor releasing any technical test data as promised either. And they have had test units ready for that purpose for a year now. The answer is simple and obvious, they know it doesn't perform as claimed.

[EEVblog]

I can already see where this is heading to. If Dave gets the Batterisers from Wayne, Bob can then say: "No, those were just pre-production samples for the marketing purposes only. The real devices [which were shipped to the campaign backers but were lost in the mailing process] will perform as advertised." I wouldn't spend any money on Wayne's devices.

Wayne got production units according to Batteroo, and Bob himself has said backers units have been shipping.
Bob cannot call these prototypes without admitting he lied about units shipping to backers.

[Brumby]

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

If it's because of the appearance of the name 'Batterizer' on the units then that may be an invalid premise.  Perhaps that has been (as has been suggested earlier) an allowance from Energizer to use up existing components with, no doubt, a requirement that all marketing does not use that name and future components are changed.

These mechanical differences are completely irrelevant in the operation of the device - and I think it would be a really stupid idea to release a version of the product into the marketplace that is substandard in performance to the "real" one - especially as the first release.

[EEVblog]

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077720/#msg1077720

[Brumby]

That's just some metalwork.  While there is the curiosity question as to why it's changed, it's not going to affect operation in any way.

Who's to say they haven't just used all the material available to get product out and minimise wastage.

[EEVblog]

How many days (weeks) in a row are we going to have to keep coming back here hoping every new post on here is an announcement that someone on the forum or elsewhere actually has them?
Like I said before, I've heard of someone with an order number in the teens who hasn't got them yet, nor any sort of shipment email or tracking etc.
Meh.