EEVblog #642 - TI Connected Launchpad

[nixfu]

Ok.   One question, is this platform totally dependent on their web service or can I put my own up.

I have visions of a fickle oem deciding to just stop providing the service because they decide it was not profitable anymore. 

[JonnyBoats]

But I suspect most are going to try the out of box demo and IoT to get it up and running, and I don't think it's too much to expect it to work flawlessly in that regard.

I totally agree Dave. In my opinion TI generally does a rather poor job with their demos. For example they often include some Windows demo app that interfaces with a board but generally don't provide source code for the windows demo app. On the hardware side they include the ability to read the temperature of the chip, but how much nicer would it have been if they had included a light sensor where one could easily observe a change in value by covering the sensor! As you observed in your video, it is not easy to get the on chip temperature value to change, so how does one know if it is actually working?

For newcomers Arduino is hard to beat, extremely easy to get started. TI is far more oriented towards EEs than artsy-artsy types  looking to get their feet wet ;-)

[JonnyBoats]

Ok.   One question, is this platform totally dependent on their web service or can I put my own up.

I have visions of a fickle oem deciding to just stop providing the service because they decide it was not profitable anymore.

Their software is a demonstration application, you are free to write your own software to communicate with any website you like. You could use Plotly (https://plot.ly) for example.

[neotesla]

1) The price is excellent in my opinion - TI sells it for $20 US and ships for free virtually anywhere in the world. Where else can you get any sort of micro-controller with a built in Ethernet port for $20 delivered?

The pricing is in fact so good that I've already noticed a joker on eBay (re)selling the same board for more than twice the price (plus postage!)

[djacobow]

Once solution would be using open protocols and server software so you can run yourself or pick from one of N service providers, with the ability to redirect your device when you move to a different service (e.g. by modifying your DNS records).  Another solution is to use closed cloud system from a large and stable vendor that is much less likely to close shop.

So, the Spark allows just this. You can download the server code and run it locally, or on AWS, or whatever. I think if I were to roll out a commercial product based on Spark, I'd almost certainly do this.

http://spark.github.io/

That said, I am have a certain amount of cloud-backlash building in me, and I'd like to see more devices that can do their thing without interacting with some third party unnecessarily. I feel like a good rule of thumb is that data should stay local by default and only get pushed out to some external system if it benefits the user. So, for example, a thermostat might pull down weather and electric rate data, but it would not upload temperature setting data to some server so that the server could make the on/off decision.

[Monkeh]

1) The price is excellent in my opinion - TI sells it for $20 US and ships for free virtually anywhere in the world. Where else can you get any sort of micro-controller with a built in Ethernet port for $20 delivered?

The pricing is in fact so good that I've already noticed a joker on eBay (re)selling the same board for more than twice the price (plus postage!)

Not your typical joker, that guy is a Farnell dropshipper. Ripoff merchant, makes a fortune.

[Rasz]

maybe relevant:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/173169/faq_ftc_blog_endorsement_rules.html

No, it's not, because:
a) I bought it.
b) I not a Yank, FTC rules mean squat.

in case of #1 Im genuinely impressed, I would rather kill myself than talk for half an hour about iot and I suspect you are just as enthusiastic about it as I am

Dave, you seem 'on edge' during this video.  Not a criticism, just hoping everything is OK with you.

Thats it, at least Im not alone. I read it as 'lets get over with this garbage as fast as possible"

about #2 tho, US law applies to everyone, those who disagree get shot/kidnapped/liberated. Besides Google is US based and they will force everyone to disclose, at the very least by adding 'flag as concealed paid endorsement' option and deleting flagged clips. All the Gameplay/Game review channels are talking about it for a couple of days now.

Once solution would be using open protocols and server software so you can run yourself or pick from one of N service providers, with the ability to redirect your device when you move to a different service (e.g. by modifying your DNS records).  Another solution is to use closed cloud system from a large and stable vendor that is much less likely to close shop.

Jabber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP
Its not perfect, but it is open and decentralized

1) The price is excellent in my opinion - TI sells it for $20 US and ships for free virtually anywhere in the world. Where else can you get any sort of micro-controller with a built in Ethernet port for $20 delivered?

same place you get half of your products from, China.
$5 gets you Allwinter quad ARMv7 chip + Pmic chip, Even Intel is pushing its shitty (quad core x86 with HD graphics and everything) Atom chips at $5 in China.
 $20 gets you whole finished product, for example wireless router with 400MHz mips, 32MB ram and buildin lipo battery. Is TI very power efficient? so what, it will be connected over ethernet anyway, so why bother?

I dont get the purpose of this chip. What exactly would you build with it? Ethernet connected button with 1 second round the globe latency? That chip has rather hilarious >$10 price, mostly because they could slap iot badge on marketing material.

[neotesla]

Rasz, can you please provide links where the stuff you claim is $5-$10 can be purchased (in the form of a preprogrammed fully working board, not individual chips).

Thanks.

[zapta]

Once solution would be using open protocols and server software so you can run yourself or pick from one of N service providers, with the ability to redirect your device when you move to a different service (e.g. by modifying your DNS records).  Another solution is to use closed cloud system from a large and stable vendor that is much less likely to close shop.

Jabber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP
Its not perfect, but it is open and decentralized

What a coincident, just started this week to dive into a the world of massive XMPP routing.

[VK3DRB]

The top overlay is crap. Why couldn't the PCB designer BACK ANNOTATE the designators to the schematic? White ink over holes, ambiguous designators, placement inconsistency, test point and designators running into each other, labels not lined up, pin 1 markers missing from the booster pack connectors. Whoever laid out the board obviously had little or no experience as a debug technician. TI has demonstrated a lack of PCB layout standards, or lack of process. 

The 45 degree micro was good though. A lot of engineers don't realise one of the benefits of 45 degree placement of a large QFIC is that is can improve solder paste screening by reducing shadowing, resulting in significant improvements in first pass yields. It also sometimes aids in layout. EXCELLENT. 

[miguelvp]

Once solution would be using open protocols and server software so you can run yourself or pick from one of N service providers, with the ability to redirect your device when you move to a different service (e.g. by modifying your DNS records).  Another solution is to use closed cloud system from a large and stable vendor that is much less likely to close shop.

Jabber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP
Its not perfect, but it is open and decentralized

exosite uses XMPP at least for this chronos project, but same deal.

https://support.exosite.com/hc/en-us/articles/200095748-TI-Chronos-Watch-RF-Gateway-Project

XMPP MUC (multi user chat)  is pretty easy to implement as far as the client side goes.

[Rasz]

Rasz, can you please provide links where the stuff you claim is $5-$10 can be purchased (in the form of a preprogrammed fully working board, not individual chips).

Thanks.

sure, how about $2? of maybe $0.5? do you have problem reading quoted text? _$20_ was right there

but ok, half the discussed price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-in-1-Mini-Portable-150Mbps-3G-WIFI-Mobile-Wireless-Router-Hotspot-SHPG-/371043640145
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAME-MPR-A1-3in1-150Mbps-Mini-WIFI-3G-Wireless-Router-1800mAh-Mobile-Power-Bank-/230998891715
http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/hame/mpr-a1
http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/hame/mpr-a2

cheaper, without battery:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Portable-3G-4G-MiFi-Wireless-N-USB-WiFi-Hotspot-Router-AP-150Mbps-Wlan-/181415038350
http://my-embedded.blogspot.com/2013/12/mini-4g-router-rt5350f.html


wifi b/g/n, usb 2.0, ethernet, lipo, linux on board, end product including shipping, at TI bare chip price point
Ralink is owned by Mediatek now. Mediatek sells whole GSM handset on a chip SoCs at $2-3.

[neotesla]

sure, how about $2? of maybe $0.5? do you have problem reading quoted text? _$20_ was right there
 

You seem to be having difficulties reading your own post, you moron.

[Rasz]

sure, how about $2? of maybe $0.5? do you have problem reading quoted text? _$20_ was right there
 

You seem to be having difficulties reading your own post, you moron.

aww, illiterate baby got mad

btw
http://www.amazon.com/Pogoplug-Backup-and-Sharing-Device/dp/B005GM1Q1O
128MB RAM, 1Gbit Ethernet, USB 2.0, running debian

Again, can anyone give me justification for this TI part at this (>$5) price point? NXP(LPC4072)/freescale (k60) offer almost sister chips at $4 in one off quantities already. Even atmel has something at half the price.

[EEVblog]

but ok, half the discussed price:
*snip*

None of those items are ready to use bareboard development boards with documentation, support (manufacturer, community, market longevity etc), compatible compiler tools, defined I/O expansion with headers and add-on boards etc.
You can't just compare closed consumer junk with a dev board, not even close to being the same thing.

[EEVblog]

Thats it, at least Im not alone. I read it as 'lets get over with this garbage as fast as possible"

It did turn into a bit of that in the end.

about #2 tho, US law applies to everyone, those who disagree get shot/kidnapped/liberated. Besides Google is US based and they will force everyone to disclose, at the very least by adding 'flag as concealed paid endorsement' option and deleting flagged clips.

Nope.

[Rasz]

but ok, half the discussed price:
*snip*

None of those items are ready to use bareboard development boards with documentation, support (manufacturer, community, market longevity etc), compatible compiler tools, defined I/O expansion with headers and add-on boards etc.
You can't just compare closed consumer junk with a dev board, not even close to being the same thing.

I didnt link them to say everyone should make products by hacking some obscure chinese bargain bin router , but to show TI has nothing interesting to offer by trying to sell bare chip at the price point of _elaborate end products_.

Here is a dev board
http://www.asiarf.com/Smallest-Tiny-Ralink-802-11n-Wireless-AP-Router-Module-Board-AWM002-product-view-375.html
$15 retail, $10 (moq unknown). Its the same board they put on indiegogo some time ago. FCC CE and all that jazz.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5-pcs-Free-Shipping-New-Genuine-RT5350F-RT5350-RALINK-wireless-router-chip-real-shot-spot/1931197855.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Original-new-AR9331-AL1A-ATHEROS-Chip-QFN/1873233251.html
bare chips <$4, probably less if you have boots on the ground in china. Its not digikey, but you dont buy on digikey when you manufacture in china.

iot is supposed to be milions-to-billions of devices around us (according to iot believers). I find it hilarious how someone at TI sold managements on the idea of shipping million of those chips at $12 a pop, because IoT, and teh cloud, and flying cars! Nxp, freescale, st all have products at 1/3 the price already on the market.


ps: About Intel, yes Im angry at them :/
http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2014/02/04/intel-likely-to-sell-tablet-chips-at-or-below-cost-says-bernstein/
http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/intel-aggressively-drops-prices-on-system-on-chips-for-tablets-report/

This smells like that time Intel was caught bribing pc makers not to use AMD, but this time its against ARM.

[made2hack]

OK, so the dev board is 19 Euros on Farnell, and the chip, by itself, the XM4C129DNCPDTI1 is 12 Euros 

Is there any incentive to develop your own PCB to use this chip if you can get this complete package for such little difference?

Yes, the chip goes down in price for 300+ pieces to 9 Euros, but still, tough to justify developing your own.

[Precipice]

iot is supposed to be milions-to-billions of devices around us (according to iot believers). I find it hilarious how someone at TI sold managements on the idea of shipping million of those chips at $12 a pop, because IoT, and teh cloud, and flying cars! Nxp, freescale, st all have products at 1/3 the price already on the market.

Err, you're complaining about the retail price of one chip, through distribution, being too high to use in a millions+ rollout?
If only there was some kind of a bulk discount...
Low volume prices , in my experience, seem to be no indication of proper supported volume prices.

Edit: I'm not saying this is the one chip to rule them all(tm) -just that $12 is irrelevant. And it's very, very nice to have a full Ether interface without needing a PHY.

[Rasz]

Err, you're complaining about the retail price of one chip, through distribution, being too high to use in a millions+ rollout?
If only there was some kind of a bulk discount...
Low volume prices , in my experience, seem to be no indication of proper supported volume prices.

Edit: I'm not saying this is the one chip to rule them all(tm) -just that $12 is irrelevant. And it's very, very nice to have a full Ether interface without needing a PHY.

erm, competition is pushing similarly configured arm M4's at $4 in single quantities, and just like you said it only goes down from there.

[Niels]

3) Compared to  Arduinos and Raspberry PIs which ship in the millions this is a relatively obscure platform; you should not expect to find a large community and lots of online support for this product. The ecosystem is very small compared to Arduinos and PIs.

It depends on what you want.

The CPU in the PI (Broadcom BCM2835) is also obscure since it is intended for high volume consumer market, and in order to get the data sheet you need to sign an NDA.

[zapta]

Is there any incentive to develop your own PCB to use this chip if you can get this complete package for such little difference?

Of course, if you need to have your own custom design/product.

[Slow Poke]

My frustration with a lot of these ioT thingies is that they always rely on a third party service or server. Some of em charge money, that's a problem. Bigger problem is :what if that server goes down ? Or the host goes bankrupt. It's game over !

Why can't these devices simply serve by themselves ?

Well, generally true for microcontrollers.  Use a database, say, MySQL on a server [yours] and write a Web page front end for control.  Write on-board code to react to that.  Not much memory to work with locally.

[AdamPanic]

I'll give you my view on what occurred with that code, from a bit wrangler like myself.

Code: [Select]

IF (Comparision IS TRUE)
THEN (enter event)
UNTIL (Comparision IS NOT TRUE

That last line is a potential infinite loop. It is essentially waiting for the condition to change.
It doesn't. Eventually some watchdog timer times out and resets the board into offline.

For a better diagnosis I'll need to read the section in the guide the cover the "programming" aspect.

[JonnyBoats]

One thing that is absent from the discussion of the connected launchpad is that it is part of a bigger ecosystem. For example TI also makes a Wi-Fi connected launchpad for the IoT, the CC3200 (http://www.ti.com/tool/cc3200-launchxl ).

Another way this comes into play is that the TI compilers (such as CCS) can be used for multiple lines of chips from the simple MSP430s to ARM processors.

Then there are the various boards that work with the various launchpads. Not to mention that the use of an ARM core gives a certain level of compatibility with ARM chips from other vendors.

Anyone who has used an Arduino will immediately recognize that much of the value comes from the various shields that can be used with it.

Unfortunately it is not really possible for Dave to go over the entire ecosystem from TI in a single blog post.