Author Topic: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!  (Read 424958 times)

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #700 on: October 08, 2016, 06:17:13 am »
You'd think that the #1 requirement for demonstrating solar roadways would be the net power it generates?
Why isn't there a big net kWh display?
This has to be deliberate, just like the lack of any data on their website after all these years.

Dave,

I will be addressing this next week.  Supposedly, the system is connected via a net meter, the data from which was *supposed* to be displayed live on the city website. 

As of right now, Solar Roadways continues to tweet nonsense and links to articles about how this system generates power, so I hope they're ready to prove it. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 06:19:52 am by LabSpokane »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #701 on: October 08, 2016, 06:31:03 am »
A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow. If you use grid power to do so then you would have had a simple resistive mat in a regular road decades ago instead of a expensive to operate snow plow and the toxic and corrosive salt used on roads.

There are houses with heated driveways, but ask the owner just how much using that option adds to the electric bill for the house, and scale that up for the power required in a typical suburb that you would have to add to the supply calculations, and how much the extra transformers, power controllers and bulk electric power you would use over a typical season. Then ask how much power the solar panels would generate over that winter season.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #702 on: October 08, 2016, 06:34:22 am »
The lack of (or incomplete or outright ficticious) test data seems to be a hallmark of bogus ideas like this...

So may projects (especially snazzy-looking-marketing and crowd-funded ones) get boatloads of money thrown at them just based on some pie-in-the-sky idea without any kind of specifications or hard data of any kind by people who fall for a slick sales pitch.  :palm:

A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow.

It can't.

Basic physics prohibits that from being a possibility yet some people have managed to be convinced to believe it is somehow possible.  Essentially the latest incarnation of a perpetual motion machine :palm: but you still can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it, despite what some slick marketing guy tells you.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 06:44:31 am by drussell »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #703 on: October 08, 2016, 07:51:28 am »
A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow. If you use grid power to do so then you would have had a simple resistive mat in a regular road decades ago instead of a expensive to operate snow plow and the toxic and corrosive salt used on roads.

There are houses with heated driveways, but ask the owner just how much using that option adds to the electric bill for the house, and scale that up for the power required in a typical suburb that you would have to add to the supply calculations, and how much the extra transformers, power controllers and bulk electric power you would use over a typical season. Then ask how much power the solar panels would generate over that winter season.

Lol that reminds me, our city spent I don't know how many thousands of dollars for heated steps in front of city hall.   Let's just say that did not really work very well. They still have to have workers go and shovel them every morning.   If anything it probably creates lot of ice as it melts some of the snow, which just turns into ice then after a while there is more ice than the heat can cope with, it probably just ends up being more dangerous.

People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice.   A 1800w heat gun will barely touch the ice in gutters, for example.  I've tried.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #704 on: October 08, 2016, 08:55:56 am »
Quote
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice
use methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets  :-DD
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #705 on: October 08, 2016, 11:43:59 am »
As of right now, Solar Roadways continues to tweet nonsense and links to articles about how this system generates power, so I hope they're ready to prove it.

The problem is they may be generating some power and gullible people will believe well delivered "it's only a prototype, it will improve" speech.

Remember that it's taxpayer money that's being spent here, not people's own personal money so critical thinking will be turned off. Worse: They might be making a bit on the side so they simply don't care about cost.

It would be easy to come across as the party pooper who doesn't believe strongly enough in old fashioned American values to make this thing work.

Hard facts won't be enough in a debate. No matter what you say it will be easy for them to counter with "it's only a prototype, production panels will be better we just need more funding".

The correct answer will emphasise:
* The panels have already had plenty of funding ($23 million?). This isn't rocket science, solar panels are well understood. This council shouldn't be paying for more R&D based on the poor results shown so far (and they will be poor, guaranteed).

* What is the power output of the panels? Solar Roadways has always ducked that question even though it's the only number that really matters.

* Ask Scott why he turned off four of the panels off at 2:40am on the 5th of October 2016. The LEDs in the panels were clearly working so what was the reason for disabling them? What was the solar output of the four panels he disabled (I'm sure those numbers will be missing from the data he presents, that his numbers will be skewed).



* There's too many unknown risk factors, eg. the long-term durability of the panels Will the boss of Solar Roadways provide a personal garantee? This is untested technology. You believe that payment of any roads constructed using the panels needs to be spread over 12 years with deductions made for every panel that needs to be replaced.

* He claims the panel can be used to show road markings but the LEDs clearly aren't visible in daylight. Will road markings have to be painted on top of the panels? Yes, brighter LEDs exist but can they be powered 24/7 by an ideal solar panel even on cloudy days? If the panels can't even keep themselves illuminated then they're obviously pointless and dangerous. In what way are LED markings better than reliable old paint and overhead signs?

* There needs to be a controlled test of how easy it is to break the panels by driving over small sharp objects before any funding can be approved.

* There needs to be a controlled test of how the panels will scratch by driving over them (it's glass vs trucks, people!). How will scratching affect the solar output? This needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.

* There needs to be a controlled test of snow/ice melting by the panels. Ask the boss of Solar Panels how much energy it takes to melt a couple of inches of snow, if he lies then you've got him. Snow/ice melting needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.

* There needs to be a lot of controlled tests of braking and cornering on wet glass. Safety cannot be compromised and so far Solar Roadways hasn't provided any data. The council doesn't want to be exposed to expensive lawsuits.

* The stresses on the panels themselves will be huge under emergency braking. Can Solar Roadways show any engineering data to show they won't delaminate or anything bad under long term conditions. This isn't the sort of thing that can be tested by braking a few times on a row of panels, it needs real engineering. The council doesn't want to be exposed to expensive lawsuits.

* Probably lots of other things I didn't think of. The trick is to use the words "risk" and "unknown" a lot. They're good words, much better than saying "I have total proof, dammit!!".  The people you're dealing with don't like other people telling them they're wrong. They know they're smarter then everybody else or they wouldn't have such important jobs!

Remember: You're not against solar roadways, it's a wonderful idea, but a lot more data is needed before releasing funding. There are a long list of things that could make it non-viable even if the power generation works out, which basic physics says is impossible (this is the correct moment to mention "basic math"). Given the very low chance of success, you don't see why the taxpayer should be paying for that data, it's Solar Roadway's job to provide it.

Also think of all the ways these panels could expose the city to lawsuits. Everything from road safety to flying shards of glass. List them in detail.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 12:20:37 pm by Fungus »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #706 on: October 08, 2016, 11:47:03 am »
I just found the live stream. Only 7 or 8 panels left and one of them looks dodgy. How long has it been since they were all working originally?

They were deliberately turned off by the owner of Solar Roadways, for reasons unknown. See picture in previous post.

Even though they were disabled, one of the LEDs refused to give up. This was fixed by a some helpful members of the public.



 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #707 on: October 08, 2016, 12:27:41 pm »
Somebody should track down the stomper girl and give her a free multimeter for her outstanding efforts, I'd be willing to chip in if required.   :-+

Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.

Slighty different kettle of smelly fish but this whole thing reminds me of the yellow peril monstrosity we had to endure some years ago, it had more moves than a chess game and really belonged in the deepest part of the Yarra river, city councillors who approve this shit should be drowned at birth I say.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #708 on: October 08, 2016, 01:07:48 pm »
Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.


After all these years they haven't even driven a regular car over them. Only thing they have driven on them is a <1 ton tractor with huge weight distributing wheels.


And where is the solar output data from that big test system?  :-//
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #709 on: October 08, 2016, 01:19:49 pm »
* There needs to be a controlled test of snow/ice melting by the panels. Ask the boss of Solar Panels how much energy it takes to melt a couple of inches of snow, if he lies then you've got him. Snow/ice melting needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.

The problem with Solar Roadways is that this can easily be demonstrated to work. Put enough heat in and snow will melt.
Likewise the solar panels will produce excess power, and so to the LED line markers can be made to work given enough current and optics, and so can the durability be shown with driving some cars on it. But the devil is in the detail of how practical each part is, and that's the problem, none of these things are going to be practical for a multitude of reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't "work".

If SR are sufficiently clever they can milk this funding cow for a long time to come.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #710 on: October 08, 2016, 02:09:28 pm »
I'm imagining a fully loaded 18-wheeler under full braking, ripping 50 meters/yards of panels out of their housing and shutting down the road for a week.

 

Offline Jetan

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #711 on: October 08, 2016, 04:03:35 pm »
I would so like to sea someone driving from the parking lot on to the tiles. It's so easy to do, but I think no one trust these blinking tiles  :--.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #712 on: October 08, 2016, 04:12:52 pm »
What about people hooning around on those nice slippery tiles. Practicing their drifting, etc. How well will they stand up to 700bhp cars doing burnouts and drag racing on them at night?

I wanna see that tractor lift the front wheels using the loader scoop and drive along a bit.

 

Offline f4eru

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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #714 on: October 09, 2016, 04:56:28 am »
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/

I'd call that a "Glow-in-the-Dark" roadway.  While it is of limited value, it's a cool effect - and no doubt much, much cheaper.
 

Offline hans

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #715 on: October 09, 2016, 06:03:19 am »
Ultimately it's about the axle weight of a vehicle. I want to see an (overloaded) truck with only 4 or 5 axles pushing down 50+ tons into the road, making an emergency stop at 80-100km/h while the panels are soaking wet :popcorn: This scenario sounds pretty common to me, like a sudden traffic jam caused by bad weather & people that can't drive.

Are they making these panels completely flat or do they have like a a few mm bulge in them? Because looking at the size of the panels standing water could quickly be a real issue. But then I wonder how it feels to drive over such panels, because if the bulge is too dramatic road comfort would be toast.
I can only imagine they should make the panels smaller, rectangular, and perhaps add drainage holes near panel edges or in the panels themselves.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #716 on: October 09, 2016, 06:41:51 am »
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/

I'd call that a "Glow-in-the-Dark" roadway.  While it is of limited value, it's a cool effect - and no doubt much, much cheaper.

I already posted that.

Yes, it will be much cheaper. And lower maintenance. And will probably work.
 

Offline ivaylo

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #717 on: October 09, 2016, 06:57:53 am »
And I posted it before that :P
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #718 on: October 09, 2016, 07:49:51 am »
Quote
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice
use methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets  :-DD

Many years ago,I read in an "English Electric" company newsletter that the Metropoitan Sewage & Drainage Dept in Perth WA were running EE Diesel engines off Sewage gases to drive pumps,etc,making them independent of the Electricity Mains.

Apparently,they started on Diesel fuel then as soon as they were running,swapped over to Sewage gas.

No,I don't know how it was done,but they were not a company with as great sense of humour,nor was it April! ;D
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #719 on: October 09, 2016, 09:04:59 am »
Quote
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice
use methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets  :-DD

Many years ago,I read in an "English Electric" company newsletter that the Metropoitan Sewage & Drainage Dept in Perth WA were running EE Diesel engines off Sewage gases to drive pumps,etc,making them independent of the Electricity Mains.

Apparently,they started on Diesel fuel then as soon as they were running,swapped over to Sewage gas.

No,I don't know how it was done,but they were not a company with as great sense of humour,nor was it April! ;D
Diesel engines or gas turbines are run from self generated methane in sewage works all over the world. The major part of a sewage works is dedicated to digesting and removing the content of the water. This results in large amounts of methane. You will see large gas domes in most works, buffering between the gas generation and consumption functions.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #720 on: October 09, 2016, 09:45:18 am »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #721 on: October 11, 2016, 12:28:37 am »
So the guy filming the soalr roadways movie posted on twitter kind of responding to jokes about the LED brightness in daylight, and posted this stunning pic:


Shame:
a) The LED in the middle really aren't all that bright in the sun
and
b) The LEDs fiurther back and off to the side a bit in the background are hardly noticeable  :palm:
and
c) The glare is pretty bad, and I've seen bad reflections on the live feed.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 12:31:02 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #722 on: October 11, 2016, 01:03:16 am »
Photos taken 5 feet away are of little relevance. What matters are what the markers look like from 50 to 1000 feet away. And as we all know, they will be virtually invisible unless it's just a nuclear hot led. Even road integrated yellow LEDs that are directed towards drivers are unimpressive. We have them here in crosswalks.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #723 on: October 11, 2016, 02:03:14 am »
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.

Also, I cannot see a lot of anti-skid texture in that close up.

Where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #724 on: October 11, 2016, 02:14:58 am »
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.

Yeah, that is ridiculously bad, even for a sidewalk let alone a road!

That's not even close to acceptable in so many ways...  :palm:
 


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