EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!

[drussell]

Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo 

Yeah, or something like example lane markers, etc!

A VERY pitiful LED lightshow!!  (Especially since they keep sticking and malfunctioning and breaking altogether!)

When he rebooted the panels at midnight*, they were in lock-step for a little while, but then started falling out of sync. So they're actually individually going through the same fixed loop/routine, but evidently their clocks aren't synced. In other words, yes, it's about the lamest possible implementation, no randomisation, nor any communication between panels at all (except for cutting power )...

Yeah, that is pretty sad.  They obviously don't even seem to have any programming ability on them right now, just the one default scrolling demo, although the webpage says it is supposedly in the works to even have the demo adjustable by the public from the little kiosk... eventually

Also, if it is supposedly so easy to replace tiles for road surface maintenance/repair, etc. why haven't they gone down and popped out the defective tiles and replaced them?   

I guess they only have 8 (semi-)working tiles after all their wasted money and "hard work" thus far.   

What a farce!

[Towger]

Mike could get a well paying consultancy gig from them.  This is obviously more of an artwork than a roadway or foot path.  It has the appearance of their first attempt to actually produce a tile.  With  not even basic reliability testing for a few days done at their factory/warehouse.

I can't help wondering why they have cut off all the extra wires to each tile, left as is they will wick in water to the electronics.  Are the extra wires for the led control data!  Only single RGB colour per tile, where are road markings! individually addressable leds are not rocket science these days.

[Fungus]

Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo 

Half the LEDs have already died so it might not be the worst possible choice.

[Fungus]

It's raining. I wonder if the electrics are waterproof. 

[rrinker]

 In this case, since it's a rest stop, they use the LEDs to point the direction to the men's and lady's or something. You know, use it as some sort of indication like they want to do for an actual roadway.
 But random flashy colored blinken lights are MUCH more attractive to the general public. The sheep who pay their taxes and see their money go into things too often don't care about such useful stuff like power output, just "hey, it looks cool! So worth it!"

[LabSpokane]

These are the third generation of solar tiles. As far as reasons for the light patterns, I think they did what they did simply because trying to replicate standard road markings would not have worked at all.

The wires entry points appeared to be well sealed with silicone, so we'll see if water intrusion is an issue.

What's interesting is that 100% of the panels will have to be replaced at this point in order to have a functional system that meets the solar road definition. What is installed represents all of the assembled PCBs Solar Roadways has, so more will need to be ordered. I'm guessing at such low volume that each tile must be around $500 each in actual costs. The glass is custom made and CNC milled at SR's facility.

So, somebody is likely going to go another $15K out of pocket if this system is going to even remotely be functional. Winter is coming rapidly and there is the promise of a "snow and ice free" surface to meet. Sandpoint is a winter resort destination, so expect the system to get a lot of visibility.

And with likely lead times running at least 6-8 weeks, the system will likely be repaired no sooner than Christmas time.

Someone needs to keep a record of the midnight service calls.

[drussell]

What's interesting is that 100% of the panels will have to be replaced at this point in order to have a functional system that meets the solar road definition. What is installed represents all of the assembled PCBs Solar Roadways has, so more will need to be ordered. I'm guessing at such low volume that each tile must be around $500 each in actual costs. The glass is custom made and CNC milled at SR's facility.

So, somebody is likely going to go another $15K out of pocket if this system is going to even remotely be functional. Winter is coming rapidly and there is the promise of a "snow and ice free" surface to meet. Sandpoint is a winter resort destination, so expect the system to get a lot of visibility.

Ummmm... How much money have they scammed people out if so far?  $2.2 Million?  or was it $3.5 Million?  Does anyone know a running total of how much money they've raised for this BS?  Regardless, $15,000 is chump change compared to what they have raised thus far and if they have squandered all of it already, I daresay it has been a colossal waste of money if they can't even produce a few prototype panels. 

They obviousy certainly weren't really even ready to make this a public demonstration! 

And with likely lead times running at least 6-8 weeks, the system will likely be repaired no sooner than Christmas time.

Did they really only make 30 sets of pieces for their pubic demonstration?!!  And expected them to all work perfectly on the first try?!!  AND not even TEST THEM BEFOREHAND?!!  It's not like this whole thing was just planned last week on a whim!

Well, that would be some disasterously poor planning if their highly publicized first public installation was done without even having enough perts in the pipeline to make the silly thing even semi-functional and remain operational for the public demo!

How could they possibly be so stupid as to not have... thought this... thing... er...   Oh, wait!!... 

[LabSpokane]

I got the production quantities straight from SR's people. Scott Brusaw stated essentially the same thing publicly so this isn't insider info.

Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.

I'm not saying the Brusaws are paupers, but there are going to be some tough financial decisions to be made. Even small businesses with healthy cash flow cringe at the amounts that will need to be re-spent to repair this very public demonstration.

[ataradov]

Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.

The solution is - sell this equipment at a discounted price to people who can load it 100% and get their money back. After that find a company that will cut the glass for you. This is a relatively straightforward and cheap process.

You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.

[LabSpokane]

Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.

The solution is - sell this equipment at a discounted price to people who can load it 100% and get their money back. After that find a company that will cut the glass for you. This is a relatively straightforward and cheap process.

You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.

I do not disagree, but that's what's happened/happening.

[drussell]

You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.

I do not disagree, but that's what's happened/happening.

Well, that's precisely my point about the utter insanity and complete waste of money on this farce...

They don't even have a "working" design yet for this completely bogus product that can never work as claimed so they don't know exactly what machinery and equipment they really need to manufacture said "working" design, yet they have wasted a swack of (mostly gullible other peoples') money buying expensive toys when they obviously don't even have a properly working prototype!!! 

Now, perhaps the tiles are actually generating their small bit of juice from the panels and the only physical problems are with the blinkenlights but it sure doesn't inspire much confidence in the robustness of the design. 

It will be very interesting to see if the things even generate enough net power to run the lights let alone the physical impossibility of running heaters to keep them clear of ice and snow. 

[SeanB]

Mike could get a well paying consultancy gig from them.  This is obviously more of an artwork than a roadway or foot path.  It has the appearance of their first attempt to actually produce a tile.  With  not even basic reliability testing for a few days done at their factory/warehouse.

I can't help wondering why they have cut off all the extra wires to each tile, left as is they will wick in water to the electronics.  Are the extra wires for the led control data!  Only single RGB colour per tile, where are road markings! individually addressable leds are not rocket science these days.

I doubt it, Mike has both higher standards for what he produces and a lot better ethics than this bunch. He might just put the lot of them in the glass mill and press start after a day.

[ivaylo]

This sounds kinda viable - https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
Not exactly generating electric power, melting snow and what not, but somewhat practical if it works. Doesn't say what it does to the environment over time...

[Jeff_Birt]

Rule of thumb - all solar/renewable/eco/green/wind/bio fuel/global cooling/global warming/climate change/... is bullshit, all of it. The number one tactic of a bullshit salesman is that 'you have to act now!', 'tomorrow will be too late'. When you try to question anything they say based on science you get the religious zealot argument, 'you must agree with me or you are evil!'

If any of this alternative energy stuff were viable you would not need governments to throw billions of dollars at the companies making it and then spend billions more giving tax breaks to people to buy it. The people who are too poor to blow their money putting solar panels on their own house still have to pay for others to do so.

If global cooling/global warming/climate change had any merit there would be no need for the bullshit salesman tactics, the religious zealot tactics or the even bullshittier (if that is a word) 'the science it settled' tactics. That last on really burns my butt! THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

[drussell]

Not exactly generating electric power, melting snow and what not, but somewhat practical if it works. Doesn't say what it does to the environment over time...

Practical for illuminating a pathway, yes, perhaps.... but this is a discussion about SOLAR FREAKIN' ROADWAYS that generate power and solve all the world's energy and roadway needs with one breakthrough product. 

Even though it is essentially a side-thought, SR can't even get solar powered illuminated blinkies working let alone generate the actual useful energy that is supposed to be the main purpose!  There are plenty of far, far better ways to light a pathway than SOLAR FREAKIN' ROADWAYS

...
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Well, barring some new and novel way to break (or at least make very bendy,) the fundamental laws of physics, there are some certain things of which we can be sure...  Like the fact that you can't get more energy out of ANY solar panel than actually comes from the sun, so things like melting the snow on a roadway using the power harnessed from the sun using (even 100% efficient, theoretical) solar panels mounted down in the road that the snow is falling on are actually impossible. 

(Again, unless you can find new, undiscovered physics or find a way to somehow turn up Sol's luminosity, for example, but that seems like it might have some unintended consequences beyond melting the bit of snow on the road!  )

[LabSpokane]

THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please. 

[Fungus]

Winter is coming...

 

[LabSpokane]

Winter is coming...

 

Ski hill just got its first snow yesterday.  No pressure, guys...

[Jeff_Birt]

THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please.

My main point was NOT global warming. It was that stupid ideas like solar roadways are only even considered because of bullshit salesmen. 'Act now!' and 'The science is settled!' are both bullshit tactics, if you see them used as arguments for any product or idea you can bet it is bullshit.

[LabSpokane]

THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please.

My main point was NOT global warming. It was that stupid ideas like solar roadways are only even considered because of bullshit salesmen. 'Act now!' and 'The science is settled!' are both bullshit tactics, if you see them used as arguments for any product or idea you can bet it is bullshit.

Let there be no doubt that Scott Brusaw is a great salesman and marketing genius.  And I mean that with all sincerity. I never would have thought to execute this the way he has, and that it would be so well received. 

[drussell]

Winter is coming...

I wonder how non-slip they will really remain in the rain and snow?  (They had better be able to melt any slush and snow that falls on them pretty darn fast, which of course is going to burn some serious energy.)  I took a quick look today with them in the rain and figure it will be interesting to see how long it takes before someone slips and falls on them.  I obviously hope nobody gets hurt but people fall all the time on snowy sidewalks.  I've done it myself too many times to count!  I just can't see a glass surface, any glass (or hard plastic) surface, even the very best non-slip glass surface, being less slippery in poor conditions than typical concrete is...  Especially if any layer builds up on them, which is, of course, when concrete becomes a very slippery surface too...

Time will tell! 

Let there be no doubt that Scott Brusaw is a great salesman and marketing genius.  And I mean that with all sincerity. I never would have thought to execute this the way he has, and that it would be so well received.

Slick marketing does not a viable product make.   

Cough..  Batteroo... Cough... Cough...

[jonovid]

bricks and tiles with embedded RGB DMX LED lighting is nothing new.
http://www.made-in-china.com/manufacturers/rgb-led-brick-light.html
So is bricks and roof tiles with embedded solar cells.
https://au.pinterest.com/explore/solar-roof-tiles/
but the solar roadways product with a questionable claims of safety and effectiveness of using non flexible geometric glass solar tiles as a road surface. other then Art or sidewalk use.  the durable surface material must be a type of pre-cast Pavers block cobble tiles or large but flexible mat of illuminated granular glass beads with embedded led matrix's . otherwise to stop cracking and failure of the matrix circuits.
but its also the on-going maintenance of thousands of km of embedded RGB DMX LED lighting or solar roadway that is questionable. LOL 

[Red Squirrel]

TBH I was actually expecting more from these, they are actually worse than I expected.  I knew they were generally not viable, but I get the impression these are absolutely not generating any net positive energy at all and not to mention that half of them arn't even working at all.  Their confidence can be dictated by looking at all those AC-DC power supplies they put in that cabinet.   

I'm also surprised at just how bad the LEDs are, I expected at least that part would have worked right.  I think if all you want to do with these is power the leds, if done right it could very well work strictly off solar and would perhaps be usable in places that get foot traffic only, and that you don't care about in winter.  Basically walking trails and stuff.

I'm sure a snow plow would wreck havoc on these the first few times it passes, until there is a decent hard pack snow layer... of course rendering them useless for most of the year. So even in that application it's not worthwhile.

I'm really trying to think positive about these, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

[Fungus]

I'm sure a snow plow would wreck havoc on these the first few times it passes

Yep. It doesn't bear thinking about.

Any piece of hard debris that gets on the road will be ground into the panels by passing trucks. I'm sure we've all been behind trucks carrying gravel and seen how much falls out the back.

Any accident, any truck with a loose load could cause tens of millions of $$$ in damage and close an entire road for a week.

nb. This can happen with asphalt roads if there's a big oil/diesel spill but it seems like a glass road with electronics inside will be a lot more frequent and a lot more expensive. Not that Solar Roadways will lose any sleep over that.

I think if all you want to do with these is power the leds, if done right it could very well work strictly off solar and would perhaps be usable in places that get foot traffic only, and that you don't care about in winter.  Basically walking trails and stuff.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/

[EEVblog]

TBH I was actually expecting more from these, they are actually worse than I expected.  I knew they were generally not viable, but I get the impression these are absolutely not generating any net positive energy at all and not to mention that half of them arn't even working at all.  Their confidence can be dictated by looking at all those AC-DC power supplies they put in that cabinet.   

You'd think that the #1 requirement for demonstrating solar roadways would be the net power it generates?
Why isn't there a big net kWh display?
This has to be deliberate, just like the lack of any data on their website after all these years.