EEVblog #480 - 300MHz Owon SDS Oscilloscope

[duskglow]

Ok, an excellent point.  I guess as a Christian and engineer, I'm either desensitized to cultural disrespect or oblivious to it due to .  Sure, among some people and in some places I expect others to make a deliberate effort to be polite (and sure it would be nice if everyone did, everywhere, all the time).  Personal attacks are almost universally unacceptable.  But I've never been actually offended by Chinese products with poor English grammar on their box or in their manual.  I don't know the first thing about their grammar or culture so I can hardly justify being offended when they don't get mine quite right.  I can wonder why they didn't make more of an effort though, and wonder what that might mean about the product itself, and I can laugh at it .

It's nice that there is another spiritual person here, I don't feel quite as surrounded.

But back to topic, I look at it this way.  I don't attempt to write things in Mandarin.  I don't run English through babelfish and try to pass it off as functional Chinese, I know that to do so would be an exercise in futility and result in Chinese people everywhere pointing and laughing.  It would also be a lack of respect for the people I'm trying to sell to, because, let's face it - if I'm marketing something in China and don't even make the simplest effort to make my printed material correct, they'd be perfectly justified in wondering whether I'd be capable of providing decent support, in wondering what other corners I cut, and most importantly, whether I really want their business at all in the first place.

That's what this is really about - it's not really about grammar or spelling or "chinglish" or whatever...  It's about respect for the people you're trying to sell to, and respect for yourself as a company, caring about how you come off to people you're trying to sell your product to.

In this particular case, it's pretty clear that the lack of attention to detail and quality shown on the box is reflected in the product itself.  And as Dave's continual rants against cheap Chinese products go, it's not an outlier.

As an aside, I went to the web page for my GQ 5200 reflow station, and found so many grammatical and spelling errors I actually mailed them and told them that they need to fix it.  Their response?  "We'd love to, please help us to correct it."  I sighed and sent them a correction.  I figured it was my good deed for the day.

[Yaksaredabomb]

It's nice that there is another spiritual person here, I don't feel quite as surrounded.
...
...I don't attempt to write things in Mandarin.  I don't run English through babelfish and try to pass it off as functional Chinese, I know that to do so would be an exercise in futility and result in Chinese people everywhere pointing and laughing.  It would also be a lack of respect for the people I'm trying to sell to, because, let's face it - if I'm marketing something in China and don't even make the simplest effort to make my printed material correct, they'd be perfectly justified in wondering whether I'd be capable of providing decent support, in wondering what other corners I cut, and most importantly, whether I really want their business at all in the first place.
...
As an aside, I went to the web page for my GQ 5200 reflow station, and found so many grammatical and spelling errors I actually mailed them and told them that they need to fix it.  Their response?  "We'd love to, please help us to correct it."  I sighed and sent them a correction.  I figured it was my good deed for the day.

Thanks - same here.

Well, I guess I'm a little thick-headed today because it's pretty obvious when you put it that way!  Ha!  I would never dream of trying to sell a product in China that way.  I'd be pretty embarrassed.  I'd absolutely hire someone to help me do it right.  Part of the problem is it would have been so darn easy and cheap for them to get a native English speaker (or even non-native, just a real person haha) to review their own company slogan - not to mention the rest of the box.

Kudos to GQ for taking the criticism well, even if their site should've been better in the first place.  Good on you for being generous and helping out.

[tinhead]

Btw, these 30wfms/s, yes, on "the slowest DSO ever" (no, it's not, LeCroy, TEK have some similar "gears") they need to
be watched from a different point of view:
- let's take a Rigol DS2000, at 14000points we have max 50k wfms/s. Divide now these continues 10M points / Rigol 14k,
  that's 714 times more, so divide now Rigols 50k wfms/s / 714 and we get 70. That's means Rigol's "equivalent" wfms/s
  (to get total of 10Mpoint sampled data at one piece) is 70 wfms/s, this is not that much compared to Owon's 30 wfms/s.

- let's take Agilent DSOX3000, at ~2000point we have 1M wfms/s. Now Owon 10M / Agilent 2k ist 5000, and then
  Agilent 1M wfms div by 5000 is 200. So the DSOX3000 "equivalent" wfms/s is at 200, this is only 7 times faster
  than Owon (and not like 1M wfms/s vs. 30 wfms/s).

I remember LeCory used this as sales argumetation "the data is there, you have only to search for it", and that's the crap
here, the PC software is crap, all you can do is to export to csv and search with 3rd app to find a glitch. So the "idea" behind
what Owon did was maybe good (or at least something what other did as well when faster wfms/s at small buffer was
not possible to get implemented), but due missing inteligent zoom or/and search and/or PC software the implementation is bad.
I however prefer to have small piece of data updated very fast, when impemented properly (DPO-like) the benefit (save of time
while watching/searching loooong records) is huge.

Where Owon made for sure a mistake is the wfms/s at 1k/10k, if they were at 1k let say 1000 wfms/s, everybody
would be happy (or at least not complained about).

Anyone want a bargain?
There's only one at this price and you've seen it in the review.  We tested its bandwidth and it met spec.
As others have said, if all you want is sample rate, bandwidth and 10M memory, then its not bad at all at the advertised price.

that's exact the point (and i don't like Owon, never ever liked), bandwidth is good (and can be for sure changed up to 500MHz), sample rate high enought for 1GHz DSO (even if "only" with 100k, but that's more than enought) and 10Mpoint are a lot
of memory, yes with 1GS/s max, but that's fair enought. And when someone really need to find a glitch, hell, then export
the data and use Excel to search. For that price there is no competition for SDS9302.

[amyk]

Pretty typical "Chinese UI syndrome"... the prevailing thought is mostly "if you can use it/figure out what it says, who cares?"

[marmad]

Btw, these 30wfms/s, yes, on "the slowest DSO ever" (no, it's not, LeCroy, TEK have some similar "gears") they need to
be watched from a different point of view:
- let's take a Rigol DS2000, at 14000points we have max 50k wfms/s. Divide now these continues 10M points / Rigol 14k,
  that's 714 times more, so divide now Rigols 50k wfms/s / 714 and we get 70. That's means Rigol's "equivalent" wfms/s
  (to get total of 10Mpoint sampled data at one piece) is 70 wfms/s, this is not that much compared to Owon's 30 wfms/s.

- let's take Agilent DSOX3000, at ~2000point we have 1M wfms/s. Now Owon 10M / Agilent 2k ist 5000, and then
  Agilent 1M wfms div by 5000 is 200. So the DSOX3000 "equivalent" wfms/s is at 200, this is only 7 times faster
  than Owon (and not like 1M wfms/s vs. 30 wfms/s).

@tinhead: I understand your argument - and I agree with it to some degree - but I just wanted to make two points.

In your comparison, you're making the Rigol slower and the Agilent faster than is actually the case. Since your argument is based around the idea of actual captures per second (as opposed to what gets to the display), let's define the numbers in those terms. For arguments sake, let's say the Owon is capturing 10MPts @ 30 wfrm/s @ 20ns/div (I don't know the precise number at that setting, but this is just an estimate); that would be equivalent to 300MPts/s. The Agilent X3000's wfrm/s rate @ 20ns/div is 960k wfrm/s using 800Pts (I don't know where you got 2000 from: 200ns/(1/4G) = 800); which equates to 768MPts/s. OTOH, the Rigol's wfrm/s rate @ 20ns/div with 14MPt is 142; which equates to 1.988GPts/s - so in pure capture speed, it beats both other DSOs at that setting.

Unfortunately, capture speed is just a part of the equation - and the work of getting the portion of those waveforms that are visible processed and pushed to the display is the more difficult part to do quickly. So, in terms of your original point - yes, it's true, the specifications are closer than it appears if you just look at capture rates - but they are still very far apart when you consider what actually makes it to the screen - as well as the number of individual triggers the DSO can respond to within the given period.

[Slothie]

One of the most disappointing things about all of this is how the Chinese seem to be able to produce excellent hardware and manufacture it to a high quality (I'm talking about test equipment not power adapters !) but then throw awful firmware at it.

I personally have a number of bits of cheap test gear from China which are excellent bits of hardware with frustratingly and unnecessarily crap software. It actually doesn't cost much more to write good software than it does to write bad software, it just takes talent. Judging by the many programmers of Chinese origin I have come across there is nothing gentically unique about the Chinese that prevents them being excellent programmers so surely not ALL the good ones have left China to go work in the west?

Its not like companies like Owon are new startups - they've been producing scopes for years and you think they'd have the money to get someone to design a decent user interface and core software they can move from scope to scope as they develop them. Surely it would be worth getting some advice on what Americans/Europeans/etc expect from user interfaces? To get and listen to customer feedback? Alpha testing with key user groups? This is what the greats like Tek and HP/Agilent did (although depressingly even they seem to be forgetting all they have learned). Perhaps there is something cultural we are missing in the way the Chinese view user interface design and what they need to do is team up with foreign software developers to do it for them in products destined for "western" markets.

Anyhow I'll go back to my '72 Tektronix 7600 and look at some sine waves to calm myself

[BravoV]

Anyhow I'll go back to my '72 Tektronix 7600 and look at some sine waves to calm myself

    ....    <sigged> ... 

[EEVblog]

but they are still very far apart when you consider what actually makes it to the screen - as well as the number of individual triggers the DSO can respond to within the given period.

And that is ultimately all that matters. After all, a scope is used to capture and view waveforms. If a scope can't capture and/or view that (infrequent) waveform, it's useless at that task. But of course is still useful for other things.

[don.r]

Footstool? Doorstop? Driving nails?

[Hydrawerk]

OK, let's say that the waveform update speed 30 waves/sec is OK at 10MB per channel... 

[duskglow]

After reading all of these comments, I wonder if someone could do what they did for the Welec and fix or rewrite the firmware.  I bet it'd be a nice little scope if the buggy firmware wasn't in the way.

[Hydrawerk]

I am not sure what was with Welec, but their firmware was quite open source or something... But Welec had a crap hardware, too. Owon's HW is rather OK. 

[duskglow]

BTW, I just opened a package I got from China.  It was a little 10 pin to 6 pin atmel adapter.  It came with a little business card asking me to give good feedback.  PERFECT English.

See, Owon?  It can be done!

[marmad]

OK, let's say that the waveform update speed 30 waves/sec is OK at 10MB per channel... 

Well, it was OK two years ago - I'm not so sure it's even OK anymore. As I mentioned, the DS2000 can do 142 wfrm/s with 14MPts. So almost 5 times the speed with 40% more memory.

[Nermash]

What do you think, would it be possible for Owon to issue completely new firmware, increasing the update rate at 1k of memory? I have read here that they have some nice FPGA+SoC hardware inside which could provide the raw power needed for processing.

[Rasz]

What do you think, would it be possible for Owon to issue completely new firmware, increasing the update rate at 1k of memory? I have read here that they have some nice FPGA+SoC hardware inside which could provide the raw power needed for processing.

Dude, they couldnt even manage to write screen refresh routine that would not glitch. What makes you think they are capable of upgrading specs with optimized programming?

[marmad]

What do you think, would it be possible for Owon to issue completely new firmware, increasing the update rate at 1k of memory? I have read here that they have some nice FPGA+SoC hardware inside which could provide the raw power needed for processing.

Well, users/owners have been asking/wondering about this since August of 2011 (as well as vernier control of vertical/horizontal, proper 'zoom' routine or markers, etc.). And what is the number of major firmware changes or heavily-requested new features added since then? [as far as I know - I could be wrong]

0.

Edit: And as much as I also dislike Rigol's attitude of secrecy surrounding FW fixes or distribution, a bunch of us owners were complaining for about 4 or 5 months about the way the DS2000 cleared the display and then didn't redraw the waveform while moving it (not a bug - but a bad programming decision) - Rigol went ahead and quietly 'changed it' (i.e. fixed it) in the newest FW, showing, at least, that they're paying attention a bit to their customers.

[Hydrawerk]

I am not a Rigol fan but they make progress, while Tektronix does nothing... (Except TBS1000 funny scope.)

[marmad]

I am not a Rigol fan but they make progress, while Tektronix does nothing... (Except TBS1000 funny scope.)

So, what you're saying is, you're not a Rigol fan? 

[Hydrawerk]

Well, in 10 years Rigol will be like japanese cars nowadays.  Anyway, try setting their website http://www.rigol.com/ to Chinese version and you will see that they sell DP800, MSO4000, DS2000-S and DS1000Z today in China (and not in Europe.)
And I wonder what this is... http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/%E9%AB%98%E6%95%88%E6%B6%B2%E7%9B%B8%E8%89%B2%E8%B0%B1%E7%B3%BB%E7%BB%9F/
It looks like an chemical research machine... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-performance_liquid_chromatography

[marmad]

Anyway, try setting their website http://www.rigol.com/ to Chinese version and you will see that they sell DP800, MSO4000, DS2000-S and DS1000Z today in China (and not in Europe.)

I assume it's their way of trying to iron out remaining problems before releasing products outside their base country - many manufacturers in Western countries do the same thing.

[TomC]

I just posted my likes and dislikes for my SDS7102 after owning it for 5 months.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg246541/#msg246541

Warning: The things I like may make you choke and the things I dislike may make you envision a rubber room.

[big9swimmer]

Thumbs down. I didnt see anything I liked about it.

[Hydrawerk]

Well, it has a low end performance, but still it has large memory, large LCD and VGA output... But these are not the most important specs of a scope.

[jancumps]

.... If you would drop me off randomly anywhere in the world, and I could only speak one language, I would choose English, as there's likely someone nearby who can speak it.

Ever got lost in the Moscow metro?