Author Topic: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown  (Read 20959 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« on: April 23, 2013, 10:04:55 pm »
Teardown Tuesday
How interesting can a box with switches and resistors be?
Not very? How about a multi thousand dollar Genrad metrology grade decade resistance box?

IET's video on the box:


 

Offline ddavidebor

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EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 10:19:48 pm »
I will clean all the old grease Befor use wd-40
David - Professional Engineer - Medical Devices and Tablet Computers at Smartbox AT
Side businesses: Altium Industry Expert writer, http://fermium.ltd.uk (Scientific Equiment), http://chinesecleavers.co.uk (Cutlery),
 

Offline krivx

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 11:52:00 pm »
It's a pretty similar construction to the decade boxes I have, one of which also has milliohm resolution. I posted some pictures here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/h-w-sullivan-dual-dial-non-reactive-resistance-box-restoration/
 

Offline JackOfVA

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 12:02:41 am »
General  Radio spun off part of its business to a new company, QuadTech in the early 1990's -- so QuadTech would have  been responsible for new sales and repair of many older design GR products such as the decade switch boxes.

IET then picked up QuadTech around the year 2000.

That pins down the date of repair, something between 1991 and 2000 or so. (Probably parts were still marked QuadTech for some time after 2000.)
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 12:08:12 am »
General  Radio spun off part of its business to a new company, QuadTech in the early 1990's -- so QuadTech would have  been responsible for new sales and repair of many older design GR products such as the decade switch boxes.
IET then picked up QuadTech around the year 2000.

Ah, that explains it, thanks.
 

Offline Dave

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 01:10:59 am »
"I love it when a plan comes together!"
<fellbuendel> it's arduino, you're not supposed to know anything about what you're doing
<fellbuendel> if you knew, you wouldn't be using it
 

Offline sorin

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 02:21:42 am »
Where is the Vishay link?
 

HLA-27b

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 02:41:11 am »
I have a fleeting suspicion that the thick silver wires are in fact 40% silver brazing rods. Not exactly cheap but a lot more common than one might expect.
 

Offline The_Penguin

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 03:21:23 am »
I don't think I heard you comment in the video about the soldering, can you tell if it is silver solder, or regular tin/lead?
 

Offline ddavidebor

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EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 04:49:11 am »
Well, all the soldering are giant blob, who cares of the tipe of the lead
David - Professional Engineer - Medical Devices and Tablet Computers at Smartbox AT
Side businesses: Altium Industry Expert writer, http://fermium.ltd.uk (Scientific Equiment), http://chinesecleavers.co.uk (Cutlery),
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 04:54:07 am »
I would hazard to guess that the discolouring on those ribbon wires might have been from someone abusing that selection with a bit too much current. It would take quite a bit of current though so maybe it was a way to trim them by heating them.
 

Offline eevblogfan

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 04:54:18 am »
hey

dave - pleas explain me something , can't someone like me make something like that ? 

not tallking to that sort of "quallity"  . I mean  , can't I buy simple fine quality switch ( link below)
and wound my own resistors from nichrome ?

nichrome is not that costy , let's say 1$ per resistor I make out of it . so assuming I have got precision reference to compare with ( I do because I might go to work on Cal lab ) so then trimming the resistors is just the right angel tongue and some fine tuning skills ,

so overall say I'll invest 100+ $ . not that bad for say 0.01% or even better 0_0

for the case I thought about nice plywood made box and perhaps just for fun I'll plate the internal with some shielding plates and connect them to "Guard" terminal

so please tell me - is this nonsense or possible ? can you guide us and do one yourself be4 I'll manage ? ( I can't see when I'll be able to do that . perhaps within month or more  :-// )



switch : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotary-Selector-Switches-4-Pole-11-Positions-4-Deck-220V-/390509100965?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5aec27ffa5

*I thought about that switch due to the tade off between quality price and contact resistance , so 4 pole added together should provide relaibillity and pretty low contact resistance ( to the first decade or so )

nichrome : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nichrome-wire-32-Gauge-60-series-100-FT-0-29oz-Resistance-Resistor-AWG-/261119375395?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccbed7823

thank you in advance :)
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 07:19:17 am »
not tallking to that sort of "quallity"  . I mean  , can't I buy simple fine quality switch ( link below)
and wound my own resistors from nichrome ?
Sure, but there are big problems.

1. Nichrome, like the one you referred to, changes by 2% going from 20C to 100C. That is much worse then many off-the-shelf resistors. Genrad probably used selected batches of magnanin or Evanohm wire to make those resistors.

2. You have to get different gauges wires for different resistance ranges. You will probably have trouble finding wire thin enough to make the 10K resistors. The wire used in the decade box is coated while most of the cheap nichrome wire is uncoated so you cannot let adjacent turns touch. The formers Genrad use is ceramic, so they may even be able to anneal the wires to improve stability.

3. It is very hard to get switches that are any good. The ones you have found are probably rated at something like 20 milliOhms resistance when new, and they don't have the self-cleaning property of the solid silver alloy switches. You can parallel the poles, so that switch you found is probably a good find. You might be able to get the contact resistance down to 5 milliohms. Whereas the switches in Dave's decade box tend to have a very consistent resistance, your $10 switch may have contact resistance that can vary each time you change the position, particularly at very low currents. You can probably make a good decade box of up to 0.01% accuracy in the upper ranges if you use commercial high stability resistors. However, you may be looking at a price of over $60 a decade for decent 1/2W precision low drift high stability resistors.
 

Offline mikes

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 08:06:04 am »
You can buy Genrad 5-6 decade  boxes off ebay for <$100. Even if a few resistors are burned and need replacing, the switches and box are better and cheaper than what you suggest.
 

Offline eevblogfan

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 08:18:22 am »
hey

the only one who goes to 100K is too costy ( on ebay) he wants 400$ and that's before the shipping cost to my country , so I guess Unless I'll begin working and having sallary - the right choice is the DIY one made out of nichrome or whatever sort of wier :P

any way . it shouldn't cost in the order of 1000$ or more . that's stupide 0_0

I rather buy fluke 87V rather then good decade box  :-+

Ps , I don't worry about that silly 5mOhm , I don't need better then 0.01% 250PPM either , for 20$ a daced I have more then good enough . don't mind 10,000.035 ohm . that's not that big of a deal for me 0_0 ( 7 decads at 5 mOhm each rotary switch *when new* )

Cheers :)
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 09:30:59 am »
With the risk of getting another video addressed at me, proving me wrong (  ;) ) why didn't you connect the guard terminal to the shielding of the decade resistance box? Maybe it would have the least significant digit of the measurement a little more stable at least...
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2013, 09:37:29 am »
With the risk of getting another video addressed at me, proving me wrong (  ;) ) why didn't you connect the guard terminal to the shielding of the decade resistance box? Maybe it would have the least significant digit of the measurement a little more stable at least...

There were a few things I could do there to improve the measurement, this was just a quick'n'dirty.
I was thinking maybe another quick video on that to see how much difference it makes.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2013, 09:39:24 am »
I rather buy fluke 87V rather then good decade box  :-+

The prices aren't aimed at you!
They have sold 10's of thousands of these things, so plenty of demand for niche high end products like this.
The average hobbyist just needs 1% decade box with Tricky Dick switches.
 

Offline Fezder

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2013, 03:21:37 pm »
woa, nice value for such box.....but, i understand :D.
but, what are these used anyways? sorry, newer heard about usage of these....
Both analog/digital hobbyist, reparing stuff from time to time
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2013, 03:30:33 pm »
but, what are these used anyways? sorry, newer heard about usage of these....

One this good can be used for calibration of ohmmeters.
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Fezder

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2013, 03:43:16 pm »
but, what are these used anyways? sorry, newer heard about usage of these....

One this good can be used for calibration of ohmmeters.

hmm, sounds tricky :S...
Both analog/digital hobbyist, reparing stuff from time to time
 

Offline eevblogfan

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2013, 06:39:23 pm »
I rather buy fluke 87V rather then good decade box  :-+

The prices aren't aimed at you!- yup I know ><" , that was simply my own opinion for that particular matter  :-+
They have sold 10's of thousands of these things, so plenty of demand for niche high end products like this.

The average hobbyist just needs 1% decade box with Tricky Dick switches.- yup that's the most stupid thing , you don't need calibration standard - But silly varible pretty okay resistors , so with 1% resistors you can get better then 0.01% final tweaked value

BTW : dave , I thank you A-lot for making me remember that I don't have the need for that expand , thank you for safing me that precious money :) - HUGE thumb up  :-+
 

Offline nicknails

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 12:16:09 am »
Very nice bit of kit!  I love the switches! So simple, but effective and elegant.
 

Offline Frangible

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 03:08:14 am »
Here are some pics of a much older model decade box also made by GR.  It's had a really hard life (including a blown out section), so it's not much use as a standard.  But for tweaking resistor values in old circuits, it's still a peach!
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: EEVblog #461 - Genrad Decade Resistance Box Teardown
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 03:24:55 am »
Wow, Super Lube!  It's CFIA rated for incidental food contact, unlike WD-40 or DeOxit...

Love the stuff.

 


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