EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car

[EEVblog]

You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/

Doesn't it depend on the car? Some electric cars seem to be able to regenerate so much that they will roll slowly down the steepest hills without the friction brakes applied. Others seem to top out their regenertaion quite early, and the friction brakes are needed quite a lot in a very hilly area.

I can only speak for the IONIQ. My house is at the bottom of a very steep road, about as steep as you can get, and yes, no need for friction brakes.

[SeanB]

About the only time an EV will need brakes is when you have the edge case of a long downhill with a fully charged, or near fully charged, battery, so that regenerative braking is not able to be used, as there is no load available to dump the energy into. Edge case, in most cases you will have a battery under 80%, which will accept charge up to a point, and which will take the majority of recovered energy. However the actual friction brakes will still get some use, even if it is minimal, so should at least get enough use to keep them rust free.

[sandalcandal]

Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/

As I expected, the start of importing China made Model 3s has resulted in significant price reductions for Australia.
From article Dave linked:
"Tesla has slashed the prices of its Model 3 sedan – now sourced from China – with savings of between $3000 and $9000 off the most recent RRPs, and more than $17,000 off the highest price from 12 months ago."
Cited article for China import: https://www.caradvice.com.au/958695/australias-largest-ever-tesla-shipment-arrives-in-port-kembla-nsw/

Edit: found my quote from last year

[...]
I think the newer Tesla models (3 and Y) are also good value (outside Australia) if you can consider stuff like supercharger networks, auto pilot and reputation for excellent battery life. Although on the point of battery life, all manufacturers are offering pretty equal warranty on batteries for their newer models. With the news Tesla is likely to start shipping cars out of their Giga Shanghai factory (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia) the cost of a Tesla in Australia will hopefully go down in the "near future".

[nctnico]

Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/

Now compare prices & sales numbers with those of VW's ID.3 and ID.4 (if these are available in Australia). Chances are the Model3 doesn't sell very well so they have to cut the price. In the NL VW's ID.3 + ID.4 models outsell all models from Tesla 14 to 1 from the start of 2021.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car. 
[...]

And, crucially, on how the car is being driven...  a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs...  (and larger than standard discs up front, too).  It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.

No, doesn't matter. You snipped the words 'worst case'. Unless a manufacturer really cut corners and the regulators aren't watching, you can't get enough energy in the car for the brakes to overheat. At least in the EU it is part of the vehicle testing/regulations before it is allowed to be sold in the EU. Ofcourse the driver can still do stupid things like going downhill with the brakes applied but even the biggest disk brakes aren't up to such abuse.

I used to do track days, where people brought in their "ordinary" cars for a day of fun.  Trust me, brakes can and do overheat when the car is driven hard...

Larger brakes shed heat better. On the street, this is rarely an issue unless you're descending a mountain. On the track, the brakes are used hard, often several times a minute, building up heat that can't be shed as fast as it builds up...   the discs can literally glow!

[SilverSolder]

And, crucially, on how the car is being driven...  a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs...  (and larger than standard discs up front, too).  It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.

You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/

I can see that applying to an EV.   Wonder if driving an EV hard ends up heating up the generators / charging circuits / battery, so the car eventually switches to using friction brakes?  -  that seems to happen with my hybrid Ford in hilly/ mountainous driving conditions....

[sandalcandal]

Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/

Now compare prices & sales numbers with those of VW's ID.3 and ID.4 (if these are available in Australia). Chances are the Model3 doesn't sell very well so they have to cut the price. In the NL VW's ID.3 + ID.4 models outsell all models from Tesla 14 to 1 from the start of 2021.

Neither are available. VW sells no EVs in Australia. I guess they aren't having to pay fines or offset penalties here. Trying to apply your EU market observations where you have "domestic" production of EVs to Australia is flawed.
"The top-selling electric car in Europe in 2020, the Volkswagen ID.3, won't be launched in Australia until at least 2023, its maker says. ... So, why didn't Volkswagen sell a single EV in Australia in 2020? Because there were none for sale." https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-04-20/australians-want-to-buy-electric-cars-what-is-stopping-us/100071550

List of EVs available in Australia with prices: https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/electric-cars-australia

This is how Tesla sales are in Australia

https://thedriven.io/2021/06/25/tesla-model-3-gains-on-australian-ice-market-as-2021-sales-reach-new-high/
One of the most popular vehicles full stop; let alone electric.


Note: Graph is truncated at 1000, not even showing full extent of Model 3 popularity.
https://thedriven.io/2021/04/09/tesla-mg-and-porsche-lead-doubling-of-electric-car-sales-in-first-quarter/

"Over the past two years Tesla has sold almost twice as many electric cars in Australia compared to all other electric vehicles combined." https://www.caradvice.com.au/914746/exclusive-tesla-sales-in-australia-revealed-up-16-per-cent-in-2020/

"Tesla imported more battery-electric vehicles into Australia in 2020 than all other brands combined" https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/tesla-dominates-australian-ev-sales-128929/

More historical data and sources on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Australia

Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger. Now with lowered costs it's bound to get even stronger market share in Australia.

[nctnico]

No, the only thing your graph shows is lack of serious competition for Tesla.

[sandalcandal]

No, the only thing your graph shows is lack of serious competition for Tesla.

And yet its the best that there is by a huge margin.

What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.

What is clear is that Volkswagen deliberately decided to price the ID.4 very aggressively in the US, possibly below its manufacturing costs – something the automotive market classifies as "buying market share." That would make it lose money in each unit it sells in the country for an even more compelling apology note due to Dieselgate.

https://insideevs.com/news/506341/vw-id4-profitability-us-price/

[james_s]

I used to do track days, where people brought in their "ordinary" cars for a day of fun.  Trust me, brakes can and do overheat when the car is driven hard...

Larger brakes shed heat better. On the street, this is rarely an issue unless you're descending a mountain. On the track, the brakes are used hard, often several times a minute, building up heat that can't be shed as fast as it builds up...   the discs can literally glow!

I've done that too, and yes I've seen front brake discs glowing orange. I've also seen it happen in a car that got a seized caliper piston but that's obviously a malfunction and not normal expected behavior. It's not uncommon to overheat brakes coming down mountain passes in a car with an automatic gearbox too, there's much less engine braking and you end up riding the brakes a lot when it's miles of steep downhill driving.

[mikeselectricstuff]

What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.

Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries

[sandalcandal]

What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.

Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries

That's a fair point for smaller vehicles but the ID.4 though?

[EEVblog]

What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.

Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries

I lot of people don't know how big the Telsa model S is, it's an enornmous car.

[EEVblog]

I've done that too, and yes I've seen front brake discs glowing orange. I've also seen it happen in a car that got a seized caliper piston but that's obviously a malfunction and not normal expected behavior. It's not uncommon to overheat brakes coming down mountain passes in a car with an automatic gearbox too, there's much less engine braking and you end up riding the brakes a lot when it's miles of steep downhill driving.

That happened to me driving in the in a rental coming down from a plateu in Arizona, the brakes were practically useless and we couldn't completely stop. Had to run up an enbankment to stop and let them cool down.

[EEVblog]

Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.

That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.

[coppice]

I've done that too, and yes I've seen front brake discs glowing orange. I've also seen it happen in a car that got a seized caliper piston but that's obviously a malfunction and not normal expected behavior. It's not uncommon to overheat brakes coming down mountain passes in a car with an automatic gearbox too, there's much less engine braking and you end up riding the brakes a lot when it's miles of steep downhill driving.

That happened to me driving in the in a rental coming down from a plateu in Arizona, the brakes were practically useless and we couldn't completely stop. Had to run up an enbankment to stop and let them cool down.

That's why almost every automatic has the ability for the driver to force the car into a lower gear. If you don't use that you certainly will have brake heat problems on steep declines. Some automatics now sense when the car is on a steep decline, and use a lower gear automatically.

[sandalcandal]

Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.

That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.

I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society

[2N3055]

Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.

That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.

I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society

So what, people that cannot (or won't) buy Tesla should buy a bicycle ??
LOL...

[coppice]

Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.

That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.

I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society

I suspect most of the people who have been working from home for the first time in the last year will gradually return to working in offices. However, if they don't it will be interesting to see what this does to car ownership. The key reason for a lot of people's car ownership is commuting. If they don't commute, calling a taxi a couple of times a week might be a lot cheaper. However, there are only a few places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, where people would rather use public transport than own a car right now.

[sandalcandal]

That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.

I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society

So what, people that cannot (or won't) buy Tesla should buy a bicycle ??
LOL...

Pretty much Buying any car is a luxury and a "flex". If people have disposable income for buying a new car might as well have it be a flashy Tesla. That's my feeling from talking to the millennial crowd.

In Australia it would be more taking public transport or ride sharing (Uber) rather than cycling.

[ve7xen]

You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.

With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.

[james_s]

With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.

I don't like having debt and bills hanging over my head, even if the interest is ridiculously low like that. I don't buy new cars though, and of the people I know who do buy new cars, it's only the really wealthy ones who pay cash for new cars, the vast majority of people take out a loan.

[james_s]

I suspect most of the people who have been working from home for the first time in the last year will gradually return to working in offices. However, if they don't it will be interesting to see what this does to car ownership. The key reason for a lot of people's car ownership is commuting. If they don't commute, calling a taxi a couple of times a week might be a lot cheaper. However, there are only a few places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, where people would rather use public transport than own a car right now.

Even when I was commuting to the office I took the bus. My car is for everything else, I can't take the bus to our vacation cabin, I can't take the bus to the hardware store, I can't haul a load of lumber on a roof rack with an Uber ride. Public transit isn't really a viable option in the suburbs and I hate city life.

[james_s]

Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.

That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.

The first EVs I saw a lot of over here were Nissan Leafs, it seemed like they were everywhere. Lately it's Teslas, it's really rare that I go anywhere without seeing several of them on the road. They're not cheap but ICE cars have gotten really expensive too, you don't see many cars of any type that are under about $40k anymore at which point $50k for a Tesla isn't all that much of a stretch. This area is admittedly quite affluent though, we have Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and numerous other tech companies so people with money aren't rare. When I went for a walk the other night there was a Ferrari F355 parked on my street, I saw a Lotus the other day, lots of other upper middle class type luxury cars around too so my experience may not be typical.

[james_s]

That happened to me driving in the in a rental coming down from a plateu in Arizona, the brakes were practically useless and we couldn't completely stop. Had to run up an enbankment to stop and let them cool down.

That's a really bad situation, as it seems you found out. The most dangerous thing about it is that you have to be aware of the potential for it to happen ahead of time because once the brakes fade you're kind of SOL. Usually I'd say use the brakes to slow down instead of putting wear on the engine but a mountain pass is a different situation.