EEVblog #132 - Delusional Dyson Marketing

[Lance]

Just watched it, and I completely agree. Gotta hate those marketing people. You have to admit slippery as they are, they are quite good at what they do. One bit of marketing I personally just can't get over is how the people at Apple like to differentiate machines using the terms Mac and PCs. Apple computers are still Personal Computers with a brand name.

So I guess taking it apart is gonna have to wait till the next episode?

[williefleete]

the whole damn greenie movement is another religious cult if you ask me
no one can prove or deny it and yet people try to ram the idea down peoples throats and try making money in the form of "carbon credits"
either way those kinds of vacuums dont produce CO2 in any way shape or form unless you charge it (if it uses rechargables) using your car or some coal fired power station and even then it would be minuscule and (at least in NZ) we use hydro in some areas anyway so nil CO2
the whole carbon "neutral" thing is just stupid IMO.

[mikeselectricstuff]

ISTR reading somewhere it has a PIC in the motor controller - only one way to find out...!

[TheWelly888]

^^^
Oh, so that is what they mean by "digital motor" on the box? A microcontroller used to control the motor!

[TopherTheME]

the whole damn greenie movement is another religious cult if you ask me
no one can prove or deny it ....

You think the IPCC data is a bunch of BS?

[Balaur]

I'm somewhat disappointed with the bag-less vacuums. I use one myself and I also exchanged some views with other users and it looks to me that the centrifugal, cyclonic (or whatever word of the day) technology is just not so effective.

The separation of dust is not perfect. It may work very nicely for larger particle but fine dust goes through the unnecessarily-complex inner workings of the vacuum without stopping. The last line of defense is a good, old-fashioned filter, that you need to clean or wash ever so often.

In my past experience, I had to empty the dust reservoir and clean these filters more often than I would have liked to. I'm using a Bosch vacuum, but my work colleague have the same issues on his Dyson DC19.

My unit also accepts bags (instead of the removable dust reservoir). I've tried using a bag, and never got back to the bag-less configuration, things are so much better: way more power, takes ages to fill the bag, no filters to clean.

So, I found that the whole bag-less "revolution" is strongly driven by the marketing and commercial efforts instead of a real technological advancement. I find that Dyson started this bag-less, mass-market phenomenon, strongly overplaying the advantages of their solution. The other companies try to align by proposing the same class of products and everybody acts without any real concern for the actual needs or experience of the customers. (Even if the marketing says otherwise).

However, I like the Dyson Blade hand dryer. I don't know if it's much more expensive than other devices and I hope that my airport taxes ticket money doesn't go straight to re-equipping bathrooms, but I like it.

[PetrosA]

I always thought that Dyson products looked a bit gimmicky. The Airblade dryer costs about $1400 US. That's considerably more expensive than other hand dryers with street prices for something like the Xlerator (high speed air dryer) about $700 and traditional models between $300-$500. The NSF label is "interesting" as well. The NSF P335 standard that the Airblade dryer conforms to is a new standard that was written in cooperation with a Dyson representative. Hmm. Aside from that, the implication in their advertising that rubbing your hands together releases dangerous bacteria is also misleading. Hygienically speaking, the greatest accumulation of dangerous bacteria on the hands are found in the recesses around the fingernails and under the fingernails. Dead skin particles from the back of the hand may sound unpleasant, but they aren't very threatening to health since exposed skin is generally too dry to promote bacterial growth. If this dryer truly can dry the fingernail area effectively, there may be an argument in its favor. If not, it's just more marketing gimmick.

The NSF P335 basic description can be downloaded here:

http://www.nsf.org/business/engineering_and_research/NSF_P335_Q&A.pdf

[FreeThinker]

 Delusional Dyson Marketing? ALL Marketing by definition is delusional, the truth would never sell!As to 'Taking it apart' my be a bit of a wait, I think the purchase was more of a wifey lead thing than a Dave one, so it may take a bit of prising away.....Then if it breaks...ouch!

[Bored@Work]

As a former Dyson owner I can also attest mine didn't deliver what was promised.

I have no issue with the bag-less / reusable bag concept for vacuum cleaners. I well remember my mother had one with a removable bag many decades ago and clinged to it for decades, because she found the ones with a one-way bag pointless. And so do I.

But the "cyclone" thing didn't work out for me. It sucks. Well, wait, no, that is exactly what it didn't. It was advertised as keeping its strengths while the reservoir fills with filth. Not for me. After 15 minutes of usage the performance went notably down. And it sucks when you have to empty the reservoir every 15 minutes.

Right when it was out of warranty the reservoir broke. The bottom of it broke out. A replacement part was as expensive as a new no-name conventional vacuum. Guess what ...

Regarding marketing people. They deserve no respect. The voluntarily choose to become professional liars. It doesn't change a thing that you can study professional lying and getting a degree in it, reading "Marketing". That doesn't buy them any respect in my eyes. It just tells me they really badly wanted to be liars.

[Balaur]

As a former Dyson owner I can also attest mine didn't deliver what was promised.

But the "cyclone" thing didn't work out for me. It sucks. Well, wait, no, that is exactly what it didn't. It was advertised as keeping its strengths while the reservoir fills with filth. Not for me. After 15 minutes of usage the performance went notably down. And it sucks when you have to empty the reservoir every 15 minutes.

Exactly!

I always thought that Dyson products looked a bit gimmicky. The Airblade dryer costs about $1400 US. That's considerably more expensive than other hand dryers with street prices for something like the Xlerator (high speed air dryer) about $700 and traditional models between $300-$500.

OK, I no longer like the Airblade. So expensive! And to think that they managed to coax a lot of airports and public places to convert!

And don't get me started on hyper-sanitary obsession. When I was a child, I ate dirt and asked for more (and the thing about 10 miles to school uphill both ways)

[FreeThinker]

I always thought that Dyson products looked a bit gimmicky. The Airblade dryer costs about $1400 US. That's considerably more expensive than other hand dryers with street prices for something like the Xlerator (high speed air dryer) about $700 and traditional models between $300-$500. The NSF label is "interesting" as well. The NSF P335 standard that the Airblade dryer conforms to is a new standard that was written in cooperation with a Dyson representative. Hmm. Aside from that, the implication in their advertising that rubbing your hands together releases dangerous bacteria is also misleading. Hygienically speaking, the greatest accumulation of dangerous bacteria on the hands are found in the recesses around the fingernails and under the fingernails. Dead skin particles from the back of the hand may sound unpleasant, but they aren't very threatening to health since exposed skin is generally too dry to promote bacterial growth. If this dryer truly can dry the fingernail area effectively, there may be an argument in its favor. If not, it's just more marketing gimmick.

The NSF P335 basic description can be downloaded here:

http://www.nsf.org/business/engineering_and_research/NSF_P335_Q&A.pdf

I work in the food industry and hand washing is a way of life.We replaced all the existing paper towel despensers with this type of unit and they are BRILLIANT.The initial costs have been recovered in less than 6 months but the biggest plus is the Hygiene aspect.Hands get properly dried quickly and no wet paper lying around in bins (or on the floor) Just a quick wipe over with a cloth or a spray/wipe with cleaner is all that is needed.Other standard blower types were tried but were infective in the time required to  to dry or just in reliability.These units have had quite heavy use 24/7 for well over 12 months and not blinked once.Great product.

[Lance]

So I guess from this discussion we arrive at the conclusion that Dyson is the Apple of vacuums.

[PetrosA]

I work in the food industry and hand washing is a way of life.We replaced all the existing paper towel despensers with this type of unit and they are BRILLIANT.The initial costs have been recovered in less than 6 months but the biggest plus is the Hygiene aspect.Hands get properly dried quickly and no wet paper lying around in bins (or on the floor) Just a quick wipe over with a cloth or a spray/wipe with cleaner is all that is needed.Other standard blower types were tried but were infective in the time required to  to dry or just in reliability.These units have had quite heavy use 24/7 for well over 12 months and not blinked once.Great product.

I guess if each hand washing station is consuming more than $300 worth of paper towels/month it's possible, but I doubt you recovered the original investment, installation (I'll guess between $400 and $800 per unit depending on layout) and utility costs that fast unless you either got them much cheaper than I see or you have dozens of employees actually consuming that volume of paper towel at each station.

I'm not claiming that they aren't great. I've only ever seen them once or twice and didn't look at them or their performance very critically. The only thing I would say is that their website description looks gimicky and not geared towards industry, but rather towards a general consumer.

[FreeThinker]

Well we have approx 500 employees who would on average wash 10 times a shift.I think we were using close on £1600 a month on TORQ (paper roll towel).This was replaced by 14 dryer unit at around £450/500 each.Installation costs were negligible done in house and only requiring a 240v single phase supply ( mostly at hand ) Then factor in the disposal costs, servicing costs (refilling dispensers) storage (stock) etc and the savings are significant.Running costs are quoted as 4.4w/dry or using my estimates 500 x10 per day approx 20kw say £10 per day.With minimum wage at £5+ this is 2 hours labour (excluding all other labour costs).Plus employees like them, paper towels never quite got your hands 'feeling' dry.

[williefleete]

You think the IPCC data is a bunch of BS?

i have my doubts yes

[alm]

Running costs are quoted as 4.4w/dry or using my estimates 500 x10 per day approx 20kw say £10 per day.

How dare you confuse power and energy on an EE forum! Unless it's really pulling 20kW from a single 240V connection into a small appliance, but it would probably be closer to a jet engine than a hands dryer with that amount of power.

[PetrosA]

Running costs are quoted as 4.4w/dry or using my estimates 500 x10 per day approx 20kw say £10 per day.

How dare you confuse power and energy on an EE forum! Unless it's really pulling 20kW from a single 240V connection into a small appliance, but it would probably be closer to a jet engine than a hands dryer with that amount of power.

4.4x500x10=22kW no? FreeThinker has the math right as far as I can see.

FreeThinker, So my thoughts were correct that you have both a lower than quoted price and the volume of workers to make this pay off. My estimate for installation was based on the understanding that you didn't have power run to the units already (you said they were using paper), but I guess that was wrong. I think if they were available here for the same price (approx. $780) it would make them seem more reasonable than the $1400 price I'm seeing online.

[alm]

My point that 1W is not equal to 1Wh (or Ws). Power and energy use different units, and are different physical quantities. A statement like it takes 4.4W/dry or 20kW per day is nonsense, just like talking about a 1200Wh motor. I expect your average journalist to confuse them, but I would expect people on an electronics forum to know the difference.

[FreeThinker]

http://www.energybulbs.co.uk/products/Energy+Saving+Products/Low+Energy+Hand+Dryers/DYSON+AIRBLADE+AB03+HAND+DRYER/2463550729
This is the link I based my price on less a bit for 14 units, I don't know the actual purchase price but was told 'around' £500/ unit by the guy who bought them.
Dyson quote 4.4w/dry.I think it is reasonable to then multiply the total no of drys /day to get a KWhr figure but the bottom line is that the power requirements are small.The specs quote a power requirement of 1600w.This would equate to 360 drys /hr or 4.4w at a 10 second dry (typical figures).This is a Total power requirement PER DAY for the 14 units not 20 kw hrs per unit per hour.About 1250 watts per day per unit.

[alm]

Dyson quote 4.4w/dry.I think it is reasonable to then multiply the total no of drys /day to get a KWhr figure but the bottom line is that the power requirements are small.The specs quote a power requirement of 1600w.This would equate to 360 drys /hr or 4.4w at a 10 second dry (typical figures).This is a Total power requirement PER DAY for the 14 units not 20 kw hrs per unit per hour.About 1250 watts per day per unit.

You mean 1600W power for 10s, which is about 4.4Wh. Multiplying by number of drys to get daily energy usage is fine, as long as you start with a unit of energy, not power. And the energy usage per unit per day would be about 1250Wh, power would be 1600W for whatever amount of time it's on (about 5000/14*10s on average), and about 0W (or whatever standby usage is) for the rest of the time. Sorry to be a nitpicker, but this is an electronics forum, so I don't think getting basic physics right is too much to ask.

[FreeThinker]

Dyson quote 4.4w/dry.I think it is reasonable to then multiply the total no of drys /day to get a KWhr figure but the bottom line is that the power requirements are small.The specs quote a power requirement of 1600w.This would equate to 360 drys /hr or 4.4w at a 10 second dry (typical figures).This is a Total power requirement PER DAY for the 14 units not 20 kw hrs per unit per hour.About 1250 watts per day per unit.

You mean 1600W power for 10s, which is about 4.4Wh. Multiplying by number of drys to get daily energy usage is fine, as long as you start with a unit of energy, not power. And the energy usage per unit per day would be about 1250Wh, power would be 1600W for whatever amount of time it's on (about 5000/14*10s on average), and about 0W (or whatever standby usage is) for the rest of the time. Sorry to be a nitpicker, but this is an electronics forum, so I don't think getting basic physics right is too much to ask.

I Agree I should of stated 4.4whours /Dry to be correct my Bad.

[Alex]

It seems the thread is drifting towards a rant against marketing.

It is my belief that marketing has its own place(s) in the product development cycle. Don't forget that it was marketing of some form that brought you on this forum, and it was marketing of some form that let you find out about say Arduino boards. Apart from raising awareness marketing is also used as a research tool to specify characteristics of a product. For example Rigol identified a gap in the oscilloscope market and is now offering good value for money scopes. Marketing is also used to differentiate products and here is where things can get messy. Take http://www.innocentdrinks.co.uk/ for example. How hard is it to extract juice from fruits? The core product is the same as any juice/smoothie. However 'wrapping' the product in a 'green' and 'innocent' image allows the company to increase the price tag!

As an engineer I get angry when someone is trying to sell to me something based on its 'perceived' value rather than its 'actual' value. It is insulting to do that to an engineer that has been trained to look at the specifications rather than the packaging or even the words on the packaging. However we are a small percentage of the population. Does the typical user of a Dyson vacuum cleaner know what a neodymium magnet is? No! Dave bypassed that in his vblog as he knows what it is. But to the typical user it will sound cool and it would justify the price of the product! But even we engineers are delusional (to use Dave's word). Even we pay attention to looks and are affected by marketing. How many here own an ipod (random example)? It is just a small portable media player! We are all guilty!

To be a well-rounded engineer you need to understand the concepts that surround a product. Employers love it!

There you go, an anti-rant on marketing.

[FreeThinker]

Check out this link https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1689.msg23149#msg23149 .This is pure cynical marketing, it annoys me, the Dyson less so.I agree the marketing is a vital tool but when it insults my intelligence it is a totally negative one.

[JohnS_AZ]

Bringing up Dyson has hit one of my hot buttons.

The thing that has always pissed me off about their ads are that they either say or strongly imply that he actually invented these technologies.

Vortex particle separation? It's been around a hundred years in cabinet shops, lumber mills, and other industrial settings. Nothing new there.

Air knives (the hand dryer)? I installed air knives on a post-wave solder cleaning station to dry circuit boards easily 25 years ago. Nothing new there.

Air Multipliers (their new insanely priced fan)? We used those to purge a nitrogen reflow furnace about the same time.

Granted, they're a bunch of really talented applications engineers, but I haven't seen a single "invention" come out of the place.

BTW ... We have a big Dyson vacuum cleaner. I hated it enough to go an install a whole-house central vacuum system with the vacuum motor and dust collector OUTSIDE where it belongs. :-)

[Bored@Work]

It is my belief that marketing has its own place(s)

>
Yes, in hell.