EEVblog #1218 - 1GHz Oscilloscope Spec Shootout

[Dubbie]

Anything less was practically unheard of except on portable devices.

Like a scope for example?

[EEVblog]

Dave mentioned something in the video about zone triggers. When I bought my scope I didn’t think I would get much use from them. Turns out I use them all the time. One thing they are great for is a really fast way to set up a trigger hold off. Just draw an exclude box to the left of your trigger point. The are tons of dumb tricks like that which can be done the “proper” way with other triggers, but when you’re in the flow you can do a ton with on-the-fly zone triggers.  Anyone else use them like this?

Guilty!
It's almost the equivalent of the lazy man's AutoSet button 

[EEVblog]

One problem may be the data mapping system.
Keysight for example have a fixed 800x600 in the ASIC, and map samples to the screen all inside the ASIC.
So you'd have to have 1080p built into the mapping system from the get-go with a fast data path

Limiting an ASIC to an ancient 800x600 seems to be a big overlook in future planning? If I were designing it, I would probably pick 1080p or 2.5K as the limit since LCDs with those resolutions are very common. Maybe even 4K to really be futureproof - ASICs are expensive to design but (relatively) cheap to manufacture.

The Megazoon IV ASIC was released in Feb 2011
https://www.embedded.com/electronics-news/4213152/Agilent-uses-new-ASIC-in-MSO-market-attack
I think I once calculated that the Megazoom chips had been released every 6 years before that (so we are well overdue now BTW).
That puts the original development starting probably around 2005-2006
So 800x600 would have been plenty for that time period.

[EEVblog]

It doesn't matter when you do the comparison, it's always going to be "unfair" to someone.

True, but

It's true so therefore you don't get any buts!
If I did it tomorrow there'll be another but, and another after that and another after that.

at this very point, only the 1GHz model of the RTM3K is drastically discounted. Actually, while many of us dream of a >= 1GHz scope, very few hobbyists will be willing to invest >= 10k-20k USD/€.

Who said it was aimed at hobbyists?

So a 500MHz shootout would have been probably more interesting for the target audience and also a logical step when including the MSO7000. And when comparing the 500MHz models right now, even the base model RTM3k-54 (without MSO option) costs more than twice as much as an SDS5054X.

So 500MHz is hobbyist price friendly but 1GHz is not?
Sorry, not buying it.
Why 500Mhz? Why not 350MHz so we can include the popular R&S RTB2000?
The shootout options will always be endless, my video is what it is.

Besides, the current Rigol discount for the DS7000/MSO7000 doesn't only include all options, but also a frequency upgrade for the 250MHz and 300MHz models.
https://www.rigol.eu/promos/
So buying a MSO7054 ($11299) instead of an MSO7034 ($8299) would make as much sense as buying the RTM3K base model right now.

Sure, like I said in the videos, there are always differences in pricing and deals and countries etc. Always re-do your own local price evaluation!

[EEVblog]

That ASIC’s specs were probably set almost 15 years ago. 800x600 probably seemed extravagant at the time.

1024x768 was a common resolution for laptops back then, with 1280x1024 being common on desktops and higher end laptops. Anything less was practically unheard of except on portable devices.

But nobody was doing that on a small screen which is what all bench scopes were using back then. Only very recently, almost 15 years later have we started getting large screen bench scopes like the Tek 3&4 Series. And even then they are essentially creating a different market segment to the smaller screen bench scopes.

[nctnico]

The Keysight DSO/MSO7000 series,  some Lecroys  and Tektronix TDS5000/TDS7000 all have 10" (-ish) screens.

[0xdeadbeef]

The Agilent 7000 series  had a 12.1" XGA (1024x768) screen around 2009.
LeCroy had 12.1" WXGA (1280 x 800) screens in their medium range models (6Zi) back in 2011. They had 10" screens with lower resolutions way before that. E.g. Wavepro 950 had a 10.4" LCD but only with VGA (640x480) resolution.

[EEVblog]

The Agilent 7000 series  had a 12.1" XGA (1024x768) screen around 2009.
LeCroy had 12.1" WXGA (1280 x 800) screens in their medium range models (6Zi) back in 2011. They had 10" screens with lower resolutions way before that. E.g. Wavepro 950 had a 10.4" LCD but only with VGA (640x480) resolution.

Yes, but I was really referring to lower end scopes.

[0xdeadbeef]

The Agilent 7000 series  had a 12.1" XGA (1024x768) screen around 2009.
LeCroy had 12.1" WXGA (1280 x 800) screens in their medium range models (6Zi) back in 2011. They had 10" screens with lower resolutions way before that. E.g. Wavepro 950 had a 10.4" LCD but only with VGA (640x480) resolution.

Yes, but I was really referring to lower end scopes.

To be fair, lower end (digital) scopes 15 years ago didn't even have LCD screens. E.g. the infamous Agilent 54600 series from around 2004 still had a 7" tube.

[jfedison741]

Has anyone else noticed the higher Keysight oscilloscope pricing recently? Maybe it's just my region but Keysight scope prices appear to be about 45% higher these days compared to June 2019 when Dave posted his excellent 1GHz scope comparison.

It looked hopeful that at least a 500MHz scope (new) from a first tier manufacturer could be had for under US$10k but I was not expecting a 45% price increase two years later for the same hardware. Anyone have a clue what's going on with the pricing? Or maybe it's just a simple matter of supply and demand?

[Fungus]

Anyone have a clue what's going on with the pricing? Or maybe it's just a simple matter of supply and demand?

The price of just about everything has gone up due to COVID.

[jfedison741]

The price of just about everything has gone up due to COVID.

Possibly. In that case, it would be great if we see a return to "normal" pricing once the pandemic ends.

[jfedison741]

To be fair, pricing for Tektronix Series 3 didn't change at all the last two years (except at 1GHz). But 500MHz still costs above US$10k. Not surprising now how pricing (Keysight 3000X, Tektronix 3 Series) are now almost perfectly aligned. I guess we have Tektronix to "thank".

[Fungus]

To be fair, pricing for Tektronix Series 3 didn't change at all the last two years (except at 1GHz).

Yeah, but Tek has profit margins to spare on all their stuff.

[utogaria]

To be fair, pricing for Tektronix Series 3 didn't change at all the last two years (except at 1GHz). But 500MHz still costs above US$10k. Not surprising now how pricing (Keysight 3000X, Tektronix 3 Series) are now almost perfectly aligned. I guess we have Tektronix to "thank".

According to the latest Tekronix campaign, you can get the MDO34 350MHz (upgraded to 500MHz for free) for 4770 euros.