EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds

[Electro Detective]

A very useful and cheap addition to a soldering setup would be a countdown timer as are used on bathroom fans.

They are mandatory in hot tubs and usually go up to a maximum of 60 or 90 minutes.

Its totally worth the inconvenience of turning a knob to reset the timer every hour or so if there is even the smallest chance you might suddenly have to go and do something and might forget that your iron is on.

 

I have my rig on a 10 amp 0.1s > 2 hour timer digital thingie, with a Bypass switch if I know I won't be moving from the work or test scene for any reason

If I do, I press the timer switch and walk away...

[Gary350z]

I have my rig on a 10 amp 0.1s > 2 hour timer digital thingie, with a Bypass switch if I know I won't be moving from the work or test scene for any reason

Just the soldering iron, or all the test equipment?

[Fungus]

Leaving out the primary side fuse could just represent a decision that fuses blown from otherwise harmless power surges are a problem.

Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.

[Mr. Scram]

Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.

The same may apply to this entire discussion.

[Fungus]

Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.

The same may apply to this entire discussion.

Maybe. This thread (and the video) was about the corporate-speak reply from Weller.

Then again, let's remember that Weller puts fuses in their more expensive gear. I don't see anybody asking to have them removed so they can save $0.50 on the purchase price.
.

[madires]

Just going to put it out there as nobody else has: MTBF.

Another term which product marketing gets wrong all the time. In case you don't know: MTBF = MTTF + MTTR

MTBF: Mean Time Between Failure
MTTF: Mean Time To Failure
MTTR: Mean Time To Repair

A large MTBF doesn't imply a large MTTF, it could also mean an extremely high MTTR.

[Wolfgang]

Leaving out the primary side fuse could just represent a decision that fuses blown from otherwise harmless power surges are a problem.

Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.

The only question is how so many other brands got around this problem so elegantly despite having a fuse in it. 

[MrMobodies]

I really enjoyed the hilarious Microchip videos they made in response to Dave's review of the PICkit3 (#39 ) and its sequel. Maybe Weller could ...

EEVblog #39 - Microchip PICkit 3 Programmer/Debugger Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjfIS65mwn8#t=8m27s

"I don't think we'll ever get it back, why? Some dickhead manager at Microchip who actually, you know, who managed the projected on this thing and made those decisions would never admit they're wrong and never admit that MpLab sucks if you just want to program a chip, so really we will never see it, that dickhead is probably going to get promoted too."

They removed the fuses to save money and promoted themselves to double digit growth.

Here's a version for Weller:

"I don't think we'll ever get the fuse back, why? Some dickhead manager at Weller who actually, you know, who managed the projected on this thing and made those decisions would never admit they're wrong and never admit that removing the primary fuse sucks if you don't want some random unprotected mains fireball in your lab, there is only one place it belongs is the trash, that dickhead is probably going to get promoted too."

With Weller it'll be:

Mean Time Before Fire.

[floobydust]

What do people think Weller's corporate response should have been?  It does need an update... 

Last time I went through something similar to this, it was an all day meeting with the CEO, exec's and a team of lawyers advising what to do. The discussion was strictly about weighing liability and costs. Quite sad actually.

The product line I was involved in could do a lot more damage than a soldering station transformer burning up.

Even if engineering could find a fix, it would take many weeks to change the product, go through approvals again, roll that out to market. Backtracking model numbers and how many are already out there that are affected, the numbers could be very high.

Then, the decision was made to immediately issue a recall notice- as a corporation having knowledge of a product's unsafe aspect and not doing anything about it leaves them wide open to litigation. That got the exec's off their arse.

[Electro Detective]

You're asking for data showing that fuses work?

Yes...  Data that shows that in this case, with the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America, would always protect the transformer and not allow any smoke to escape when powered from 220-250 volts 50 Hz.

I accept the challenge 

to calculate and test a working fuse type and value under those conditions,
if Weller supplies me with a FREE unit (or three) to keep,

and forks out some serious cash for my R+D work,

 to save them time, money, reputation and face

Primary and Secondary fusing btw, with simple user swapout and generic fuse replacement,


...no half baked solutions from me   


Edit: the 'Data' will be posted here at EEVblog    exclusively

...once the deal is done and I've been paid 

 

[Wolfgang]

Just going to put it out there as nobody else has: MTBF.

Another term which product marketing gets wrong all the time. In case you don't know: MTBF = MTTF + MTTR

MTBF: Mean Time Between Failure
MTTF: Mean Time To Failure
MTTR: Mean Time To Repair

A large MTBF doesn't imply a large MTTF, it could also mean an extremely high MTTR.

... some more important MTT something values:

MTTX: Mean time to xplode
MTTD: Mean time to dump product
MTTSF: Mean time to set something on fire
MTTSC: Mean time to switch to *competitor* product.

Guess the MTT something values for the Weller product without a fuse. 

[fsr]

I think that the most clean way to go out of this mess for Weller would be to say that there was a mistake in production, that resulted in the fuse to be omitted, and that they're going to receive the faulty models for recall, and just get some people to solder the goddamn fuse directly to to the transformer's post. Of course, after testing to make sure that the fuse will not prematurely blow, as that would be a pain in the ass to replace.

Of course, that would had to be done in the response to Dave, now it's clear that they did that on purpose, for sheer greed. Still, they need to say "sorry, we made a stupid decision" and recall to solder the fuse there.

[Fungus]

What do people think Weller's corporate response should have been?

How about: "Thanks for pointing this out, it was a management oversight and we're updating our policies. We're also going to add a fuse and a large "110V only" warning label to this model" (and all other models that don't already have them)."


This is a company that happily spends hundreds of thousands a year just on trade shows, etc.

The free publicity Dave could have given them with a positive followup video would easily pay for a few fuses and sticky labels.

[AmmoJammo]

There's actually a solution that doesn't require fitting a fuse, and would actually reduce the bom cost!

Hard wire the mains leads...

[floobydust]

But wait- even on 110VAC ("normal operation") there is still a hazard. That's the issue still.
A sticker ain't gonna fix this debacle

[james_s]

I don't even think the mains voltage is an issue, how many people with 240V sockets on their bench have 120V equipment? That's pretty much a non-issue in the real world. Don't plug equipment into double its rated supply voltage.

The part that does concern me to some degree is what if a short occurs in one of the windings? I've had transformers short internally before and a fuse on the primary is good to have in that situation.

[Electro Detective]

What do people think Weller's corporate response should have been?

How about: "Thanks for pointing this out, it was a management oversight and we're updating our policies.
We're also going to add a fuse and a large "110V only" warning label to this model" (and all other models that don't already have them)."


This is a company that happily spends hundreds of thousands a year just on trade shows, etc.

The free publicity Dave could have given them with a positive followup video would easily pay for a few fuses and sticky labels.

Great advice   

if Weller were interested in some FREE damage control suggestions that work   

It's 2018 ffs, well what's left of it, they need to buy a clue... 


EDIT and addendum:
"We're also going to SEND OUT FOR FREE a fuse kit and a large "110V only" warning label to all owners of this model (and all other models that don't already have them)"
Just coz we value our customers
after blab king Electro Detective does all the R+D for us on the cheap

[Fungus]

I don't even think the mains voltage is an issue, how many people with 240V sockets on their bench have 120V equipment? That's pretty much a non-issue in the real world.

How many people here have seen equipment burnt out due to voltage surges on the mains supply?

(raises hand)

[Fungus]

It's 2018 ffs, well what's left of it, they need to buy a clue... 

The guy who wrote that letter should be fired. There's no way he should be head of marketing.

[timelessbeing]

I don't even think the mains voltage is an issue, how many people with 240V sockets on their bench have 120V equipment? That's pretty much a non-issue in the real world.

How many people here have seen equipment burnt out due to voltage surges on the mains supply?

(raises hand)

Not once in my life. And nobody around me.

[EEVblog]

For the soldering station they may assume that it is used under supervision only, as it would be a fire danger anyway of used unattended. So legally they may get away with not have a fuse.

I have absolutely no doubt that Weller are covered legally.
If it's anything like Australia they will have professional product liability cover that protects them if someone sues. All they have to show to defend that is show that the unit meets the various approvals.
A really really keen prosecuting lawyer could hassle them for not using "best industry practice", and could maybe try to show they removed it deliberately etc, but ultimately the third party test standard would win the day I think.
But still it's really silly stuff from Weller - You design countless products with a fuse as per safe industry practice and then very deliberately design out a protective device in a few of your low end products. Crazy. I do not understand to mindset at the company to do this.

[EEVblog]

I don't even think the mains voltage is an issue, how many people with 240V sockets on their bench have 120V equipment? That's pretty much a non-issue in the real world.

How many people here have seen equipment burnt out due to voltage surges on the mains supply?

I don't know what caused it, but I've seen primary windings fail, but not melt and progressively break down and burn like this one, not under normal use anyway.
But again, in a product which uses a universal voltage IEC connector, no voltage label on the back (bottom in this case), and your other products having one, there is no excuse for it.

[madires]

But still it's really silly stuff from Weller - You design countless products with a fuse as per safe industry practice and then very deliberately design out a protective device in a few of your low end products. Crazy. I do not understand to mindset at the company to do this.

It's about how the product is perceived by the customer. Product marketing has to create value gaps between the different product families to justify the different prices. So a simple fuse becomes a state-of-the-art safety device for professional soldering stations with a perceived value of US$50. The only problem is that it doesn't work with EEs because we see a simple fuse as best current practice and know that the IEC snap-in socket with integrated fuse holder is just 50 cents more.

[SeanB]

Having a large number of small 110VAC mains transformers around, decided to try one out on 230VAC. Connected it up, and turned on the power. Took nearly 4 minutes for it to fail with a small pop and a flash as the wire blew out.

German made transformer, made around 1982. Got hot, but no smoke, no flames and only the pop as it went out. Strangely enough the board was still working at double the input voltage.

[Mr. Scram]

It's about how the product is perceived by the customer. Product marketing has to create value gaps between the different product families to justify the different prices. So a simple fuse becomes a state-of-the-art safety device for professional soldering stations with a perceived value of US$50. The only problem is that it doesn't work with EEs because we see a simple fuse as best current practice and know that the IEC snap-in socket with integrated fuse holder is just 50 cents more.

Or it could be that they worked out that the fuse isn't making a large difference, so they left it out. An engineer does for a penny what a fool does for a dollar and in the bottom end of the market every penny counts. Many people here perceive a problem, but it has so far not really been demonstrated. SeanB's experiment shows it may not be as straightforward as it seems.