EEVblog #1099- BattBump - Dumbest Kickstarter Ever!

[Bud]

You have been deliberately antagonising me at every available opportunity for years.

I must say I noticed that too.

[X]

SLA is not that cheap - it's possible to get lithium for cheaper. Conventional deep cycle is still cheaper (initially), but isn't exactly good for carrying around.

Probably drifting slightly off-topic (though we're actually talking batteries here so it's all good), but assuming this statement isn't a joke, what lithium chemistry is cheaper than SLA for the same capacity?
LiFePO4 comes in mind here, and it's still several times more expensive for the same capacity. I have noticed that they're a lot lighter though and have a flatter discharge curve which suddenly drops off as the used capacity goes close to 100%.
LiFePO4 would be good for a UPS as most of the capacity can be used, and would probably save the precious shelf from bending like a banana since the battery bank wouldn't weigh 50kg.

I think the best way to go about it would be to start with a portable USB charger design and add a little Bluetooth chip to enable it to mine Battcoins.

Not sure if Bluetooth would be the answer since there doesn't seem to be any mention of it being used for BattBump in the first place. Perhaps it would be best to use a custom ASIC miner connected to a huge bank of smartphones with magic BattBump app technology, or some clever software on a micro with gargantuan induction coils.

[ebastler]

Has anybody told our heroine that the BattBump app will work if you just take out the "bump" part and use a $2 piece of wire instead?

Nah, that would be totally uncool.
Triggers memories of car drivers who managed to run down their batteries, and now need someone with jumper cables to help them out. Which, actually, is exactly the situation those phone users are in...

[Bratster]

SLA is not that cheap - it's possible to get lithium for cheaper. Conventional deep cycle is still cheaper (initially), but isn't exactly good for carrying around.

Probably drifting slightly off-topic (though we're actually talking batteries here so it's all good), but assuming this statement isn't a joke, what lithium chemistry is cheaper than SLA for the same capacity?
LiFePO4 comes in mind here, and it's still several times more expensive for the same capacity. I have noticed that they're a lot lighter though and have a flatter discharge curve which suddenly drops off as the used capacity goes close to 100%.
LiFePO4 would be good for a UPS as most of the capacity can be used, and would probably save the precious shelf from bending like a banana since the battery bank wouldn't weigh 50kg.

I think the best way to go about it would be to start with a portable USB charger design and add a little Bluetooth chip to enable it to mine Battcoins.

Not sure if Bluetooth would be the answer since there doesn't seem to be any mention of it being used for BattBump in the first place. Perhaps it would be best to use a custom ASIC miner connected to a huge bank of smartphones with magic BattBump app technology, or some clever software on a micro with gargantuan induction coils.

Looking at just the initial upfront cost, I don't think anything is cheaper than your basic lead acid battery.

However as soon as you take into account lifetime and depth of discharge lithium becomes cheaper.

Or at least LiFePO4, that's the only one that I have looked into a little bit.

Sent from my Fi Moto x4 using Tapatalk

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Here's a cool idea for a KS #2 for Miss Cat: It just so happens that a cell phone's radio emits much moar powerrrr than NFC.

[Halcyon]

These videos are a total waste of your time and this one more than most was just nauseating to watch unfold.

It is not what I say about this video that you should find antagonising it is your lack of good judgement in making it in the first place. I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

I completely disagree wilfred. I think Dave's debunking videos are brilliant. Although they shine light on the charlatans who try to make money off gullible individuals, that's not the primary goal. Dave's videos are not just about calling out bullshit for what it is, it's about EDUCATION. If by watching one of the EEVblog debunking videos, someone actually learns something even if it's just to think critically, then that's a win for society. Even for those who don't buy into the bullshit, it's a great lesson in fundamental electronics and physics.

I know Dave is proud of where the EEVblog is today. He started in his garage and in a few short years has made it what it is. He's an industry and household name.

At the end of the day wilfred, you've made your point loud and clear, but if you don't like the content, simply don't watch it.

And Dave, keep doing what you love. Fuck the haters, those individuals are a total waste of your time.

[westfw]

So, TECHNICALLY speaking: how difficult would it be to make the wireless charging technology present in many modern phones bi-directional?There are similar coils in both charger and phone, right?(yeah, it'd take a lot more than a 'bump', and there's always "a cable would work better...")

[joeqsmith]

Dave I can assure you that if I retained some interest in helping you avoid dragging yourself and the EEVblog into the shit before this thread, I think you have drifted well beyond salvation now. I cannot believe you can look back on this bit of fun, as you've told me these debunking threads are, with any pride at all. What you need to look at is not the number of people who come out and agree with me, it is the number of people who openly disagree with me.

These videos are a total waste of your time and this one more than most was just nauseating to watch unfold.

It is not what I say about this video that you should find antagonising it is your lack of good judgement in making it in the first place. I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

I assume you feel it's a waste of my time to watch them as well but I find it a bit odd you feel the need to try and control it by posting such dribble.   Then again, it does seem to be a pattern with you.  What is is that you feel you bring to this site?   

Personally I enjoy the debunk videos for the most part, including this one.  I find them rather entertaining.  This is really the reason I started watching Dave's videos in the first place.   I plan to continue to watch and support them regardless.     

[StillTrying]

So, TECHNICALLY speaking: how difficult would it be to make the wireless charging technology present in many modern phones bi-directional?There are similar coils in both charger and phone, right?

I think the efficiency of a battery to battery charge would always be a very big problem, you'd be better off just swapping the SIMs, ...or something.

[NiHaoMike]

Probably drifting slightly off-topic (though we're actually talking batteries here so it's all good), but assuming this statement isn't a joke, what lithium chemistry is cheaper than SLA for the same capacity?
LiFePO4 comes in mind here, and it's still several times more expensive for the same capacity. I have noticed that they're a lot lighter though and have a flatter discharge curve which suddenly drops off as the used capacity goes close to 100%.
LiFePO4 would be good for a UPS as most of the capacity can be used, and would probably save the precious shelf from bending like a banana since the battery bank wouldn't weigh 50kg.

I have a LiFePO4 pack that is almost as cheap as conventional deep cycle lead acid. The key to note is that drop in modules that already have a BMS are quite expensive, but the cells are cheap as are BMS boards.

Nissan Leaf battery modules are also surprisingly competitive compared to SLA. The oddball chemistry makes it hard to find a BMS module for them, however.

Not sure if Bluetooth would be the answer since there doesn't seem to be any mention of it being used for BattBump in the first place. Perhaps it would be best to use a custom ASIC miner connected to a huge bank of smartphones with magic BattBump app technology, or some clever software on a micro with gargantuan induction coils.

I was thinking of the wired version that actually works well with existing technology. Bluetooth would make the most sense since basically all smartphones have it (unlike NFC) and avoids the issue with not all smartphones supporting data over USB when in fast charge mode.

Looking at just the initial upfront cost, I don't think anything is cheaper than your basic lead acid battery.

However as soon as you take into account lifetime and depth of discharge lithium becomes cheaper.

Or at least LiFePO4, that's the only one that I have looked into a little bit.

Note the difference between SLA and conventional lead acid. The former is a lot more expensive. The latter is indeed as cheap as batteries get (at least initially), but is not very well suited for carrying around.

[Fungus]

So, TECHNICALLY speaking: how difficult would it be to make the wireless charging technology present in many modern phones bi-directional?There are similar coils in both charger and phone, right?(yeah, it'd take a lot more than a 'bump', and there's always "a cable would work better...")

Not difficult to do...*

...but difficult to explain to people why their charge went down 20% but the other person's charge only went up 2%.


Edit: I mean it would require a small hardware mod, obviously. 

[X]

I have a LiFePO4 pack that is almost as cheap as conventional deep cycle lead acid. The key to note is that drop in modules that already have a BMS are quite expensive, but the cells are cheap as are BMS boards.

Nissan Leaf battery modules are also surprisingly competitive compared to SLA. The oddball chemistry makes it hard to find a BMS module for them, however.

Surely a micro, a couple of power MOSFETs, a few NTC/PTC thermistors (or other temp sensors), and a PCB (including manufacturing costs) can't be significantly more expensive than the pack itself? Perhaps it's all in the R&D?

I was thinking of the wired version that actually works well with existing technology. Bluetooth would make the most sense since basically all smartphones have it (unlike NFC) and avoids the issue with not all smartphones supporting data over USB when in fast charge mode.

Charging something over Bluetooth... there's something worthy of an Indiegogo campaign! Next campaign: "Don't you hate it when the microwave at work is busted or too dirty? Well with our new HeatBump app, you will be able to fry a burrito with the built-in WiFi chipset on your smartphone. But we need your help for developing this vital technology and bring it to the masses. Our target is $100,000. Challenges: finding a loophole in the inverse square law." 

Looking at just the initial upfront cost, I don't think anything is cheaper than your basic lead acid battery.

However as soon as you take into account lifetime and depth of discharge lithium becomes cheaper.

Or at least LiFePO4, that's the only one that I have looked into a little bit.

Note the difference between SLA and conventional lead acid. The former is a lot more expensive. The latter is indeed as cheap as batteries get (at least initially), but is not very well suited for carrying around.

It also tends to depend on the separator or electrolyte retention method used. For example, AGM will be more expensive than gel-cell, but AGM has better electrical characteristics (higher depth of discharge, lower loss over time, etc). A lot of alarms I've seen (including modular commercial installs) like to use a cheap 12V 7Ah gel-cell type. People get these replaced them once or twice every 2-3 years as a preventative measure anyway, so why try harder.

[NiHaoMike]

Surely a micro, a couple of power MOSFETs, a few NTC/PTC thermistors (or other temp sensors), and a PCB (including manufacturing costs) can't be significantly more expensive than the pack itself? Perhaps it's all in the R&D?

More like because the drop in modules are mostly used in commercial environments where cost is less of an issue. For example, construction companies will pay a big premium for batteries that weigh less.

Charging something over Bluetooth... there's something worthy of an Indiegogo campaign! Next campaign: "Don't you hate it when the microwave at work is busted or too dirty? Well with our new HeatBump app, you will be able to fry a burrito with the built-in WiFi chipset on your smartphone. But we need your help for developing this vital technology and bring it to the masses. Our target is $100,000. Challenges: finding a loophole in the inverse square law." 

USB for power and Bluetooth for communication. Back when I worked at Intel, the gym had some stationary bicycles that can charge devices plugged into the USB port, but the optional app to save the data connects over Bluetooth. The problem it solves is working properly with phones that cannot fast charge and communicate over USB at the same time, which is a very common problem.

[EEVblog]

So, TECHNICALLY speaking: how difficult would it be to make the wireless charging technology present in many modern phones bi-directional?

Without changing the actual phone design, impossible. i.e. it's not possible with any current phone that I am aware of.
If using Qi then the the phone would likely have to be thicker to accommodate the magnetics, or be very inefficient, take your pick.
NFC is harder and less efficient, and Sony own the patent it seems. Maybe a chipset exists for this?

In any case it's a stupid idea. No one is going to want to put two phones back to back to charge them at some piss-poor charging rate.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In any case it's a stupid idea. No one is going to want to put two phones back to back to charge them at some piss-poor charging rate.

...and with great losses: only 60..70% efficiency.

[Howardlong]

USB for power and Bluetooth for communication. Back when I worked at Intel, the gym had some stationary bicycles that can charge devices plugged into the USB port, but the optional app to save the data connects over Bluetooth. The problem it solves is working properly with phones that cannot fast charge and communicate over USB at the same time, which is a very common problem.

Is that not what USB Power Delivery is all about? By design, PD 1.0, which worked over USB A and B, supported signalling over Vbus to allow charging and USB communications. That never really took off, but PD 2.0 over USB C has.

[NiHaoMike]

Is that not what USB Power Delivery is all about? By design, PD 1.0, which worked over USB A and B, supported signalling over Vbus to allow charging and USB communications. That never really took off, but PD 2.0 over USB C has.

That was 6 years ago, long before USB-C. The bicycles themselves were most certainly not brand new at the time, and in fact at least the design predates the iPad because the Apple charge slot (separate from the USB socket) will accept an iPhone but not an iPad. I suspect they use supercapacitors because it only takes a few seconds of pedaling for the USB to turn on.

[tautech]

Rubbish.
Wilfred started the whole gender thing and you piled on in the very next post.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1099-battbump-dumbest-kickstarter-ever!/msg1643669/#msg1643669

MOD: Off-topic gender politics removed.

I don't know why the observation was so objectionable unless it was feared that the response would be more likely to confirm the point.

So I didn't make the post to antagonise you Dave and I certainly didn't make  it to fan the flames. I made it to alert those forum members who may have got caught up in the moment to reflect on their post and be moderate lest they say something they might later prefer to have said differently. Just as you sometimes claim these debunking and scam videos are justified if they can save even one person from falling victim, I too make my points in the hope someone will pause to reflect.

I reject that a single post I made in this thread was done with any intention to antagonise you Dave. Or any post I have ever made. I am certainly aware you are sensitive to criticisms I make, but that is not the same as making them with the intent to antagonise you. I humbly think I make well considered points as directly as I can. Whether they are well made is still open but I do try to cut through to the heart of the matter that I think is important. I don't believe I engage in personal attacks or become engaged in slanging matches. If what I say was just plain wrong then they should just fall to one side as the ravings of a lunatic.

Dave I can assure you that if I retained some interest in helping you avoid dragging yourself and the EEVblog into the shit before this thread, I think you have drifted well beyond salvation now. I cannot believe you can look back on this bit of fun, as you've told me these debunking threads are, with any pride at all. What you need to look at is not the number of people who come out and agree with me, it is the number of people who openly disagree with me.

These videos are a total waste of your time and this one more than most was just nauseating to watch unfold.

It is not what I say about this video that you should find antagonising it is your lack of good judgement in making it in the first place. I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

wilfred, it hasn't gone unnoticed by a few of us that you're sanitizing your post history.

We'd hope you'll continue to stick around and still offer a contribution to this forum.
So say I and I know there are others.

[Rasz]

reposting from crowdsourcing subforum battbump threat:

Samsung Wireless PowerShare on the Galaxy S10

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00082564/

you should all feel very stupid now!!1

 ... wait no, Samsung should First it was phones blowing up, then brilliant idea of $2000 foldable screens phone not exactly panning out https://qz.com/1598094/the-samsung-galaxy-folds-display-seems-to-have-problems/ with review units going blank/tearing apart, and now I learned they actually implemented BattBump!

[TERRA Operative]

That won't be using NFC for transferring the charging power, it would most likely have both parts of a wireless charging system integrated into the phone, so each phone can be both a charging dock and the receiving device, depending on how you set the charge direction.
NFC use would be limited to communications to define which phone is the charger and which is the chargee, along with whatever other settings and data is needed.

[Brumby]

That won't be using NFC for transferring the charging power, it would most likely have both parts of a wireless charging system integrated into the phone, so each phone can be both a charging dock and the receiving device, depending on how you set the charge direction.

Exactly this.

The stupidity of the BattBump campaign is that it purported to use hardware that was not capable of delivering the claimed function.

Samsung will have provided the hardware that can achieve this - so there is no "feeling stupid" over here.

[EEVblog]

That won't be using NFC for transferring the charging power, it would most likely have both parts of a wireless charging system integrated into the phone, so each phone can be both a charging dock and the receiving device, depending on how you set the charge direction.

Exactly this.
The stupidity of the BattBump campaign is that it purported to use hardware that was not capable of delivering the claimed function.
Samsung will have provided the hardware that can achieve this - so there is no "feeling stupid" over here.

Yes, and I've had many people contact me both public and private asking if I feel stupid now that this is a thing. Nope, because BattBump claimed demonstrably ridiculous things that could not and still do not work. They fully deserved to be called out for it.
The S10 uses the Qi standard to do the charging.

[Barny]

Whats the efficiency of this phone to phone Qi Charger including loading / draining losses?
10% ? 20%?
Wouldn't it be better to use a cable or a power bank?

[Fungus]

Whats the efficiency of this phone to phone Qi Charger including loading / draining losses?
10% ? 20%?
Wouldn't it be better to use a cable or a power bank?

Sure, if you have one handy.

Sometimes you don't and this is marketing-feature gold. The first time two hipsters see people passing charge to each each other I can garantee you won't be, "What's the efficiency?", you'll be more, "Why can't my iPhone do that?"

[nctnico]

Whats the efficiency of this phone to phone Qi Charger including loading / draining losses?
10% ? 20%?
Wouldn't it be better to use a cable or a power bank?

No. Wireless transfer is pretty efficient at short distances. I estimate the efficiency is at least over 80%.