EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station

[Towger]

that being said. The response of the iron is actually good. The hako reacts way too fast.
Here is the problem : Flux takes time to activate and it should be (almost) completely gone by the time you enter the liquid phase of the solder. Heat it too fast and not only will it evaporate too fast , it will spatter , flinging blobs of unactivated flux, and possibly tin , everywhere on the board.

Careful, the Metcal fanboys will be livid. Instant heat is their lord and savior 

This is confusing too fast with too much heat.  It is the same train of thought as 'turn up' the heat for larger/heaver jobs.  Turn it up to 11. 

[Towger]

Rossmann's video response and rant on the price if Made in USA Pace soldering equipment.

Note: The word Metcal is not mentioned.

https://youtu.be/kmq769_ed9w

[Psi]

You don't even have to pay $100 for a 951 clone.

These china soldering stations take the same T12 tips that the hakko 951 use. With heater and tip in one.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/138x88x38mm-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-EU-Plug-Temperature-180-435-Degrees-T12-Handle/32692999653.html

So you can get one for $38 and slap a genuine Hakko T12 tip on it.
but TBH the tip that comes with it is actually not that bad, so you don't even need to do that.
(It's a large chisel tip though, so no good for ultra small SMT, fine for 0805 though)

[Sjokolade]

Dave, did you throw away the small sponge pieces or did you follow Hakko's directions for the sponge ?

If you did not fit the small pieces your sponge won't be damp.


Edit:
After looking at the video again I see you did not lay the two small sponges in the tray, they are still attached to the main sponge 

[gearshredder]

that being said. The response of the iron is actually good. The hako reacts way too fast.
Here is the problem : Flux takes time to activate and it should be (almost) completely gone by the time you enter the liquid phase of the solder. Heat it too fast and not only will it evaporate too fast , it will spatter , flinging blobs of unactivated flux, and possibly tin , everywhere on the board.

Wouldn't the temperature be less on the metcal in order to do the same job? hehe.  Of course you only really have 3 main temperatures to pick from but you can limit the "reaction speed" by picking tip with less mass or further from the coil.

The cost on the new soldering equipment is outrageous. That's why I buy used like from ebay and repair if I need to. But of course like dave said, It's not feasible for someone starting out. This is also a hobby for me so it doesn't really matter in the end lol.

[TuxKey]

You don't even have to pay $100 for a 951 clone.

These china soldering stations take the same T12 tips that the hakko 951 use. With heater and tip in one.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/138x88x38mm-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-EU-Plug-Temperature-180-435-Degrees-T12-Handle/32692999653.html

So you can get one for $38 and slap a genuine Hakko T12 tip on it.
but TBH the tip that comes with it is actually not that bad, so you don't even need to do that.
(It's a large chisel tip though, so no good for ultra small SMT, fine for 0805 though)

looks to good to be true.. i'm afraid it will burn down my house...in theory one could by this unit an use a Hakko tip for it..
But still.... would be worth a test by his lordship mr.Jones
would consider shipping in to have a good technical review of this.. What do you say Dave

[TuxKey]

Hi guys,
i'm new to this forum and bin watching Dave's vids for a year or two now..
i'm a total noob when it comes to electronics, soldering and such things..i'm a IT nurd Linux/Unix sysadmin.
Currently taking sum time off..studding for my certs and all.

For a long time i wanted to get in to building my own mechanical keyboards and modding older boards.
i was all set to jump in and buy the FX-888D and the FR-301 bundle from batterfly.com for €375 did sum research watched tons of vids about both devices..

BUT THEN i saw "Louis Rossmann"  post his vid titled Soldering station technology & the lie of "SOLDERING PATRIOTISM"

So i decided to watch all vids i can get my hands on, read about both..i knew about the TS100.. Asked around downloaded the manual and found out it got hot after 40min of use. The user manual states:
 After continuous use up to 40 minutes, the handle surface temperature will reach 50°C~60°C.
Seems a bit toasty..

i read pretty much all the comments in this thread..
with my limited understanding this is what i understand..

direct tip heater station is what Louis was referring to.
Dave stated that these devices are more expensive so it's clear..

as mentioned by free_electron
Keep in mind that this is an entry level allround soldering iron.  More advanced stations actually know what tip is inserted ( the ones with the active tips where the heating element and sensor are inside the tip and thrown away at end-of-life ) and they adapt their response time appropriately.


So my question is two fold.

1) @dave would you consider reviewing this?
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/110v-220V-digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-T12-Handle/32345223517.html?spm=a2g0z.search0104.3.112.30e9607fZtqf7g&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10696_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10301_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_2,ppcSwitch_3&algo_expid=ef2a252e-684e-4e91-af7f-bbbff4c0f478-15&algo_pvid=ef2a252e-684e-4e91-af7f-bbbff4c0f478&priceBeautifyAB=0


2) as a noob soldering keyboards and later getting in the repairing electronics learning everything about electronics is it worth
buying the more expensive FX-951 and buying the de-soldering gun FR-301 or should i just go with the FX-888D ?
Please help..
is the newer tech really that much better???

Someone even suggested i look at the FM-204 with the FM-2027-3 ..that's a €1022 bundle !!!! OMG that's a bit on the high side of things..

My head is spinning with info.

[Bud]

Rossman's advice is very short-sighted and only makes sense to hobbycist and mom/pop shops like his. And to me it is not about patriotism, which i myself do not give a dime for, but practicality, less headache during operation and money saving long term. It is one thing if you pull your iron out here and there and if the tip fails it is ok you can wait two weeks for another one arriving from Banggood, and it is totally different when you are on schedule to deliver products to your customers. You quickly realise that you do not want additional problems generated by your shitty tools and to have no manufacturers support. Did Rossman performed failure analysis for either the base stations or tips? Guess not because cheap was everything he was able to see.

[madires]

Another point missed in the old tech vs. new tech discussion is that there are old tech soldering stations playing in the same professional league like the new tech ones, e.g. the ERSA i-CON with the i-Tool iron. Sadly they are ignored in most comparisons/shootouts.

[free_electron]

Rossmann's video response and rant on the price if Made in USA Pace soldering equipment.

Note: The word Metcal is not mentioned.

https://youtu.be/kmq769_ed9w

nonsense ... the statement "jbc was first with heaters in tips in the 2000's" is blatantly false. Weller had that with their microtouch stations long before that ! i had my first microtouch in 1992 ...

[Monkeh]

Don't forget Metcal in the 80s and early 90s..

[ebastler]

Rossmann's video response and rant on the price if Made in USA Pace soldering equipment.
Note: The word Metcal is not mentioned.

Could someone please remind Louis Rossmann that it is entirely acceptable to cut a video?! 

I lasted through nearly 5 minutes of him switching windows, scrolling around the screen, wagging his mouse pointer, and trying to drag up other videos while I stared at a black screen. But this thing goes on for 30 minutes total! Unwatchable, and an imposition on the viewer.

Louis, if you read this: You can do better than that! (And you should, really.)

[Monkeh]

It was a livestream.

[ebastler]

It was a livestream.

And it is painful to watch. 
I am sure it was just as painful when it was streamed live.

I just can't be bothered wasting my time on this -- especially given the total lack of interesting, new information in that video. Come on, the only "data" he shows in 30 minutes are from a JBC ad? (And he acknowledges that there is probably some marketing spin on that one, and then continues to treat it as gospel?!) Thanks, but no thanks.

[timelessbeing]

Same here. I don't have hours to spare to watch his videos.

[rrinker]

 While it's rather obvious the 'modern' style will recover faster, I've had no complaints with my 'old style' Xytronic, which I originally purchased for my other hobby, not just electronics. That being, model railroading - for soldering rail and building my own turnouts (switches). If nickel silver rail isn't a huge heat sink I don't know what is, and I've never had any issues with the temp holding up to make repeated joints, sometimes soldering two rails together, sometimes soldering rails to cut pieces of copper clad board used as ties.
 As Dave said, it may make sense for more of a production environment, but for hobbyist use, even on things relatively heavy like the model train rail, I don't see any issues. And of course I've used it for electronics as well, no problems assembling any number of boards or doing point to point circuits. The model I have is only rated at 45 watts, too.
 My only regret is not buying one of these things 30 years ago. I used to have an array of traditional irons, from 15 watt to 60 watt, to handle a range of jobs. This one replaced them all, except the heavy duty gun (and torch for plumbing). Despite the basic equipment I used back in the day, I never fried a component - of course I always socketed any IC.

[Cliff Matthews]

Tossing in a monkey-wrench: Funny German reworks 245w JBC mega-tip to fit the TS-100 (gifted to him by Frankie no less..)

[KL27x]

Rossman's advice is very short-sighted and only makes sense to hobbycist and mom/pop shops like his... You quickly realise that you do not want additional problems generated by your shitty tools and to have no manufacturers support. Did Rossman performed failure analysis for either the base stations or tips? Guess not because cheap was everything he was able to see.

A lot of members are also on T12 clone fans, so I don't think his opinion is terribly unpopular. But...

For a guy claiming "I'll 100% go for the cheap rip-off of a better/newer technology"
1. He uses genuine Hakko 951. This is not a knockoff
2. The iron he used before the 951, IIRC, was a cheap knockoff of 936.

His experience would appear to be comparing the genuine Hakko 951 as representative of the "newer technology" vs a $30.00 Chinese import to represent the "old school" ceramic heater irons. This is exactly the opposite of what he advocates. Maybe he assumes some performance differences as being attributable to the "new technology" where they may really be due to Hakko quality. And similarly, you can't use a random Chinese 936 clone and expect it to be representative to a Hakko 888. They are not the same product. This is perhaps an even bigger assumption. The performance of a ceramic heater 936 style of iron depends heavily on the construction and materials in the handpiece.

3. When he "reviewed" a 951 knockoff... And this was way back when TS100 and T12 clones weren't everywhere and I was actually interested in hearing about hands-on impression and performance comparisons... Well.. the short takeaway I recall was he attempted to solder a large SMD connector with the knockoff using a fine point tip (which even he said while doing it, it was the wrong tip for the job); then the genuine station he used an appropriate 3mm bevel tip, which aside from the spatula is essentially the biggest, baddest tip you can put in a 951. No surprise, the proper tip worked way better. Then he found a penis-shaped soldering joint in the clone and proclaimed it was a POS. This was very disappointing and a total waste of time. I'm still angry I watched/skipped through pretty much all of that video looking for actual performance data and some kind of pertinent if not objective opinion.

[TheAmmoniacal]

Louis Rossmann's opinion is based on his review of a fake FX-951:



He would pick this over any new "old technology" for what he is doing.

[KL27x]

^ Are you defending him?
This IS the "review/comparison" I was talking about.

If you can provide a timestamp which suggests he did anything but compare markings/housings, critique the quality of solder joints, do a single comparison with polar opposite tip types, and repeatedly call this knockoff crap with nothing to back that up, I will be glad to have it. I remember scouring through this vid in disbelief that this was the entirety of the substance. In addition to the lack of information in the video, I also did not get the impression that he tried it out or kicked the tires beyond what was shown here. You could easily show why it's crap if it is so. Maybe scope the power output waveform. Show the problems with response algorithm. Maybe put a thermocouple on it. Check that the psu has enough output relative to the genuine. Or... use it for awhile?

He would pick this over any new "old technology"

And his experience with any of this "new old technology" is what, exactly? I watched several of his early vids, and I'm pretty sure he used a cheap 936 knockoff before upgrading to the 951. Perhaps he is over-generalizing his experience with this cheap Chinese knockoff to the top hakko, weller, ersa, and pace irons which use passive tips? In this vid, he does nothing but bash the knockoff with no objective reasoning other than penis-shaped soldering joints and a connector that doesn't snap-fit as nicely. And now he says this POS he has hardly used is obviously better than an Ersa Pico or 888 or Weller 1010 which he has maybe never used?

[ebastler]

I remember scouring through this vid in disbelief that this was the entirety of the substance. In addition to the lack of information in the video, I also did not get the impression that he tried it out or kicked the tires beyond what was shown here.

I find that the signal/noise ratio of Rossman's live streams is generally extremely poor. I don't think he is doing himself a favor with these -- it is a rapid way to generate "content", but also a great way to damage his reputation.

Personally, I don't watch his stuff any more, because I feel it is a waste of time.

[Nusa]

^ Are you defending him?
This IS the "review/comparison" I was talking about.

If you can provide a timestamp which suggests he did anything but compare markings/housings, critique the quality of solder joints, do a single comparison with polar opposite tip types, and repeatedly call this knockoff crap with nothing to back that up, I will be glad to have it. I remember scouring through this vid in disbelief that this was the entirety of the substance. In addition to the lack of information in the video, I also did not get the impression that he tried it out or kicked the tires beyond what was shown here. You could easily show why it's crap if it is so. Maybe scope the power output waveform. Show the problems with response algorithm. Maybe put a thermocouple on it. Check that the psu has enough output relative to the genuine. Or... use it for awhile?

He would pick this over any new "old technology"

And his experience with any of this "new old technology" is what, exactly? I watched several of his early vids, and I'm pretty sure he used a cheap 936 knockoff before upgrading to the 951. Perhaps he is over-generalizing his experience with this cheap Chinese knockoff to the top hakko, weller, ersa, and pace irons which use passive tips? In this vid, he does nothing but bash the knockoff with no objective reasoning other than penis-shaped soldering joints and a connector that doesn't snap-fit as nicely. And now he says this POS he has hardly used is obviously better than an Ersa Pico or 888 or Weller 1010 which he has maybe never used?

I'm not going to rewatch to hunt down timestamps for you, but you're overdoing the rant for something you actually admit you only skimmed through rather than watched.
a) So what about whatever history he has with 936 type irons? Most of us have that kind of history. They STILL work well enough for hobbyists, but virtually everyone who's tried the better technology prefers it. What's your point?
b) Yes, the tip he used initially was the wrong tip for the job, and he said as much. Later, he used one of his genuine tips in the knockoff iron and deemed the iron reasonably powerful and the performance acceptable.
c) He spent some time ripping Hakko when talking about the genuine irons user interface. They deserved that, in my opinion.
d) There were differences in the knockoff. Most obviously, the auto-cooldown feature was missing entirely, which means it's an always on iron. The handle design was also different, not even close enough to be called a knockoff. The cradle was crappy with a sponge instead of brass wire.
e) He did a teardown at the end. The soldering quality of the pcb construction really did suck. Besides that penis-blob, he knocked off some solderballs. And as the title picture shows, the LED leads were left unclipped, which is somewhat less than professional.
f) How much have you donated to Louis for making videos? I suspect you got more value than you paid, no matter how much you hated it.

[KL27x]

I'm not going to rewatch to hunt down timestamps for you, but you're overdoing the rant for something you actually admit you only skimmed through rather than watched.

Scoured more than skimmed. Like after watching it, in it's entirety, I had to go back to make sure I didn't miss whatever it was that led him to act like the iron could solder for shit. Don't need timestamps for any of that. I remember all that fluff.

None of that stuff should make one believe the iron can't solder for shit given the use of the same, genuine tips. Yet that is the impression he throws off throughout the video.

Rant? Unclipped leads are why an expert knows the thing can't solder for shit before he even tests it objectively. Got it.

Later, he used one of his genuine tips in the knockoff iron and deemed the iron reasonably powerful and the performance acceptable.

"Reasonably" powerful and "acceptable." What a waste of breath. If it is less powerful or less responsive than the genuine, as this clearly implies, it should be easy to demonstrate. I expected a half hour video to show each station doing the same job using the same genuine tips for at least a few seconds of that ghastly video, maybe? Even better, he could have soldered a wire to the plus and minus traces of each station and scoped the output while touching (the same tip, duh, and set and verified to be set to the same temp) to a wet sponge or something. 3 minutes of that would be worth more than his entire video "comparison." (If you call what I do a rant, you can't even call this a comparison or review; this video is the rant). He doesn't even deserve to offer an opinion on relative soldering performance based on anything he did in this entire video.

Yes, the tip he used initially was the wrong tip for the job, and he said as much.

This isn't the problem. He used the shitty tip on the knockoff and the polar opposite tip on the genuine in his only side-by-side comparison test.* Can someone really be oblivious enough to do this on accident and not take 10 minutes to redo this test? Maybe he is so smart he knows his core audience wants to see a beat down and rant. Maybe his core audience is really that... uh... there for this entertainment vs insight. And his own acknowledgement of the tip difference didn't stop him from implying the knockoff couldn't solder for shit.

But now this station that can't solder for shit is amazing. Compared to $100+ dollar stations. Because it has knockoff elf technology. Comparing this cartridge thing to outdated BS technology that is in use in high end business everywhere, we don't need to test how it works. We don't care about unclipped leads or sleep or other features. But when comparing the real 951 to the knockoff, somehow all these little nitpicks means the knockoff can't solder for shit.

*This elf technology is so much better, you can just stick a BR tip on there and drag solder big connectors, right? That's the point? He didn't even attempt it with the genuine station; he put the biggest tip on it.

[Cliff Matthews]

FWIW, Pace posted some solder tip info in manufacturing. Handy facts one wouldn't think of.. (some sponges contain sulfur?)

[LektroiD]

I just bought the Weller WE1010, but I think I have a faulty unit, as the backlight shown on all their marketing ads is not working, and I can't find a way to switch it on. I've sent the following message to Weller about the issue... I'll post up any further correspondence from them...

Hi, I just purchased a Weller WE1010, but I can't seem to activate the backlight shown in all your marketing ads. Without the backlight working, it's really hard to see the display from most angles at my bench. I cannot find how to activate the backlight in the manual. Please advise how to switch it on? or have I got a faulty unit?