EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station

[madires]

I Live in The Netherlands, we have 230V AC Mains. The original Hakko FX888D costs € 133 here (= $163 US, $208 AU). Looks like the Weller WE1010 is going to costs € 170 over here.

Weller is known to be overpriced. A German shop lists the WE1010 for € 169.95.

[jancumps]

What, no teardown? I thought taking it apart was rule #1 at EEVblog?

I would be particularly amused if the WE1010 has unused pads/inputs for setpoint selection that they deliberately didn't use to avoid competing with their better models. Even if it doesn't I can see this being a great hacking opportunity, since the display hardware is clearly present.

Watch the video again. The front panel pcb is shown.

[tszaboo]

Absolute nonsense, ability to change temperature is a must for effective work. And not in a ducky way like that Hakko, has to be either one button preset press or a dial.

One simple question: Why?
Maybe, because the iron is not up to the task, eg.: keeping it's temperature above the melting point?

All I'm seeing here is ancient designs with terrible performance and inflated price. [...] I was quite suprized, when I first tried a Metcal station.

Hmm... Metcal may be good (I have not had the opportunity to try one yet), but I can't see that their pricing policy is much different from the competition. If anything, they seem to be more expensive for comparable specs?

Seriously, forget about watt ratings and temperature settings.

If a soldering station had perfect regulation of the (fixed) temperature, maybe you wouldn't need to change temperature that often. You will still have to change it sometimes, for different jobs; but I understand that the Metcals offer "self-regulating" tips as Weller did in the old days.

But why would watt rating not matter?! Seems that the capabiity to supply enough power is one prerequisite for stable temperature regulation, besides a good closed-loop control?

I'm not happy with it's pricing, the entry point seems to be 200 EUR, which is 50 EUR more than the Weller. That is the PS900, I've used the MX5000. As I understand they use the same cartridges.

Watt rating doesn't matter, you saw it in the video. The weller had higher rating yet slower heatup, and it dipped more when cooled down by water.
Yes, a metcal doesnt have any setting, as it works with the Curie point of the tip. And the heating element and the tip is integrated, so your handle basically never wears out, as it is just a fancy connector. I was also skeptical at first.

[ebastler]

Watt rating doesn't matter, you saw it in the video. The weller had higher rating yet slower heatup, and it dipped more when cooled down by water.

What kind of conclusion is that?! "The quality of temperature control is not determined by the Watt rating alone" would be a viable statement. "Watt rating doesn't matter" is not.

This is an engineering forum. Drawing the right conclusions from observations or measurements, and then relaying those conclusions correctly, helps your credibility. 

[tszaboo]

Watt rating doesn't matter, you saw it in the video. The weller had higher rating yet slower heatup, and it dipped more when cooled down by water.

What kind of conclusion is that?! "The quality of temperature control is not determined by the Watt rating alone" would be a viable statement. "Watt rating doesn't matter" is not.

This is an engineering forum. Drawing the right conclusions from observations or measurements, and then relaying those conclusions correctly, helps your credibility. 

It is Saturday. I had enough precise engineering for this week, entschuldigung.
Here is a 40W metcal soldering a nut to a bolt for remorse. Not my video.

[ebastler]

It is Saturday. I had enough precise engineering for this week, entschuldigung.
Here is a 40W metcal soldering a nut to a bolt for remorse. Not my video.

Entschuldigung accepted.

The screw-to-nut soldering video is nice. But hey, for those extreme situations with a large-capacity heat sink, I would argue that the performance actually becomes critically dependent on the Watt rating! Unless the manufacturerer got their closed-loop temperature control totally wrong, the iron will notice the need to supply heat, and more heat. Optimization of the control loop parameters shouldn't matter that much. Hence the time it takes to get back to soldering temperature will depend nearly entirely on the available electrical power (and on the thermal resistance between the heater and the tip).

[Monkeh]

I'm not happy with it's pricing, the entry point seems to be 200 EUR, which is 50 EUR more than the Weller. That is the PS900, I've used the MX5000. As I understand they use the same cartridges.

Nope. The MX5000 (and MX500, and the old PS2E, etc etc) are 13.56MHz units. The PS and MFR units are 400kHz. They use different handpieces and tips, and the cheapest tip option uses a separate heater coil.

(and on the thermal resistance between the heater and the tip).

.. and that's the key. A Metcal with a 40W supply will deliver.. well, not 40W, as not all tips even take full power, but it will deliver it straight into the body of the tip (as will any more conventional, but still integrated heater, system). Meanwhile, these things are delivering it into a nice jacket of air between heater and tip, and then into a massive amount of exposed metal surface area around that to act as a heatsink.

[gearshredder]

+1 for Metcal. Just bought another mx-500. I'm waiting for a mx-5000 to show up for a good price.

There needs to be a heater integrated tip station review.

[boffin]

It is Saturday. I had enough precise engineering for this week, entschuldigung.
Here is a 40W metcal soldering a nut to a bolt for remorse. Not my video.

Entschuldigung accepted.

The screw-to-nut soldering video is nice. But hey, for those extreme situations with a large-capacity heat sink, I would argue that the performance actually becomes critically dependent on the Watt rating! Unless the manufacturerer got their closed-loop temperature control totally wrong, the iron will notice the need to supply heat, and more heat. Optimization of the control loop parameters shouldn't matter that much. Hence the time it takes to get back to soldering temperature will depend nearly entirely on the available electrical power (and on the thermal resistance between the heater and the tip).

And doing that kind of joint is exactly why you own one of those 140W soldering guns.  Not delicate, but for that sort of thing its invaluable.

[Monkeh]

It is Saturday. I had enough precise engineering for this week, entschuldigung.
Here is a 40W metcal soldering a nut to a bolt for remorse. Not my video.

Entschuldigung accepted.

The screw-to-nut soldering video is nice. But hey, for those extreme situations with a large-capacity heat sink, I would argue that the performance actually becomes critically dependent on the Watt rating! Unless the manufacturerer got their closed-loop temperature control totally wrong, the iron will notice the need to supply heat, and more heat. Optimization of the control loop parameters shouldn't matter that much. Hence the time it takes to get back to soldering temperature will depend nearly entirely on the available electrical power (and on the thermal resistance between the heater and the tip).

And doing that kind of joint is exactly why you own one of those 140W soldering guns.  Not delicate, but for that sort of thing its invaluable.

Yes, one of those might be able to keep up with a modern 40-60W system.

[djacobow]

So, the WE1010 does not seem like a meaningful upgrade over my WESD51. So, if I'm ready for a better iron and I'm willing to go up to, say $500, what's the best iron I can get at that price?

[NiHaoMike]

+1 for Metcal. Just bought another mx-500. I'm waiting for a mx-5000 to show up for a good price.

There needs to be a heater integrated tip station review.

I would like to see how the TS100 compares. I saw a few reviews that say it compares quite well to the cheaper soldering stations but it would be interesting to see if it would be a good budget alternative to Metcal.

And doing that kind of joint is exactly why you own one of those 140W soldering guns.  Not delicate, but for that sort of thing its invaluable.

I got a 260W Weller for assembling battery packs. Main downside is that it's heavy. I wonder when they'll come out with one that uses a high frequency inverter to cut down on weight and while they're at it, make it battery powered.

[gearshredder]

^I was thinking about buying a TS100. If dave doesn't do it I'll make the video! lol. I kinda want that MX-5000 first though. 80w of RF power!

[Terry01]

I got the FX-888 a few weeks ago and think it's a great wee iron! I would recommend it to anyone. In saying that I had the Katsu 852D before that which is a Hakko clone, I would recommend that too!    Honestly!

For anyone using the T12 Hakko clone iron get a genuine Hakko tip in your favourite flavour and see how much it improves the clone. I did and it's awesome! Well worth the extra £££

I get the problem with the 2 button control thing on the FX-888, I was a bit confused at 1st myself. After about 10 seconds I got it and have been happy operating it ever since.
Unless you have to change temp every 30 seconds the fact it takes about 5 seconds to change temp it's not a problem. Lets face it if you were having to change temp every 30 seconds with even a mind controlled temp setting it would get annoying?? It's not bad at all.
I haven't used a Weller so can't compare 1 way or the other. I just know the Hakko is a decent iron for hobby use. 

[Deridex]

Sadly i'm not realy impressed by both solderingstations. I will stay with my Ersa I-Con-Pico

[4CX35000]

I got the FX-888 a few weeks ago and think it's a great wee iron! I would recommend it to anyone. In saying that I had the Katsu 852D before that which is a Hakko clone, I would recommend that too!    Honestly!

For anyone using the T12 Hakko clone iron get a genuine Hakko tip in your favourite flavour and see how much it improves the clone. I did and it's awesome! Well worth the extra £££

With the Katsu clone and the Hakko it is possible to put a small piece of copper around the iron element and slip on the fake tip's. It improves the performance of the fake tips, but the station will need recalibrating.

At work I have two irons; a Hakko FX-888D which is my daily work horse with loads of spare bits (Most of them fake), which I use for tinning leads, connectors and so on. For the more delicate component, SMD and other PCB work I have a JBC CD-2BE which I have a small selection of different bits.

For my home use I have a Katsu and that is adequate for home use and if I need to do something fairly tasking, I can take any circuit board into work and use the Hakko or JBC.

If I didn't have access to the equipment I have at work, then I would opt for the Hakko FX-888D. It really comes down to budget and requirements, if your a student then the Katsu will be fine, but for hobbyist and pensioner then the Hakko is a good buy.

[timelessbeing]

I have the analog FX-888 and when seeing this video I am really happy I have the analog one.

Me too. That button interface looks maddening. And the analog one was cheaper too.

[tszaboo]

I'm not happy with it's pricing, the entry point seems to be 200 EUR, which is 50 EUR more than the Weller. That is the PS900, I've used the MX5000. As I understand they use the same cartridges.

Nope. The MX5000 (and MX500, and the old PS2E, etc etc) are 13.56MHz units. The PS and MFR units are 400kHz. They use different handpieces and tips, and the cheapest tip option uses a separate heater coil.

Thanks for the clarification.
Is there a big difference in their performance?

[Monkeh]

I'm not happy with it's pricing, the entry point seems to be 200 EUR, which is 50 EUR more than the Weller. That is the PS900, I've used the MX5000. As I understand they use the same cartridges.

Nope. The MX5000 (and MX500, and the old PS2E, etc etc) are 13.56MHz units. The PS and MFR units are 400kHz. They use different handpieces and tips, and the cheapest tip option uses a separate heater coil.

Thanks for the clarification.
Is there a big difference in their performance?

No experience with the baby ones.

[eV1Te]

I just wanted to mention a small inaccuracy in the video regarding thermocouples. You said that the thermocouple (Type K) couldn't go any higher than 250 deg.C.
This is incorrect, all Type K thermocouples are accurate up to 1350 deg.C and down to -200 deg.C (per definition/standard they are all made from the same alloy), and all good thermocouple meters should also be accurate in that range. 

However the plastic insulation on the wires are probably only rated for 250-300 deg.C. But this does not matter in your case since you are only heating the tip in your experiment, and even if you would char the insulation close to the tip, it would not affect the measurement.

Type K alloy:
Positive: Chromel (90% nickel, 10 % chromium), non-magnetic, melting-point 1420 deg.C
Negative: Alumel (95% nickel, 2% aluminum, 2% manganese, and 1% silicon), magnetic, melting-point 1399 deg.C

[eV1Te]

By they way, the Weller had a 60 Hz transformer and I assume that you were driving it at 110 V 50 Hz through an isolation transformer?
Could the incorrect frequency affect the transformers efficiency or possibly saturate the core when driven at its maximum load in such a way that the iron did not get it's full 70 W?

Remember that it is not recommended to run 60 Hz transformers at 50 Hz due to the 20 % higher flux in the core. For a transformer with small tolerances the 20 % higher flux would saturate the core and cause significant losses, the same as if you would increase the mains voltage by 20 %.

It would be interesting if you could measure the power-draw of each iron to see how much power they really use (65 W vs 70 W) and their respective response-time after putting the tip on the sponge!

[NiHaoMike]

By they way, the Weller had a 60 Hz transformer and I assume that you were driving it at 110 V 50 Hz through an isolation transformer?
Could the incorrect frequency affect the transformers efficiency or possibly saturate the core when driven at its maximum load in such a way that the iron did not get it's full 70 W?

Remember that it is not recommended to run 60 Hz transformers at 50 Hz due to the 20 % higher flux in the core. For a transformer with small tolerances the 20 % higher flux would saturate the core and cause significant losses, the same as if you would increase the mains voltage by 20 %.

It would be interesting if you could measure the power-draw of each iron to see how much power they really use (65 W vs 70 W) and their respective response-time after putting the tip on the sponge!

He has a VFD designed just for emulating foreign mains so I assume that's what he used.

[Bud]

It would be interesting if you could measure the power-draw of each iron to see how much power they really use (65 W vs 70 W) and their respective response-time after putting the tip on the sponge!

Good idea! I vote for this test.

[Terry01]

I got the FX-888 a few weeks ago and think it's a great wee iron! I would recommend it to anyone. In saying that I had the Katsu 852D before that which is a Hakko clone, I would recommend that too!    Honestly!

For anyone using the T12 Hakko clone iron get a genuine Hakko tip in your favourite flavour and see how much it improves the clone. I did and it's awesome! Well worth the extra £££

With the Katsu clone and the Hakko it is possible to put a small piece of copper around the iron element and slip on the fake tip's. It improves the performance of the fake tips, but the station will need recalibrating.

At work I have two irons; a Hakko FX-888D which is my daily work horse with loads of spare bits (Most of them fake), which I use for tinning leads, connectors and so on. For the more delicate component, SMD and other PCB work I have a JBC CD-2BE which I have a small selection of different bits.

For my home use I have a Katsu and that is adequate for home use and if I need to do something fairly tasking, I can take any circuit board into work and use the Hakko or JBC.

If I didn't have access to the equipment I have at work, then I would opt for the Hakko FX-888D. It really comes down to budget and requirements, if your a student then the Katsu will be fine, but for hobbyist and pensioner then the Hakko is a good buy.

I agree but the only thing on the clone iron is the black plastic ring/nut that holds the iron together on the clone tends to slacken off by itself if you put too much heat into it or use it for long periods. The genuine iron doesn't and the ring/nut is bacolite or something like that. The grey rubber grip on the clone  is easy to move too so I slide it onto the plastic nut a little which helps keeping it secure too. The extra heat that that genuine tip gives you makes the slipping ring/nut thing worse on the clone. I agree 100% that the clone is more than ample for most hobby stuff. I have seen on YouTube the copper slip trick but not used it myself. You can see the extra body in the genuine tips and i'm sure it is some sort of slip too, maybe copper like you say to use in the clone. I would love a shot of one of these irons people say are so much better than the FX-888. I find it wanting for nothing. I can hope 

[Red Squirrel]

I have that same Hakko which is my first "real" soldering iron. (was using a 40w fire stick before that) and the UI has always been my main complaint too.  I accidentally went into calibration mode once, did not realize, I was trying to set the temp but instead I (miss)calibrated it.  Doh!  To calibrate it I just found out the melting temp of solder and slowly brought it up until it started to melt.  I don't remember the steps I had to google it as I went along. Definitly not an intuitive UI.