EEVblog #1058 - Quick 861DW Hot Air Rework Station Review

[jonovid]

Quick 861DW Hot Air Rework Station Review


In my opinion, the odd style of design is somewhat poor for a top end rework station,  the color?
the steped cabinet design looks more at home on a truck bonnet then in a electronics lab.
I prefer a more functional design with rotary encoder knobs replacing the odd guitar pick buttons. 
the on/off switch miss out on the re-design. 
the LCD display screen looks good.


here is functional design using rotary encoder knobs

[tszaboo]

I've been working with Weller WR3000 stations for 5 years, and their hot air part is a total joke. It is way too loud, and not enough air, and only 400W. Then I tried the Atten 858D+ and it hit me, how much better it was at desoldering then the weller. At the same time, I also had a Metcal iron, and that was also better. I dont know is it fair, to compare a 3 in 1 station with a dedicated hot air? Maybe not, Weller has the WTHA-1 and it is 900W and 3x the price of this.
It just feels like someone slaps you in the face, and shows you something, that works a lot better than what you've been using for a long time.

For this station, my biggest complain would be the lack of IEC power input. It is really not hard to use that on every lab equipment. I dont understand how can they release something without that.

[wraper]

LOL, Dave, why are you using holder put backwards through all of the video? 
EDIT: BTW 861DW has 120l/min airflow. So according to spec it's supposed to be the same airflow as Atten. 200l/min is for 861DE. There is a lot of free space inside because DE version which uses the same enclosure has a HUUGE fan.

[wraper]

BTW heating element is cartridge type. You can just remove 3 screws and pull it out.

[geekabit]

That was a lovely episode, and it just happens that I'm in the market for a hot air station.

A couple of years ago I used to work for an electronics manufacturer, doing fault-finding and repairs on all kinds of circuit boards. I had a JBC AM6000 station at my disposal and that had the best hot air station I've ever used. It had 1kW of power and enough airflow to blow solder drops from the board. It also came with some additional bits. It had cups you could place around big parts to keep the heat in one place, shielding the rest of the board. It also had a lovely little tripod with a spring-loaded suction cup. You would place the tripod over a part and attach the suction cup to the top of your component. When the solder is all molten, the part is pulled up by half a centimetre.

Ever since I stopped working there I have longed to have one of those soldering stations at home, but with by budget that is not happening. Used those are occasionally available around 1200 Euro and that is quite a bit more than I'm willing to spend. How would the Quick compare to such a station?

[wraper]

Used those are occasionally available around 1200 Euro and that is quite a bit more than I'm willing to spend. How would the Quick compare to such a station?

Quick beats JBC.

[max_torque]

on difference is that the Atten has the air pump (actually a small axial fan) in the hand section, the Quick unit has the air pumped up the rubber hose from a pump in the unit.   Hence the Quick unit is probably nicer to use from a noise/NVH perspective as you are more likely to be holding the hand section close to your ears than the main body of the device, which is sat on your bench somewhere.

The small wire to the Atten hand section is more wieldy however, so it's a matter of personal opinion on which is better.


I find the atten unit to be powerful enough, in fact, the limit usually just becomes one of toasting / melting top side components if you try to heat the whole pcb via just hot air from above.  For IMS or heavy copper boards, a gentle warming (from a hot plate set at 100degC) or pre-warming from a toaster oven etc makes all the difference

[Pinkus]

The genuine EMI filter costs >100 Euro,
e.g. here https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/ZOB-Jianli-EMI-power-filter-DL-10T1-5PCS-LOT/119293_32695277012.html
I suppose they used a fake $7 version as available here (different printing on front and showing no schematic....I am wondering why the schematic is missing):
https://kulon.en.alibaba.com/product/60572572035-803948429/Low_pass_DL_10T1_10A_single_phase_emc_power_line_noise_rf_emi_filter.html

Dave: can you open the EMI filter? It would be very interesting to see whats inside - probably not a lot.

[tszaboo]

The genuine EMI filter costs >100 Euro,

That is 5PCS/lot.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Low-pass-DL-10T1-10A-single_60572572035.html

It is about 7 dollar.

[wraper]

The genuine EMI filter costs >100 Euro,

LOL. On which planet do you live? 2 chokes + a few capacitors > 100 EUR  . Only if you buy military grade.

[thm_w]

I think either Daves 858 unit is defective or the clones have made a lot of improvements. I have a "858D+" clone unit, set to 300 it will ramp up similar to the Quick and does not overshoot at all (ends at 296C). No problems with the magnetic sleep detection either. There is a big thread about custom firmware for the 858 here as well, probably initial firmware wasn't great.

I take louis' tool recommendations with a grain of salt after he claimed the Hakko (FR-803B?) heats up boards much faster than the 858. Even though it has a terrible diaphragm pump and the heater is rated ~400W, compared to the 858's 700W (about 600W in reality). At least in this video Dave clearly shows the quick 1kW is better than 600W. Probably about what you'd expect with ~50% more power and ~70% more similar air flow, that it would be almost twice as fast.

There is probably a market for an improved 858 unit with 1kW heater and a better fan, and proper high temperature cable. It could be almost as good as the Quick, and not have the downsides (thick heavy cable going to the handle, and huge control box). But Quick definitely looks like a great unit.

[wraper]

I take louis' tool recommendations with a grain of salt after he claimed the Hakko (FR-803B?) heats up boards much faster than the 858. Even though it has a terrible diaphragm pump and the heater is rated ~400W, compared to the 858's 700W (about 600W in reality). At least in this video Dave clearly shows the quick 1kW is better than 600W. Probably about what you'd expect with ~50% more power and ~70% more air flow, that it would be almost twice as fast.

According to spec, airflow is the "same" for quick and atten, so you should guess that someone is not honest. Dave got spec wrong for quick, 861DW has 120l/min airflow. He most likely confused it with 861DE which is 1.3kW and 200l/min. Look on the picture in my post above.

[wraper]

There is probably a market for an improved 858 unit with 1kW heater and a better fan, and proper high temperature cable. It could be almost as good as the Quick, and not have the downsides (thick heavy cable going to the handle, and huge control box). But Quick definitely looks like a great unit.

Downsides? You rather prefer bulky and heavy handpiece vibrating in your hand which is unable to work up to rated airflow? Fan used is not intended for such application, therefore cannot offer good airflow at high static pressure, which happens especially when you use a small nozzle.

[SeanB]

Just thinking that, as this likely will be most used with the handle vertical, that having the hose coming out of the top of the unit, or an elbow for the front, along with a lightly spring loaded arm to keep that loop of tubing up out of the way, would be a good modification to the unit, or at least use it with the base on a shelf above your work area, so the tubing is less in the way.

[thm_w]

Downsides? You rather prefer bulky and heavy handpiece vibrating in your hand which is unable to work up to rated airflow? Fan used is not intended for such application, therefore cannot offer good airflow at high static pressure, which happens especially when you use a small nozzle.

Would be interesting to weigh the handles, I suspect they are not too far off.
I agree with you the fan on Quick is going to be way better, but its a trade-off where you have to use bulky tubing.

[wraper]

I agree with you the fan on Quick is going to be way better, but its a trade-off where you have to use bulky tubing.

I don't find it any more constraining than simple cable.

[EMC]

There could easily be a conducted EMI issue with this product. The mains filter appears relatively ineffective because of incorrect layout & wiring. Mains should come into the chassis and straight to the mains filter first (in-line fuse excepted); then the output of the filter should be routed to the front panel switch. Also, a straight line layout should be the target. If this is not done the high filtering figures spec'd for the filter will never be realised. I wish Dave had of remembered to power the LISN from an isolation transformer. Or, he may even return to this hopefully.?

[wraper]

There could easily be a conducted EMI issue with this product. The mains filter appears relatively ineffective because of incorrect layout & wiring. Mains should come into the chassis and straight to the mains filter first (in-line fuse excepted); then the output of the filter should be routed to the front panel switch. Also, a straight line layout should be the target. If this is not done the high filtering figures spec'd for the filter will never be realised. I wish Dave had of remembered to power the LISN from an isolation transformer. Or, he may even return to this hopefully.?

OK, please explain, how additional 25cm of the wire added to the mains cable and long building wiring will make any noticeable difference. And not, there are no EMI issues with quick. Actually it's really ridiculous to repeatedly hear about lights flickering discussed as EMI issue. The reason why lights are flickering is because 1kW resistive load is constantly switched on and off to keep the set temperature. It's much larger problem with 120V mains voltage as wiring can supply less power end therefore experience higher voltage sag percentage relative to the mains voltage.

[EMC]

25cm of mains cabling passing closely by all RF emission sources effectively 'short circuits' the RF filter function; input to output.   It reduces filter effectiveness to around 10-15dB rather than >40dB available.   I have seen this several times when mains enters at the rear is then routed to the on/off switch on the front panel & then back to the rear to be applied to the filter.   The best technical solution is to use a filter with integrated IEC socket.  That forces the first connection to be mains to the filter at the rear.     

BTW.   I am not sayng there is a relationship between the lights flickering & EMI.   The device does have to meet reg's for EMI.   Why is there such a large mains filter??

[NiHaoMike]

OK, please explain, how additional 25cm of the wire added to the mains cable and long building wiring will make any noticeable difference. And not, there are no EMI issues with quick. Actually it's really ridiculous to repeatedly hear about lights flickering discussed as EMI issue. The reason why lights are flickering is because 1kW resistive load is constantly switched on and off to keep the set temperature. It's much larger problem with 120V mains voltage as wiring can supply less power end therefore experience higher voltage sag percentage relative to the mains voltage.

I have encountered a dimmer that is very EMI sensitive. The lights connected to it (and only those lights) flicker like crazy when a vacuum cleaner is in use.

[wraper]

OK, please explain, how additional 25cm of the wire added to the mains cable and long building wiring will make any noticeable difference. And not, there are no EMI issues with quick. Actually it's really ridiculous to repeatedly hear about lights flickering discussed as EMI issue. The reason why lights are flickering is because 1kW resistive load is constantly switched on and off to keep the set temperature. It's much larger problem with 120V mains voltage as wiring can supply less power end therefore experience higher voltage sag percentage relative to the mains voltage.

I have encountered a dimmer that is very EMI sensitive. The lights connected to it (and only those lights) flicker like crazy when a vacuum cleaner is in use.

Dunno about cleaner but question was about wires going to the switch first claimed to be adding EMI issues. If you were radiating that piece of wire with RF transmitter, or run around something like brushed motor, then maybe. 861 even has plastic front panel, so I don't think that box may contain EMI transmitter inside it.

[wraper]

25cm of mains cabling passing closely by all RF emission sources effectively 'short circuits' the RF filter function; input to output.   It reduces filter effectiveness to around 10-15dB rather than >40dB available.   I have seen this several times when mains enters at the rear is then routed to the on/off switch on the front panel & then back to the rear to be applied to the filter.
BTW.   I am not sayng there is a relationship between the lights flickering & EMI.   The device does have to meet reg's for EMI.   Why is there such a large mains filter??

Dunno why they spent money on such filter but 861 uses zero-crossing for the heater. Likely it would be fine even without any filter.

The best technical solution is to use a filter with integrated IEC socket.  That forces the first connection to be mains to the filter at the rear.   

 
If you get filter in such package, then it should be 1 stage only and with low inductance to be rated for enough current.

[mrpackethead]

I was curious about the technique of hitting the chips with 400degrees?    I' go to a lot of effort to preheat the board, and then run a ramped up profile ( start with air at about 220C then move to 340C ), but you just hit it with 400C and 20seconds later chip is off.   Awesome.    Is there a risk factor in this?

[Markybhoy]

I bought 2 of these a while back from Somatin and had to return them due to the nasty smell from them was strange as I've never heard anyone else with this problem

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/quick-861dw-hot-air-station/msg1296069/#msg1296069

Maybe I'll take a punt on one from Loius.

Also here is a calibration vid -

https://youtu.be/f_GKo_4EZhQ

[Monkeh]

I think either Daves 858 unit is defective or the clones have made a lot of improvements. I have a "858D+" clone unit, set to 300 it will ramp up similar to the Quick and does not overshoot at all (ends at 296C). No problems with the magnetic sleep detection either. There is a big thread about custom firmware for the 858 here as well, probably initial firmware wasn't great.

No, the clones make it worse. Most of them actively lie - they WILL NOT show a temperature above the set temperature, and they all overshoot horribly.