EEVblog #1048 - Ledger Nano S Crypto Hardware Wallet

[Halcyon]

Yes, the 24 word seed is paper, but those in the know etch theirs on titanium in characters so small they must be viewed under a microscope 

The problem I have with these "recovery seeds" is that I presume it relies on Trezor or Ledger existing tomorrow? If they pack up shop, sell their business, site goes down etc... etc... then what? I'm left with 24 words which are utterly useless.

No, I explained this in the video.
You can recover the seed (and hence your coins) to any BIP39 compatible wallet, either hardware or software.

Sure but where is it getting the "rest" of the data from?

[WastelandTek]

Sure but where is it getting the "rest" of the data from?

Your search string is "deterministic wallet" should you choose to dig in to how this works.  The code was first implemented in BIP-0032.

[EEVblog]

The problem I have with these "recovery seeds" is that I presume it relies on Trezor or Ledger existing tomorrow? If they pack up shop, sell their business, site goes down etc... etc... then what? I'm left with 24 words which are utterly useless.

No, I explained this in the video.
You can recover the seed (and hence your coins) to any BIP39 compatible wallet, either hardware or software.

Sure but where is it getting the "rest" of the data from?

The blockchain stored on a zillion computers on the internet. That's the magic of it.

[Halcyon]

Ahh gotcha! Of course!

Thanks Dave.

[wbicks]

I ordered the Ledger after (and despite) watching your video.
I'm pleased to say I'm having a much better time with it, and it sounds like you're running better now as well.

1) The screen shows the whole address when confirming a transaction now. I'm guessing yours is/was running an outdated firmware.
2) I, like you, thought it was absurd to download an individual app for each coin. It looks like, however, the "Bitcoin" wallet handles all the other altcoins EXCEPT xrp and eth. Does this make sense? No. Is it more convenient that having a separate app? Yes. I have successful sent and received both LTC and VTC, and it just runs through the "Bitcoin" wallet.
3) The CTO of Ledger is very active on Reddit, and has been explaining that the XRP network has been wonky on ledgers, and that they are working to fix it. I don't work with XRP, but that at least answers that.

That being said, with google's plan to kill off chrome apps, I'm looking forward to the standalone wallet promised by the developers. It should handle auto installing and uninstalling of apps on the device, and should centralize the control for all the coins, and hopefully make a much better product.

-WB

[Peabody]

wbicks, I've already displayed my ignorance about all this once here, but I would appreciate it if you could explain how just the 24-word seed would allow you to recover all of those different alt coins if you dropped your Ledger in the ocean.  Would you even have to remember which alts you had, or is that available just from the seed?  If the seed is enough, can you explain how everything can be reconstructed from that?  Or if there's an explanation online that you can link me to, that would be great.

[wbicks]

Peabody:

I would appreciate it if you could explain how just the 24-word seed would allow you to recover all of those different alt coins if you dropped your Ledger in the ocean.

The 24 word seed is a random string of text that is unique to you, it's your signature. Using that string, you can calculate your private keys for your different coins. There are sites and software to reconstruct your keys from this recovery phrase, but be very careful of who you give access to your key --  it is the master key to your wallet, and can empty it in a second.

Using your private key, which is generated from that 24 word string, you can sign any crypto transaction. The ledger provides a compact, secure, and easy way to sign and broadcast these messages thereby transferring coins, but it is by no means the only way to do so.

As long as you have that key, you can still sign transactions, and therefore have full access to your coins.

Would you even have to remember which alts you had, or is that available just from the seed? If the seed is enough, can you explain how everything can be reconstructed from that?

As far as I know, you would have to check which coins you were storing. Each coin uses a different private key, by taking your 24 words and performing a different mathematical function. That being said, once again, if you have your 24 words, you can easily generate your private keys for every single coin, and then just see if any of those wallets have coins in them or not.

Or if there's an explanation online that you can link me to, that would be great.

Here are some good followup resources:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/77k0ni/explain_how_the_24_word_seed_can_recover_your/


-WB

[Peabody]

Software wallets can generate a whole series of addresses and private keys for a coin.   if Ledger does that too, then it seems that keeping track of which ones you have used would further complicate the recovery process.

Well, I'm sure it's been thought through and works fine.  I just have trouble understanding it.  Of course there's no requirement that I have to understand it.

Thanks for the response.

[JackM]

Bit of an off-topic question, but could someone tell me the physical size of the Trezor's OLED screen? Is it 1.3" or 0.96" diagonally? Alternatively, what is the width of the screen in millimeters?

[EEVblog]

Bit of an off-topic question, but could someone tell me the physical size of the Trezor's OLED screen? Is it 1.3" or 0.96" diagonally? Alternatively, what is the width of the screen in millimeters?

About 0.96" diagonal

[JackM]

Perfect, thanks Dave. I'm looking at assembling my own Trezor and discovered that the OLED screen comes in two sizes. Every other parameter of the part is the same, just that one version has a physically larger screen with the same resolution.

[WastelandTek]

... at assembling my own Trezor ...

Are you concerned about sourcing a genuine, untampered micro?  or no

[JackM]

Are you concerned about sourcing a genuine, untampered micro?  or no

I don't have any reason to believe that a bare microcontroller that I order via an electronics supplier such as Digikey would be tampered with. I'd be flashing the whole thing with Trezor firmware anyways. So no, I'm not really worried at all about that.

[orion242]

Is the bubble popping?

https://www.coindesk.com/as-bitcoins-slide-continues-prices-look-towards-8k/

Value of paper money fluctuating wildly....lol compared to this?!?

[djnz]

Fyi:

Firmware 1.4: deep dive into three vulnerabilities which have been fixed
Blog post by the 15 year old who reported the flaw
Brian Krebs's post about this

[Lockon Stratos]

Is the bubble popping?

https://www.coindesk.com/as-bitcoins-slide-continues-prices-look-towards-8k/

Value of paper money fluctuating wildly....lol compared to this?!?

It doesnt seem like it it unfortunately . GPU prices still through the roof.... Our last hope is the government banning these good for nothing fake money.