EEVblog #1048 - Ledger Nano S Crypto Hardware Wallet

[EEVblog]

A review and teardown of the Ledger Nano S crypto currency hardware wallet. Installation and setup.
And a comparison with the Trezor.
Secure chip: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/data_brief/ac/ed/36/cb/1c/04/43/a8/DM00240763.pdf/files/DM00240763.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.DM00240763.pdf

[WastelandTek]

Oh, this thread will have plenty of unique new viewpoints expressed in it I'm sure   

Nice comparison Dave, thanks.  I think I will be sticking with my deterministic paper wallet until one of these outfits ups their game a bit.  I agree, for the price it seems either one could offer a real metal case at least...and finished apps that work when you click on??

[EEVblog]

Nice comparison Dave, thanks.  I think I will be sticking with my deterministic paper wallet until one of these outfits ups their game a bit.  I agree, for the price it seems either one could offer a real metal case at least...and finished apps that work when you click on??

FYI, the apps seems to be working fine now, and I'm doing real transactions now. Not sure what the issue was if it will return.

[Peabody]

Since electronics aren't absolutely immune from failure, it seems there should be a backup in case the Trezor or Ledger dies.  Is there a provision for that for either of them?  Paper perhaps? 

[orion242]

Guessing that's what the recovery words are for.

i'll stick with my paper money.  Its was worth X on Monday and its worth X today.  System that makes it easy to put money in but not out, is just lining up cattle to the slaughter.

[WastelandTek]

Since electronics aren't absolutely immune from failure, it seems there should be a backup in case the Trezor or Ledger dies.  Is there a provision for that for either of them?  Paper perhaps?

Did you watch?

Dave went on and on about the recovery seed and how that was more important to secure than the device.  Jump to 4:40.

Yes, the 24 word seed is paper, but those in the know etch theirs on titanium in characters so small they must be viewed under a microscope 

[Peabody]

OK, I guess I'm confused.  Is there a password of some kind that's needed to get into the device in the first place, or do you just plug it in?  Also, do the 24 words let you recover the private keys of all of the different currency wallets that are stored in the device? (I'm assuming they don't all use the same private key.)  Well, I obviously need to go back and read up on these things.  Then I can ask even more dumb questions.

[xygor]

Guessing that's what the recovery words are for.

i'll stick with my paper money.  Its was worth X on Monday and its worth X today.  System that makes it easy to put money in but not out, is just lining up cattle to the slaughter.

You are wrong.  It is worth considerably more bitcoin today than it was on Monday.

[orion242]

And if you bought last thr and withdraw on fri?

When its falling down in price you want to move out 100K, how does one do that?  How do you do that any day?  What about 1M?  Its worth nothing if I can't get out when I needed it.

[WastelandTek]

Its worth nothing if I can't get out when I needed it.

fine

it's not for you, we got that, stick to your 401k

[xygor]

And if you bought last thr and withdraw on fri?

When its falling down in price you want to move out 100K, how does one do that?  How do you do that any day?  What about 1M?  Its worth nothing if I can't get out when I needed it.

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't talking about buying or selling anything, just that the value of your paper money is fluctuating wildly.
I should have said: It [your paper money] is worth considerably more bitcoin today than it was on Monday.  So why would one want to exchange bitcoin for volatile paper money? I'm half joking, but it is another viewpoint.

[orion242]

So why would one want to exchange bitcoin for volatile paper money?

Buy my retirement home after scoring big in the crypto for example.  Or, pay bills, buy food, gas in my car, or anything I use cash for today...

[xygor]

Check out
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/still-using-cash/
"It facilitates crime, bribery, and tax evasion – and yet some governments (including ours) are printing more cash than ever. Other countries, meanwhile, are ditching cash entirely. And if Star Trek is right, we won’t have money of any sort in the 24th century."

[FrankBuss]

Regarding the anti-tamper, this is hilarious. A criminal would just make a replica with own software of the whole stick, if he/she has access to the package. Sure, it is expensive, but the reward is high, so risk is high that it will be done.

I didn't worry much so far, I'm using just an encrypted wallet with a long password on my PC and backup it, but now with the higher value I think about cold storage, using an easy to remember word seed, which I will generate with bitaddress.org (of course, running it offline, it is all local JavaScript, from a Linux Live CD).

BTW Dave, I've just sent you a bit Bitcoin to your address. Price is nice at the moment, I sold already half of all my remaining Bitcoin. It was really cheap when I bought it 2 years ago

PS: maybe I'm paranoid, but showing a few words in your video for the seed might be sufficient for someone to recreate the internal random number state, depending on how it is implemented.

[FrankBuss]

Just a tip if someone has Bitcoins: If you had Bitcoins (BTC) on August 1st 2017, you have automatically the same amount in Bitcoin Cash (BCH), even if you spent your BTC later. On exchanges like poloniex.com you can change 1 BCH to about 0.2 BTC. So definitely worth the trouble to install the BCH wallet BitcoinABC and rescan all your private BTC keys.

[Froese]

A browser app can install new firmware on the ledger and they talk about security?!? Come on, that's rediculous!

[FrankBuss]

A browser app can install new firmware on the ledger and they talk about security?!? Come on, that's rediculous!

This is no problem, if they have encrypted and signed firmware files, assuming the device itself is not compromised.

[Froese]

A browser app can install new firmware on the ledger and they talk about security?!? Come on, that's rediculous!

This is no problem, if they have encrypted and signed firmware files, assuming the device itself is not compromised.

Until the signing key gets public. But, seeing that you can upload your own "apps" onto the device,  that's not the case anyway.

[Peabody]

Just a tip if someone has Bitcoins: If you had Bitcoins (BTC) on August 1st 2017, you have automatically the same amount in Bitcoin Cash (BCH), even if you spent your BTC later. On exchanges like poloniex.com you can change 1 BCH to about 0.2 BTC. So definitely worth the trouble to install the BCH wallet BitcoinABC and rescan all your private BTC keys.

Isn't there also a Bitcoin Gold fork that works the same way?

[FrankBuss]

Just a tip if someone has Bitcoins: If you had Bitcoins (BTC) on August 1st 2017, you have automatically the same amount in Bitcoin Cash (BCH), even if you spent your BTC later. On exchanges like poloniex.com you can change 1 BCH to about 0.2 BTC. So definitely worth the trouble to install the BCH wallet BitcoinABC and rescan all your private BTC keys.

Isn't there also a Bitcoin Gold fork that works the same way?

It is just a copycat, as with other clones after Bitcoin Cash, and Bitcoin Gold is not listed at poloniex.com. Looks like you can't pull off the same trick more than once, not even with the silly crypto world But it is listed at bittrex.com and currently worth 0.019 BTC, so if you had or have at least one Bitcoin, it would be worth like EUR 200, so might be worth to exchange this as well. Funnily, if you go to the Bitcoin Gold site and the FAQ, then click on the second "When was Bitcoin Gold created?" entry, it even says "Bitcoin Cash" in the last sentence, so they didn't bother to proofread it carefully when they copied Bitcoin Cash.

[WastelandTek]

[EEVblog]

Since electronics aren't absolutely immune from failure, it seems there should be a backup in case the Trezor or Ledger dies.  Is there a provision for that for either of them?  Paper perhaps?

Watch the video, it is explained. That's what the seed recovery is for.

[EEVblog]

BTW Dave, I've just sent you a bit Bitcoin to your address. Price is nice at the moment, I sold already half of all my remaining Bitcoin. It was really cheap when I bought it 2 years ago

Thanks 
I get quite a few anonymous crypto donations, and because they are anonymous I have no way to thank them.

[Halcyon]

Yes, the 24 word seed is paper, but those in the know etch theirs on titanium in characters so small they must be viewed under a microscope 

The problem I have with these "recovery seeds" is that I presume it relies on Trezor or Ledger existing tomorrow? If they pack up shop, sell their business, site goes down etc... etc... then what? I'm left with 24 words which are utterly useless.

But then again, I suppose these sorts of devices aren't designed for long term or "archival" storage of your crypto-currencies, they are designed for those people who make regular deposits and withdrawals.

On the topic of crypto, I'm not touching Bitcoin.* at all. There are far better crypto's out there which pose much less of a risk to your hard-earned dollars.

[EEVblog]

Yes, the 24 word seed is paper, but those in the know etch theirs on titanium in characters so small they must be viewed under a microscope 

The problem I have with these "recovery seeds" is that I presume it relies on Trezor or Ledger existing tomorrow? If they pack up shop, sell their business, site goes down etc... etc... then what? I'm left with 24 words which are utterly useless.

No, I explained this in the video.
You can recover the seed (and hence your coins) to any BIP39 compatible wallet, either hardware or software.