eevBLAB 91 - Why Are Fluke Meters So EXPENSIVE?

[Shock]

Perhaps Kiss Analog is just nervous, it's disconcerting though.

Daves ok, sure he repeats a bit but he edits and retakes on the fly. Personally I don't go for the high energy type presentation style but I support Dave and the forum by watching, reading and clicking on the adverts etc. Dave might not like my presentation style either, the world doesn't have to be perfect. This Christmas I'll be also drinking Daves share of beer again, I find it a happy medium.

Mjlorton was really hard to watch, you can turn his speed up to 1.25 times to digitally fix him hehe. He would be bigger than Dave by now if he kept posting regular videos but the opportunity was squandered. Easy also to lose your audience by changing your content suddenly.

[EEVblog]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion

A mis-speak is guaranteed in every video or your money back!
I do like to edit my videos much more now than I use to. And I like to think even if a lot fo it is waffle, I'll edit it to concise waffle and ensure it's useful information (or at least what I consider useful).
I often do two pass editing now which tightens up the video a bit further from the main edit. Maybe an extra minute or two off a 30 minute video perhaps, but I think that's worth it.

[jpanhalt]

Just delete the circulating fan in the background.  It serves as a timestamp to discern where the video has been edited.

[Shock]

Forgot to mention, the high energy presentation style is preferred for audiences with low attention spans i.e. the masses. Dave has likely brought more people into the hobby than anyone else on youtube, and has the most diverse channel content as well.

It's hard to be all things to all people and predict the future. You could be ahead of a trend such as Arduino and amass a huge audience but get railroaded if something new/better comes along.

As it happens this Fluke video (and few others) bagged Dave a bunch of new youtube subs this month. Got to be happy with 150k views in 3 days. The Veritasium video also did extremely well, half a million views in a few weeks. Got to be happy with that, might even be worth milking it for another video.

[XantheFIN]

Fluke has fluke to show low ohm circuits/shorts as negative ohms in certain situations. 

[Shock]

I know you're probably messing around. You tend to see that if another current source is flowing in the circuit or the meters input has been damaged. It's almost 1M so not close to low ohms at all.

That model does have lead compensation so it might even be possible to give it a 1M offset. Then measuring a short would give you a negative measurement.

But hey, when in doubt just "rel" it out right? . Oops no delta/rel feature on that model, bad luck.

[XantheFIN]

I know you're probably messing around. You tend to see that if another current source is flowing in the circuit or the meters input has been damaged. It's almost 1M so not close to low ohms at all.

That model does have lead compensation so it might even be possible to give it a 1M offset. Then measuring a short would give you a negative measurement.

But hey, when in doubt just "rel" it out right? . Oops no delta/rel feature on that model, bad luck.

I knew things starts throwing around so i took next picture show all is fine on this oldie (not mine actually its workplace) and i know the circuit where shows negative million ohms is indeed short due i was measuring relay's closed contacts *Correction. i did not remember anymore* it did on each and every one i measured which had circuit like it. Or i need complain to Omrom their PLC suck which was in parallel to that external relay But i give the one theory is closest what happening you mentioned most likely.

P.S. In Beeb position Fluke works fine as it does Beeb as should but on Ohms it shows that reading so its confused 

Update: Ops i was wrong i went check schematics that i was probing A1 terminal and output of logic. Not relay contacts. My bad 

[Milmat1]

Very simple example:

I am looking for another DMM right now. To compliment my old Fluke 87. I read reviews, watch videos etc etc etc...

Out of frustration I will likely end up buying another Fluke. Simply because I know that I basically cannot go wrong. Even though there may be better meters (accurate,Reliable, Durable) on the market that cost 1/2 of the price.

But between things like availabilty and mixed reviews I will just buy a Fluke.  Besides it having a certain prestidge asigned to it everyone reconizes the meter and can respect it's readings.

I thought this video was excellent informative and just a great idea.  Another Big Thumbs up for our friend down under.....

[Milmat1]

Negative Resistance !!  Dude your gonna be super rich !!

[wizard69]

These are all valid points, yet pretty specific ones (army).

Not just army, the entire defense forces, government, education, and countless big businesses.
That total market is so big it makes Fluke still one of the highest volume multimeter makers in the world.

Speaking as one that has not been in military service but yet have had long history with small to midsize businesses I've finally come to the realization that they (managers / owners) don't care about the cost of equipment all that much.  As long as the purchase is justified, and will not create problems, the cost of an instrument is not a big deal.   The "not create problems" is a big deal, even a glitch of a day can cause huge budget and timing problems so going the safe route is the sane thing to do.    This especially if your industry has the requirement for strict validation work and a procedure for everything including how to take a crap.

As an example; when starting out I was working with a field engineer installing a new tool.   In the process he specified the type meter required for calibration, one feature being a thermal converter for AC measurements.   This narrowed things down a bit and other specs even more.    Reluctantly I went to the boss with the requirements and a meter that meant the specs (not a Fluke actually, but not cheap either).   I was reluctant because the company was notoriously cheap even while make big bucks, but no problem whatever is needed.   I was a bit shocked really.

Personally I've stayed with Fluke at most places I've worked due to the great services they provide.   Note it didn't matter to me if it was a personally owned meter or one the company would own, when you are making a living with a tool there are other factors beyond price that are important.   It is sort of like asking why mechanics buy Snap-On tools, sometimes they are expensive but there are also issues beyond price to consider.   Service is a big one.

It is interesting too that mechanics often rely upon Snap-On for some of the same reason many of us rely upon Fluke.  Things like tools with a long run time, this means if something breaks you are likely to get a relatively exact replacement.   Another issue is a refined and familiar interface that keeps adjustment time to a minimal.   Now this is not to dismiss that both Fluke and Snap-ON have issues, every company does.   The point is they serve markets where the professionals they are dealing with have certain expectations of them.

[wizard69]

...
I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

Working in the test equipment industry, I can confirm this slogan is heard frequently. I think it started in the 80's and it was about HP, but it suits Fluke very well.

It can also be extremely frustrating when you can't buy from HP or Fluke.   We are on the look out at work for a decent light intensity meter that doesn't fall apart when you look at it.  As such we would easily pay for an offering from one of these companies.   A lot of companies in the instrumentation field are not building robust equipment and frankly seem to have an attitude when you suggest that they need to do better.   In the case of Fluke or HP, I'm pretty sure a hardware revision would be in the works if the problem was common enough.

[Cerebus]

Regarding the Fluke lifetime warranty, I can confirm that it means what it says. My 28 II developed a weird fault, I sent it back to them, and in about a week a brand new replacement arrived. I had registered the meter that failed so they were able to check ownership - the story might be different if yours was bought second-hand and registered to someone else. There are very few companies that offer such a good warranty. I agree 100% with everything else that Dave said.

The "gotcha" with the Fluke lifetime warranty is that it is original purchaser only. Nothing wrong with that, it keeps things affordable for Fluke what with so many 2nd hand examples circulating but it has caught some people out

[Cerebus]

...
I would sum it up as: you will never get fired for purchasing Fluke meters.

Working in the test equipment industry, I can confirm this slogan is heard frequently. I think it started in the 80's and it was about HP, but it suits Fluke very well.

It can also be extremely frustrating when you can't buy from HP or Fluke.   We are on the look out at work for a decent light intensity meter that doesn't fall apart when you look at it.  As such we would easily pay for an offering from one of these companies.   A lot of companies in the instrumentation field are not building robust equipment and frankly seem to have an attitude when you suggest that they need to do better.   In the case of Fluke or HP, I'm pretty sure a hardware revision would be in the works if the problem was common enough.

Take a look at Gossen. Industry standard for many industries that rely on accurate light measurements, including photographic/cinematographic meters that still work when they've been dragged though jungles and deserts.. They were spun off from Gossen Metrawatt back in 1997 but they've been making light metering equipment since the year dot. Reassuringly expensive.

[wizard69]

Regarding the Fluke lifetime warranty, I can confirm that it means what it says. My 28 II developed a weird fault, I sent it back to them, and in about a week a brand new replacement arrived. I had registered the meter that failed so they were able to check ownership - the story might be different if yours was bought second-hand and registered to someone else. There are very few companies that offer such a good warranty. I agree 100% with everything else that Dave said.

This is a bit off-topic, but there is one other thing I have noticed with Fluke. Nothing gets you more instant credibility with a client than pulling out a full-size modern Fluke DMM. Yes, obviously any fool with enough money could buy one, but it seems that it is only competent professionals that make the investment. I've never regretted it myself.

The other really important thing is that the cost of a handheld meter from Fluke is trivial for most businesses.   If somebody walks into your business with a $10 meter from HF you have to wonder if they have the ability to succeed and have a decent track record.   I've worked with so any field engineers / techs over the years that there are certain things that give you confidence in seeing whatever is happening through.   A tech with a bunch of dime store ill maintained tools will not inspire confidence.   Today laptops can send a similar message.   You don't want too cheap of a laptop and certainly not so poorly maintained that it can't boot up half the time.

[wizard69]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion

A mis-speak is guaranteed in every video or your money back!
I do like to edit my videos much more now than I use to. And I like to think even if a lot fo it is waffle, I'll edit it to concise waffle and ensure it's useful information (or at least what I consider useful).
I often do two pass editing now which tightens up the video a bit further from the main edit. Maybe an extra minute or two off a 30 minute video perhaps, but I think that's worth it.

Just too confirm, from the standpoint of a semi regular user of the EEVBlog, I do like the quality of your videos.   I don't expect youtubers to be carbon copies of each other and frankly I try to enjoy some variety in what I watch.   The semi regular comes from the reality that if I watched all the content I'm interested in I would never get anything done around the house.

If anything your content has sort of contributed to my thinking about Youtube in retirement.   The problem I have is focus, as the content would be all over the place and I'm not too sure how well that would work.   So think of yourself as inspiring, in my case to go a bit deeper into electronics than I have in my work career.   So edit away,

[AG6QR]

The other really important thing is that the cost of a handheld meter from Fluke is trivial for most businesses.

Agreed!  Any time a business sends a truck to my house with a technician to do a job that will take an hour or more, it always ends up costing me quite a bit more than a Fluke meter, and they do this multiple times per day. 

A carpenter doesn't buy the cheapest hammer, a lumberjack doesn't buy the cheapest chainsaw, and an electrician shouldn't buy the cheapest meter. The primary tools you depend on every day aren't the place to cut costs, especially when the top brands don't cost so much to begin with.

I like that my Fluke 16 (an obsolete discontinued model) can be fed mains electricity while it's set up for resistance mode, and not only will it not blow up, but it will happily switch to low-Z voltage mode and display the measured voltage.  It's idiot proof.  I like to think I'm smart enough not to accidentally have the meter set in the wrong mode, but I'm sure that, if I were using it for eight hours a day in a variety of situations, I'd eventually do something stupid, and appreciate that the meter would cover for me.

[rsjsouza]

These are all valid points, yet pretty specific ones (army).

Not just army, the entire defense forces, government, education, and countless big businesses.
That total market is so big it makes Fluke still one of the highest volume multimeter makers in the world.

Speaking as one that has not been in military service but yet have had long history with small to midsize businesses I've finally come to the realization that they (managers / owners) don't care about the cost of equipment all that much.  As long as the purchase is justified, and will not create problems, the cost of an instrument is not a big deal.   The "not create problems" is a big deal, even a glitch of a day can cause huge budget and timing problems so going the safe route is the sane thing to do.

Precisely. The Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) is what really matters. No problems = low TCO. Also, the simpler justification given to management w.r.t. the choice of a tool, the better chances of getting it approved. Too many lines on your request and you risk having it delayed or ignored.

Of course, this holds true for Fluke as DMMs are relatively simple devices that do not become obsolete as other areas of the T&M market. 

Case in point: our labs once flooded with Tek scopes are now relegated only to the benches that require very basic uses - otherwise, R&S, LeCroy and Keysights are the norm. I don't have access to one of these and would love to bring my own Rigol there, which runs miles around the poor old TDS3014Bs that we have in the storage but nobody wants them.

[spackard]

Another reason:  If you're really designing in aerospace then almost certainly you won't be the person using the meter.
There's a whole crew of (cheaper, more readily available)  test and support technicians, who have high-school degrees and heard the company pays well.
They aren't EEs, they have no desire to become EEs, they're hired to run (your) test procedures and give it an "approved", or, more likely, stop the test and call over an engineer on how to proceed.

You give technicians training (annually); they may or may not pay attention.

But, you have to have confidence that the test equipment is doing reliable and repeatable measurements when it's thousands of miles away from your workplace and you aren't the one doing the measurements.

[thm_w]

Case in point: our labs once flooded with Tek scopes are now relegated only to the benches that require very basic uses - otherwise, R&S, LeCroy and Keysights are the norm. I don't have access to one of these and would love to bring my own Rigol there, which runs miles around the poor old TDS3014Bs that we have in the storage but nobody wants them.

If you are able, sell them off then use the money to buy a few rigol, they go for over $700.

[rsjsouza]

Case in point: our labs once flooded with Tek scopes are now relegated only to the benches that require very basic uses - otherwise, R&S, LeCroy and Keysights are the norm. I don't have access to one of these and would love to bring my own Rigol there, which runs miles around the poor old TDS3014Bs that we have in the storage but nobody wants them.

If you are able, sell them off then use the money to buy a few rigol, they go for over $700.

I wish... R&R does not allow individual employees to purchase decomissioned/faulty equipment anymore. 

[james_s]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion. I haven't watched much of Kiss Analog's videos largely due to an unfair prejudice against the way he pronounces "multimeter", but I actually would be interested in hearing more of his stories. He seems like a nice enough person with an interesting background that is taking the time to put out content. It just seems like there is a disconnect at times between where his brain is and the words coming out of his mouth.

In many of his videos I often skip ahead when he is rambling about something that doesn't particularly interest me, it's ok, maybe it is interesting to somebody else. I certainly have no room to complain about rambling about obscure details that interest me.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Would be nice to have a comprehensive thread of meter schematics actually.

Indeed.

As an innocent bystander, it would be interesting to see if we could distil down how much meter protection exists on the PCB vs the actual discrete components.

[gnavigator1007]

While I think it would certainly be great to have a dedicated thread, I'd also worry that it could quickly become a target for DMCA. Any designated thread for that sort of posting would be best kept in the supporters area.

[Ed.Kloonk]

While I think it would certainly be great to have a dedicated thread, I'd also worry that it could quickly become a target for DMCA. Any designated thread for that sort of posting would be best kept in the supporters area.

Oh yeah.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Absolutely! I know Dave has acknowledged his own tendency for waffle, but this is something else entirely. I can't remember Dave ever being so hard to follow, even if he might run off on a tangent or mis-speak on occasion. I haven't watched much of Kiss Analog's videos largely due to an unfair prejudice against the way he pronounces "multimeter", but I actually would be interested in hearing more of his stories. He seems like a nice enough person with an interesting background that is taking the time to put out content. It just seems like there is a disconnect at times between where his brain is and the words coming out of his mouth.

In many of his videos I often skip ahead when he is rambling about something that doesn't particularly interest me, it's ok, maybe it is interesting to somebody else. I certainly have no room to complain about rambling about obscure details that interest me.

All Y/T'rs waffle. In Dave's defence, I put it to you that the eevblog channel waffle is where anyone else's channel would contain ads for numblua or some other retarded crap nobody cares about.