eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell

[EEVblog]

Is Dave asking too much to get a resume without spelling or grammar mistakes?

[miguelvp]

Not that important if you want your product descriptions to be in close competition with Chinese products.

Kidding of course. Nowadays it should be easy to write proper resumes (or CVs or however you call them in your place)

One of the important aspects of Engineering is communication and documentation, specially in large projects that you have to work with third party vendors. If you can't explain what you need then it's going to take way longer wasting resources and money.

So I agree with your, spelling and grammar are a good indicator of the person you are hiring.

[David_AVD]

I've certainly put resumes in the fail pile due to poor presentation, grammar, spelling and punctuation.

Sending documents in word format also bugs the hell out of me and loses points.  PDFs are pretty universal.

[SeanB]

Worse than Doc is sending as PDF that is only readable with Adobe reader, not any of the other PDF engines. Plain flat text does not need fields, form submit, embedded remote images, fancy non included and specialised fonts, and other tracking and cruft in it. Or something in docx format, when a lot of people use older versions of Office ( because it was paid for, and no need to upgrade for no real reason) or Libreoffice or OOffice, which sometimes has issues with the MS "interpretation" of what is a standard openxml definition.

Spellcheck at a minimum, using a localised dictionary ( no color or aluminum) for your country. TURN OFF AUTOCORRECT! That can and will mangle any document with anything other than plain 'Good morning how is the weather' into something that makes Chinglish look good.

As well, when it is an important document, when finished save it. Then proofread it, correct the glaring errors and save a V2 draft. Then have a 2 minute break, preferably away from the computer. go to the bathroom, have a wash and then go get something to drink and drink it ( preferably water) then come back with a new look and redo the proofread. Then save V3 and send this last draft.

I did this with this post, hopefully I did not make many mistakes.

[sergey]

Spelling in such an official documents are really important, and not just in the EE area. Here it is considered that if you can't concentrate and deliver good CV then you probably wouldn't be able to concentrate on the project you're working on and will make all sort of stupid mistakes.You simply can't be treat serious if you're screwing up official documents.

[Fred27]

I agree. A CV with spelling mistakes pretty much goes straight on the bin. It's not that I want someone with perfect spelling, I just want someone who will take care over something important. Get your mum to proof read it if you like, I don't care. Of you can't take the time to get this right you clearly don't take enough pride in your work.

(Sent from Tapatalk and typed in a tiny box, so might contain spelling mistakes.)

[tautech]

The theme of EEVblab#3 is quite correct, we all know how comunication skills generally have slipped but with your list of desired attributes you have or should have figured out which are of paramount importance. I doubt spelling is high on the list.
IMO grammatical correctness should be higher up the list and/or the ability to express oneself.

As their future employer it is only far and proper that you provide the tools to do a task as required.
Appropriate spell checking software must be accessable.

Unless their spelling is glaringly poor, you should focus back on your list of desirable skills.
Basic stuff is easily addressed with you setting expectations of improvement and/or assistance to do so.

Your view of this is only half the story, when an interview is finished and they have finally met you in person, had a look around and got a feel of your expectations, they may back out.
Are you prepared for that senario?

I envy you and I don't, appointment of staff is an exciting time, but the obvious can be easliy missed.

The best CV I have seen was set out in a timeline fashion and it demonstated the applicants on-going pursuit of qualifications throughout their career.
As he was to be appointed as a principal, it was important to have this influence of self-improvement impact on all the other staff.
The others that were involved in the process at the time just couldn't see that until it was pointed out.

Good luck.

BTW how do you get the posting spell-checker to work again as it once did?
Mine not working(can you tell?)
Somebody PM me please.

[tbscope]

It is strange that job applicants are judged on things that have almost nothing to do with their job. Writing skills, clothes, ..., while the most important aspects of their job are ignored.

Writing is important though, but are you looking for someone who can write well or someone who can do electronics well?
Even journalists and professional writers are being proofread before their texts are published, and they make mistakes too.

Furthermore, I hate first impressions.
I have some degree of autism. I do not make good first impressions. This ruins a lot of opportunities for me.
It is a pitty that "smooth talkers" can get their way into good jobs while maybe not having enough skills, while people who do have the skills get shown the door because they can't impress with words or appearance.

Hire the person with the right skills, not the person who seems to have the right skills. A portfolio should be infinitely more important than writing skills.

[SeanB]

(Sent from Tapatalk and typed in a tiny box, so might contain spelling mistakes.)

Small screen with tiny letters, big fingers and that annoying autocomplete ( which I turned off on the phone) though the one Nokia will not rotate the text screen at all though it does the other screens, are a pain.

I have sent many texts with spelling mistakes. 

[David_AVD]

Hire the person with the right skills, not the person who seems to have the right skills.

If you figure out a way to absolutely know a given applicant has the right skills let me know.   

[EEVblog]

It is strange that job applicants are judged on things that have almost nothing to do with their job. Writing skills, clothes, ..., while the most important aspects of their job are ignored.

Who said that?

Hire the person with the right skills, not the person who seems to have the right skills.

That's why you interview people. But the fact is you most often can't interview everyone.
You have to decide who to interview and who not to and that is decided by the resume and their cover letter.

[EEVblog]

Unless their spelling is glaringly poor, you should focus back on your list of desirable skills.

I think you missed the entire point of this, it's about a first impression, care, and attention to detail.
Most employers don't actually care if they spelled a word incorrectly, but it does potentially tell you something about the person.

Your view of this is only half the story, when an interview is finished and they have finally met you in person, had a look around and got a feel of your expectations, they may back out.
Are you prepared for that senario?

Of course.
But once again you are missing the point.
I can't interview everyone. Like it or not I have to chose who to interview based on their resume and cover letter and other info provided.
Spelling, grammar, resume format etc forms part of that judgement whether anyone likes it or not.
And yes, grammar is much more important than spelling.

[tbscope]

Hire the person with the right skills, not the person who seems to have the right skills.

If you figure out a way to absolutely know a given applicant has the right skills let me know.   

You can make an effort. For example interview the person, let him or her try for e few weeks or months, etc. I had to do this trial period for a year by the way and before I could start this trial period, I had to do a test.

There's also headhunting.

But no, you can't absolutely know.

[tboy]

A few years ago we posted for a job and got about 125 applicants.  At that time I thought that the format of the resume, the spelling and the content were all very important but now I am not so sure.  We live in an area with a large ethnic mix.  We interviewed a few people that had absolutely perfect resumes but they could barely speak English.  Obviously they paid someone to write their resumes for them.  We also found that a lot of foreign educations are not equivalent to our local education system.  So I don't trust resumes that much anymore.  The odd spelling mistake will at least indicate that it was likely written by the person applying.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It's not about the spelling, it's about the accuracy & attention to detail, which are essential attributes in engineering. If someone can't be bothered to get someone to proofread a short document, what else will they not be bothered about?

[tbscope]

It is strange that job applicants are judged on things that have almost nothing to do with their job. Writing skills, clothes, ..., while the most important aspects of their job are ignored.

Who said that?

You, several times. You dismiss someone who wrote the third word wrong, you dismiss someone who writes bachelor wrong.
Your wife is going to be doing the interviews with you, you can be sure that appearance will be a contributing factor.

And then you go on that you make the same mistakes, you go on twitter defending people who make these mistakes (reference to Rosetta scientist), yet you handle these applicants as non living things who can not possibly make any mistake at all otherwise they get dismissed.

If you dismiss someone right away for writing a word wrong, even if it is a glaring error, you might have the chance ending up with nobody or with someone who is only a fraction of someone else.

What if that person was exactly what you were looking for? You didn't give him or her any chance. You made your mind up on one word. That's stupid, especially if it only takes you a few minutes to read on. This makes you look lazy.

I do agree that making glaring spelling mistakes makes the applicant look uninterested. It means they probably didn't proofread their own resume, or let it proofread by someone else.

[sergey]

If you dismiss someone right away for writing a word wrong, even if it is a glaring error, you might have the chance ending up with nobody or with someone who is only a fraction of someone else.

I think Dave covered this in the video: under the same exact circumstances (same skills etc) he would first interview a person who've got better quality CV.

For example when you're just finishing uni there are loads and loads of people with nearly identical skills and at this point it's really all about showing you from all the best sides.

Also i didn't quite get the statement about laziness. Few extra minutes per each of 100s of applications (well, not in the case if Dave but in the case of applying for a big company which is what Dave was referring to i believe) costs you few hours extra. If the company would be able to find a suitable set of resumes to be continued with without investing those hours of time they'll for sure not invest them.

[SL4P]

... I hate first impressions.
I have some degree of autism. I do not make good first impressions. This ruins a lot of opportunities for me.
It is a pitty that "smooth talkers" can get their way into good jobs while maybe not having enough skills, while people who do have the skills get shown the door because they can't impress with words or appearance.

Hire the person with the right skills, not the person who seems to have the right skills. A portfolio should be infinitely more important than writing skills.

Absolutely agree 100%
Many opportunities are awarded on appearance or other 'glib value' assessments nowadays.
Not entirely ignoring skills, but the 'smooth talker'/shaved chest/ray-bans guy is often graded higher than the 'see what i have done /and/ can do' scale.
In some cases, when women are asked to apply, they are also profiled quite differently than the eage men in the group. (ignoring shaved chests).

[n45048]

I'm with Dave on this one. Your resume or CV should be proof-read several times before it sees the light of day. Mine's a growing document which has evolved over many years and not a single typo, yet I still check it before it's sent to anyone. Whilst someone might be brilliant in one area, basic spelling and grammar (or at the very least the ability to check and correct) is a sign of ones attention to detail (or lack thereof).

At the very least authors should be using spell check (it's not that hard to double-check any red underlined words).

Not everyone is going to be a wordsmith but at least get it right. If a report comes over my desk that reads like crap, it gets flicked back for correction immediately, especially since very high ranking members of Government organisations could be reading it. Granted mistakes do happen, but we should all be striving for quality, not sloppiness.

[EEVblog]

You, several times. You dismiss someone who wrote the third word wrong, you dismiss someone who writes bachelor wrong.

No, I did not say that I would dismiss that person based on that, you are the one who implied that.
All I'm saying that these things don't make you look impressive compared to the other applicants.

Your wife is going to be doing the interviews with you, you can be sure that appearance will be a contributing factor.

And then you go on that you make the same mistakes, you go on twitter defending people who make these mistakes (reference to Rosetta scientist), yet you handle these applicants as non living things who can not possibly make any mistake at all otherwise they get dismissed.

Nope, wrong again.

If you dismiss someone right away for writing a word wrong

I don't.

What if that person was exactly what you were looking for? You didn't give him or her any chance.

Not everyone can get an interview. The only thing I can base people on is their resume and cover letter.

You made your mind up on one word.

No, I did not.

I do agree that making glaring spelling mistakes makes the applicant look uninterested. It means they probably didn't proofread their own resume, or let it proofread by someone else.

Bingo.

[d3sbo]

he is right Engineers Can't Spell but it should of been proof read by someone else.

[HighVoltage]

I would contend, that especially engineers should spell correctly.

But this bad spelling seems to be a culture independent trend around the world.
Lately I have received letters from high end companies here in Germany with some huge
spelling mistakes. But it seems that these people are very well capable of spelling correctly,
they just did not bother to proof read at all, before sending it.

May be a bad trend of our time, when everything has to go faster and faster and when there is less time to think.
Unless we become aware of this trend, it might get much worse.

[EEVblog]

Wow, that thumbs down ratio, one of my biggest ever.
The amount of people who don't seem to understand the point in this video is quite staggering 

[SeanB]

Never underestimate the absolute value of human stupidity.

[max_torque]

Like everything in life, it is a compromise!

The most important factor is to carefully consider your audience, be that when you submit a CV, give a presentation, attempt to chat up your future wife or just attempt to impress your mates in the pub!

For example, if you are submitting a CV for a job that will attract hundreds, or even thousands of applicants, then your application must be 100% watertight.  If you give someone the slightest reason to file yours immediately under B1N they will, spelling mistakes or poor grammar included.

But, if you are applying for a position that has a very specific skill, that is difficult to find, or requires specific experience, then the assessor is much more likely to ignore language errors, and interview you anyway as there resource pool will be much smaller.

In my experience, good engineers are good at everything, including spelling when they need to be.  ;-)