13yo Invents a Better Hyperloop - It's still a STUPID IDEA

[Fungus]

Well... hyperloop isn't about fixing railways but creating a better alternative for transport over road because conventional just trains don't cut it. Especially when it comes to moving freight. In Europe the effective speed of a freight train is around 30km/h. The Dutch hyperloop firm Hardt is going to build a 3km long test track in the next couple of years and their first target is to transport freight quickly and efficiently.

As an (ex)member of a Spanish hyperloop team I can confirm that a lot of the talk behind the scenes was about how to avoid container ships having to enter the Mediterranean sea. If they could unload their containers in Spain and blast them onwards through a tube then those ships could turn around three or four days earlier. It would be a massive saving in shipping costs.

[EEVblog]

As an (ex)member of a Spanish hyperloop team I can confirm that a lot of the talk behind the scenes was about how to avoid container ships having to enter the Mediterranean sea. If they could unload their containers in Spain and blast them onwards through a tube then those ships could turn around three or four days earlier. It would be a massive saving in shipping costs.

Why on earth would that need Hyperloop?
Ships are slow as a wet week, any train or even tuck will beat it's pants.
What's the point having a container crawl across the ocean for weeks and then worry about a difference between a mythical 1000km/h Hyperloop or an existing reliable 100km/h freight train for the last leg?
At least the existing rail can handle bends.
Crazy stuff.

[EEVblog]

I think in this case no one can come around the corner and just solve the core of the problem, which is why the concept of hyperloop keeps being watered down more and more as a way to save some of the effort, as it can not scale, or in other words 50% of the vacuum/speed/efficiency/ROI/whatever will not beat the conventional way. Good solutions are usually no brainers, they are more efficient and therefore should be able to beat competition just by sheer existence without any magic ingredient.

The main issue is the Hype in Hyperloop.
Countless people and companies going nuts over this concept when no one has yet demonstrated any prototype that remotely practically useful. Yet everyone has timelines of completion in 2021, 2023 or whatever, it's sheer lunacy. All of these projects are 100% destined to fail due to practical implementation problems until they run out of cash.

[BravoV]

Yet everyone has timelines of completion in 2021, 2023 or whatever, it's sheer lunacy. All of these projects are 100% destined to fail due to practical implementation problems until they runaway with the cash and declare run out of cash.

There, minor correction, its new business model and its in. 

[nctnico]

As an (ex)member of a Spanish hyperloop team I can confirm that a lot of the talk behind the scenes was about how to avoid container ships having to enter the Mediterranean sea. If they could unload their containers in Spain and blast them onwards through a tube then those ships could turn around three or four days earlier. It would be a massive saving in shipping costs.

Why on earth would that need Hyperloop?

To make optimum use of a very expensive tunnel. Spain is kind of an island attached to Europe with a big mountain range in between. There is a higway at the east coast and at the west coast avoiding most of the mountains. Any transport in & out of Spain over land into the rest of Europe would have to use one of the these roads. Not saying a hyperloop is the best solution; it is about cost versus benefit.

[Fungus]

As an (ex)member of a Spanish hyperloop team I can confirm that a lot of the talk behind the scenes was about how to avoid container ships having to enter the Mediterranean sea. If they could unload their containers in Spain and blast them onwards through a tube then those ships could turn around three or four days earlier. It would be a massive saving in shipping costs.

Why on earth would that need Hyperloop?
Ships are slow as a wet week, any train or even tuck will beat it's pants.

You have to beat the ships both on speed and bandwidth, not just speed.

Hyperloop isn't just fast, it has the bandwidth to match. You can send containers down it as fast as they're coming off the ships (in theory).

You also need an awful lot of trucks to take one shipload of containers across Europe and trains have to share lines with passengers. Right now it's not economical to send them across land compared to letting the ship go to the final destination.

I'm not saying it'll ever work but that's the story they're telling investors.

[Fungus]

The main issue is the Hype in Hyperloop.

Yep. People are already forming companies based around it.

Our team went from a bunch of students dicking around with magnets to a separate company/spin-off at the University. They're now taking job applications for people to go and work there full time.

(should I apply...?  )

[EEVblog]

Our team went from a bunch of students dicking around with magnets to a separate company/spin-off at the University. They're now taking job applications for people to go and work there full time.
(should I apply...?  )

Sure, take their money. it'll look fine on your resume to the next average moron manager hiring at your next job. Just like working for uBeam.

[EEVblog]

As an (ex)member of a Spanish hyperloop team I can confirm that a lot of the talk behind the scenes was about how to avoid container ships having to enter the Mediterranean sea. If they could unload their containers in Spain and blast them onwards through a tube then those ships could turn around three or four days earlier. It would be a massive saving in shipping costs.

Why on earth would that need Hyperloop?
Ships are slow as a wet week, any train or even tuck will beat it's pants.

You have to beat the ships both on speed and bandwidth, not just speed.

Yes.

Hyperloop isn't just fast, it has the bandwidth to match. You can send containers down it as fast as they're coming off the ships (in theory).

How does it differ to a freight train in terms of capacity?

You also need an awful lot of trucks to take one shipload of containers across Europe and trains have to share lines with passengers.

Yes, my point was that if you are building a Hyperloop that requires it's own corridor, you could also build a normal (exclusive) rail corridor for much lower cost and vastly more reliable, just slower.
The problem with offloading to land is that you introduce two extra handling steps into the chain, and this is not a small thing, in fact it could be a dominate factor in time and throughput.

[Fungus]

Yes, my point was that if you are building a Hyperloop that requires it's own corridor, you could also build a normal (exclusive) rail corridor for much lower cost and vastly more reliable, just slower.
throughput.

No argument there, but hyperloop is sexy!

[EEVblog]

How does it differ to a freight train in terms of capacity?

A freight train has to come back again to pick up more containers.

So you just throw the shipping container into the hyperloop tube on it's own and they just pop out the other end?
Err, nope.

[Fungus]

So you just throw the shipping container into the hyperloop tube on it's own and they just pop out the other end?
Err, nope.

Sure, why not?

All that can be automated: I designed a gatling-gun style thing for loading containers into the main tube. It rotates around, the containers are loaded into the "barrels" for decompression, it fires them into the tube as they go past it.

[Fungus]

I'm not trying to convince anybody of current practicality or cost, I'm just saying that nothing about Hyperloop is in the realm of uBeam or Batteroo's "breaking the laws of physics" stupidity. You just have to give it a chance.

Have a look at SpaceX, they're advancing the tech at a ridiculous pace. Maybe the same could happen with Hyperloop, it certainly has a lot more practical applications.

The crazy part of Hyperloop is all the people/companies that are involved in it at the moment. How does that work?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Have a look at SpaceX, they're advancing the tech at a ridiculous pace.

Literally!

[EEVblog]

I'm not trying to convince anybody of current practicality or cost, I'm just saying that nothing about Hyperloop is in the realm of uBeam or Batteroo's "breaking the laws of physics" stupidity. You just have to give it a chance.

Neither of those were breaking the laws of physics, they were just impractical ideas fill with marketing hype. Hyperloop is very much in that same camp.
Any engineer worth with an ounce of common sense can see that a system that relies on a reduced pressure tube hundreds of km long for high speed human transport has impracticality written all over it.
Sure, do some preliminary investigation if you want, but right off the bat we got "this thing will revolutionise transport!, and it'll be ready in a few years" marketing BS.

The crazy part of Hyperloop is all the people/companies that are involved in it at the moment. How does that work?

Simple, investment money is real easy to get when you have a lot of hype and the likes of Elon Musk involved. The people behind this money do not not at the engineering details, they just hand over their money because of the marketing hype.

[ogden]

Simple, investment money is real easy to get when you have a lot of hype and the likes of Elon Musk involved.

Are you suggesting that Hyperloop is investment fraud similar to Zenneck Power LLC?

[SparkyFX]

I'm not trying to convince anybody of current practicality or cost, I'm just saying that nothing about Hyperloop is in the realm of uBeam or Batteroo's "breaking the laws of physics" stupidity. You just have to give it a chance.

The principle itself works in the form of pneumatic post since ages, but at that small scale (and it did not vanish without reason, things got stuck in there and required hell of maintenance as well).

I do not argue moving objects pneumatically, but it is just very questionable if it scales up to the size and distances presented, stays safe and such.
Then there are long term problems like dirt and spillages (e.g. from freight or defects, fluids used in the system). Probably not funny to clean the 1000km non-stop tube from inside. Or consider a small piece of debris (things wear out, things break) jammed between vehicle and tube would probably rip long sections of the tube open which will stop the show for a considerable amount of time. There is no redundancy of any sort.

If the revolutionary part is to e.g. use energy from renewable sources, well you need to compare apples to apples.

[ogden]

The principle itself works in the form of pneumatic post since ages, but at that small scale (and it did not vanish without reason, things got stuck in there and required hell of maintenance as well).

Pneumatic (post) tubes did not vanish. They are still used by hospitals, banks and shopping malls. Yes, it is "small scale", hospital campus at max, yet to say that things stuck and system requires hellova maintenance is BS.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

The crazy part of Hyperloop is all the people/companies that are involved in it at the moment. How does that work?

Good question! A spanish hype-loop-ish company: 32 million losses in 9 months. And they're all happy and smiling in the picture... How can it be?

[ogden]

32 million losses in 9 months. And they're all happy and smiling in the picture... How can it be?

Simple: during development there are no earnings/income so all expenses are accounted as loss.

[EEVblog]

Simple, investment money is real easy to get when you have a lot of hype and the likes of Elon Musk involved.

Are you suggesting that Hyperloop is investment fraud similar to Zenneck Power LLC?

What on earth gave you the impression I was suggesting fraud?
It's just basic pie-in-the-sky startup idea hype marketing, common as mud.
Even the Batteries 800% wasn't fraud because I'm sure you could find one crappy device it gave an 800% increase with.

[jonovid]

a moon Hotal by the yr 2000
personal flying cars by the yr 2010
full human body transplantations by the yr 2010
a global flood by 2012 if we did not change our light bulbs.
all the cars that would run on water but the technology is somehow hidden in area 51. 
in 1986 peter brock polariser that made  Holden's cars win races.
The Multifunction Polis (MFP) in Australia proposed in 1987 and abandoned in 1998
they come and they go, so why would Hyperloop be any different   

a Multifunction Polis

[ogden]

What on earth gave you the impression I was suggesting fraud?
It's just basic pie-in-the-sky startup idea hype marketing, common as mud.

Ok,ok Just wanted to stir conversation. I had feeling you are implying that their aim is to "get investment money" so it can be funneled out into gigantic management salaries and contracts with own "service companies" knowing that chances to achieve goal are very close to zero. BTW I believe that complexity and challenges are so huge than chances indeed are close to zero.

[Fungus]

It's just basic pie-in-the-sky startup idea hype marketing, common as mud.
Even the Batteries 800% wasn't fraud because I'm sure you could find one crappy device it gave an 800% increase with.

Not to mention all those abdominal exercise gadgets on TV, etc.

[Brumby]

We need minds that want to explore and think outside the box - but they need to be brought into the situation where they are motivated to try.  The details aren't relevant up front, the interest is - and critically so.

In a factual way. Teaching kids the "fake it till you make it"/"high risk, high gain" methods will not solve problems, it will waste resources better spent elsewhere.

I do not disagree with any of your comments - but you have taken things further than was the scope of my post.

My primary observation was to the value of the reporting of this event by CNN as a mechanism to spark interest in youngsters so they get into STEM career paths.  Any consideration of the crappiness of an idea isn't overly relevant for that objective.

The secondary element was to set us "old fogies" back in our box a little.  Yes, there are a number of facts about physics that will control the course of development of various ideas - but to claim we know everything about physics is simply arrogant.  In truth our "old ways" of thinking are sometimes exactly what stops us from making progress.  New blood, new thinking, new attitudes are necessary.

If somebody wants to head off into a quest for some pie-in-the-sky objective (especially if they've got a fresh approach) then I'm happy for them to pursue it - and this applies to a whole lot of other "bad ideas" - IMHO.  While they may suck inordinate amounts of money chasing impossible goals, I would want them to travel the road of exploration so that the foolishness can be relegated to the lessons of the past once it has been completely explored.

Know when to call it is the problem.


Besides, one could look at all this Hyperloop hype as an example of brainstorming - one that has escaped the room rather dramatically - but it may give rise to other crazy, impractical ideas that might lead to something truly revolutionary.

Yeah ... well ...  call me an optimist, a dreamer  (just don't call me late for dinner  )