What is a digital system? Is it only binary or decimal, octal as well?

[radiolistener]

The Dekatron is not merely a display device (such as the Nixie tube), but each of the ten digital discrete states has an electrical output.

yes, this is what I'm talking about, and all of these outputs are binary signals they output unitary code representing decimal value.

The same as 74HC4017...

I don't see here decimal signal with 10 discrete levels. All signals are binary.

[radiolistener]

Hi level from the Adruino (5V) will not work. So the GPIO output of the Adruino is not a digital signal.

No. If you read careful what I wrote before, digital signals have different logic level standard. If you want to connect digital signal from one circuit to another, you're needs to make sure that they have the same logic level standard. If they have different standard (as in your case) you're needs to use level shifter to convert from one standard to another. But if it uses 2 discrete levels, it is digital.

For analog signal you cannot convert level standard, because it uses more than 2 discrete levels and incompatible with digital signals.

[TimFox]

More recent history:  Japan has a long tradition of using the "soroban" abacus for arithmetic.
The usual format has one bead above the bar and four below it to represent the decimal digits (a phrase that seems to annoy some people) 0 to 9.
When I first visited Japan in 1982, it was common when paying at a small vendor's shop to see him add up the tab (very quickly) on a (decimal) soroban mounted above the electrical cash register (another decimal computation object), then enter the soroban's result into the cash register to keep the daily tally.
There was a famous competition in 1946, sponsored by Stars and Stripes during the American occupation, between a virtuoso soroban user from the Japanese Post Office and an expert from MacArthur's accounting department on an electrical calculator.
Addition, subtraction, and division were won by the Japanese competitor, while the American won multiplication.
Since 1980 or so, Japanese education in soroban use has diminished.
One of my Japanese colleagues remembered that he was taught how to extract a square root on a soroban in elementary school, but admitted that he had forgotten the algorithm since then.
The National Cash Register Co. (Now, NCR inc) patented the wheel-inside-a-wheel method of non-binary decimal digital computation before 1900, and kept that as their logo for years.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_694235

[tggzzz]

One of my Japanese colleagues remembered that he was taught how to extract a square root on a soroban in elementary school, but admitted that he had forgotten the algorithm since then.

Here's a video showing how to calculate square roots on a western digital decimal calculator. The section on square roots starts at 20:00 and is a little, shall we say, tedious.

[TimFox]

I once used a motor-driven high-end electromechanical calculator for the same purpose:  it was fun to watch.
In 1970, there was a room next to my undergraduate physics labs with calculators for student use:  it contained fully electronic units from Wang, along with electromechanical devices from Friden.
It was updated shortly thereafter.

Life is more interesting when one removes ones blinders.

[xrunner]

The OP hasn't chimed in, looks like they're long gone. Probably gave up and went to ChatGPT for the answer. 

[IanB]

This is what I'm talking about from beginning. The digital circuit uses binary signals, if circuit uses non binary signal (signal that has more than 2 discrete levels), then this is not digital system, but analog one.

Nonsense! In early computers, people experimented with tri-state logic, and these were still digital computers.

The word "digital" comes by analogy with fingers, which are digits. When you count on your fingers you have distinct, integer values (1, 2, 3, etc.).

I think a lot of confusion arises because the title of the thread contains a misunderstanding.

The two domains are discrete and continuous. The continuous domain is synonymous with the analog domain.

The discrete domain is characterized by values having fixed values with intervals between them. The design calculations involve Boolean or integer mathematics, or branches thereof, such as Z-transforms. An electronic digital computer is a special case of a discrete logic system.

The continuous domain is characterized by values being continuously variable, with no fixed values. The design calculations involve the reals and related branches of mathematics such as Fourier transforms.

[tggzzz]

I once used a motor-driven high-end electromechanical calculator for the same purpose:  it was fun to watch.
In 1970, there was a room next to my undergraduate physics labs with calculators for student use:  it contained fully electronic units from Wang, along with electromechanical devices from Friden.
It was updated shortly thereafter.

My father used one in the 60s, later upgrading it to a something the size and weight of 2 bricks with 7-segment panaplex displays, followed by an HP85. He tended to dislike computers, because he saw too many people number crunching without having a feel for the physics. But in the early 80s he did assess how a PWR might react after a catastrophic failure, by comparing it to how water flows out of a bathtub.

I started on slide rule, then Sinclair Scientific, then an HP35 bolted to a desk in the university library. I still have the slide rule and (working) Sinclair Scientific, and have acquired a (working) HP35 and two (gulp) slide rules with 50ft long scales. The latter were in production for 94 years, and unsurprisingly continue to work.

Life is more interesting when one removes ones blinders.

Precisely. Hence my .sig

[tggzzz]

This is what I'm talking about from beginning. The digital circuit uses binary signals, if circuit uses non binary signal (signal that has more than 2 discrete levels), then this is not digital system, but analog one.

Nonsense! In early computers, people experimented with tri-state logic, and these were still digital computers.

The word "digital" comes by analogy with fingers, which are digits. When you count on your fingers you have distinct, integer values (1, 2, 3, etc.).

I think a lot of confusion arises because the title of the thread contains a misunderstanding.

The two domains are discrete and continuous. The continuous domain is synonymous with the analog domain.

The discrete domain is characterized by values having fixed values with intervals between them. The design calculations involve Boolean or integer mathematics, or branches thereof, such as Z-transforms. An electronic digital computer is a special case of a discrete logic system.

The continuous domain is characterized by values being continuously variable, with no fixed values. The design calculations involve the reals and related branches of mathematics such as Fourier transforms.

Prepare to flatten your forehead

[Tation]

Ternary digital computer: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-642-22816-2_10.pdf (yes, they call it a «ternary digital computer»)

Donald Knuth also discusses the ternary system on vol. 2 of The Art of Computer Programming (in my 3rd ed., it is on pages 207-208).

[TimFox]

The two domains are discrete and continuous. The continuous domain is synonymous with the analog domain.

The discrete domain is characterized by values having fixed values with intervals between them. The design calculations involve Boolean or integer mathematics, or branches thereof, such as Z-transforms. An electronic digital computer is a special case of a discrete logic system.

The continuous domain is characterized by values being continuously variable, with no fixed values. The design calculations involve the reals and related branches of mathematics such as Fourier transforms.

In early mathematics (e.g., Pythagoras and Euclid), these two domains were treated as geometry (continuous domain) and arithmetic (discrete domain).
Advances were made in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, India, China, and Arabia before Europe took up mathematics seriously.

[TimFox]

Ternary digital computer: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-642-22816-2_10.pdf (yes, they call it a «ternary digital computer»)

Donald Knuth also discusses the ternary system on vol. 2 of The Art of Computer Programming (in my 3rd ed., it is on pages 207-208).

From the Tation link:

"The common binary code used in modern computers has the digit set {0, 1}.
Binary code does not contain arithmetical full value, as it is impossible to represent
the negative numbers in it. However, a ternary code with a digit set {–1, 0, 1}
provides optimal arithmetical values for numbers formation. Therefore, we not only
an artificial and imperfect complement code of numbers, but we also obtain
considerable arithmetical advantages. These include a uniform number code, a
variable length of operands, a singular shift operation, a tri-value of a function’s “sign
of a number”, an optimal rounding by simply cutting off lower digits, and a
compensation of errors rounding in the process of calculating."

Note the discussion of two different digit sets (binary and ternary) in a digital system.

[TimFox]

The Dekatron is not merely a display device (such as the Nixie tube), but each of the ten digital discrete states has an electrical output.

yes, this is what I'm talking about, and all of these outputs are binary signals they output unitary code representing decimal value.

The same as 74HC4017...

I don't see here decimal signal with 10 discrete levels. All signals are binary.

The Dekatron has ten discrete digital states, transitions between them do not involve binary representations in the internal function.
With the 74LS4017 and its kin, the internal function does depend on binary representations.
Equivalent results do not imply identical internal function.
Consider a stepper motor driving a gear set to a pointer that shows discrete steps (not continuous), as in a modern quartz watch:  no binary bits are involved in the incrementing of the pointer as it jerks along.

There are more objects in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your binary arithmetic.

[tooki]

@tooki, if you're think that there is exists digital circuit and computers which working with signals that has 10 or 16 discrete level (or any other more than 2), there is no needs to propose to read books. Just provide example of such circuit.

Can you give me example of such digital logic elements? For example AND element which supports non binary input? Please provide example with datasheet...

If you don't have such example, then there is no sense to talking that it is exists... isn't it?

It’s frustrating that you’re either unable or unwilling to read properly: in the reply you’re responding to, I clearly said that “except for memory and telecommunications”, I am unaware of any non-binary digital logic.

You’re not even alone in considering QAM and the like to be analog, according to the wiki article about modulation. With that said, I strongly suspect that’s a minority opinion.

As for your accusation that we’ve been manipulating the Wikipedia articles to support our claims: you know that you can view the entire history of any Wikipedia article, so you can easily check what the article looked like before this thread ever began.

[golden_labels]

i love to see threads derailing  loll

The worst part is that now this garbage spams my “new replies” list. And there is no way to “unsubscribe”, other than bothering moderators to remove my own posts from the thread. :/

[tggzzz]

i love to see threads derailing  loll

The worst part is that now this garbage spams my “new replies” list. And there is no way to “unsubscribe”, other than bothering moderators to remove my own posts from the thread. :/

Actually, there is Look at the far right column of your unread replies list. To un-ignore, your profile -> modify profile -> ignore topics options.

IMHO it would be more useful to have an "ignore any topic started by user X", e.g. the user that has had three profiles here and whose name begins with f

[Tation]

Examples of ternary logics (comparison against Boolean logic is left as an exercise to the student):
Kleene's logic: https://www.logic.at/multlog/kleene.pdf

Priest's logic: https://www.logic.at/multlog/paradox.pdf

An a many-valued (also infinite-valued) logic, the Łukasiewicz-Tarski logic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ukasiewicz_logic

Sorry, not easy reads...

[radiolistener]

a video showing how to calculate square roots on a western digital decimal calculator

it is not digital. You're confusing decimal with digital... 

[radiolistener]

The Dekatron has ten discrete digital states, transitions between them do not involve binary representations in the internal function.
With the 74LS4017 and its kin, the internal function does depend on binary representations.
Equivalent results do not imply identical internal function.

since it don't expose it on public interface, internal implementation doesn't matters here, the main point here is that both using the same binary signals for output decimal digit in one-hot encoding. And both have 10 states.

[radiolistener]

Nonsense! In early computers, people experimented with tri-state logic, and these were still digital computers.

tri-state is usual binary signal which has third state which means that signal is missing or undefined. But third state don't have third voltage level, it still uses 2 discrete level 0 and 1, but it also can be switched to third state where signal output is disabled.

Probably you wanted to say "experimented with ternary logic, and these were still digital computers."

Yes, this is true, there was experimental computers with ternary logic. And yes, these ternary computers were digital.
But they were digital not because ternary signals are digital, but because they actually was implemented as usual digital circuit with usual binary signals.

They emulated ternary logic on digital circuit by using two binary signals to emulate one ternary signal. It was done with the following encoding:

digital binary signals = ternary signal
00 = 0
01 = 1
10 = 2
11 = not used state (not allowed).

[radiolistener]

You’re not even alone in considering QAM and the like to be analog, according to the wiki article about modulation. With that said, I strongly suspect that’s a minority opinion.

No, this is not opinion, this is just a knowledge of QAM signal and their properties...

Only people who don't know what is the signal modulation and how to properly implement it, can say that it can be "digital". The people who knows it very well cannot say that.

If some signal carries digital data, it don't means that this signal is digital, it just means that it carries digital data and nothing more.

[tggzzz]

a video showing how to calculate square roots on a western digital decimal calculator

it is not digital. You're confusing decimal with digital... 

That makes it unambiguous that you are trolling.

[radiolistener]

That makes it unambiguous that you are trolling.

The only troll here is people who posting mechanical calculator and talking that this is an example of digital system. 

[tggzzz]

The Dekatron has ten discrete digital states, transitions between them do not involve binary representations in the internal function.
With the 74LS4017 and its kin, the internal function does depend on binary representations.
Equivalent results do not imply identical internal function.

since it don't expose it on public interface, internal implementation doesn't matters here, the main point here is that both using the same binary signals for output decimal digit in one-hot encoding. And both have 10 states.

You contradict yourself, repeatedly.

If "internal implementation doesn't matters here" (which is sensible), then you cannot also use a different internal implementation (a 74hc107) to attempt to counter many people's points.

Well, in reality you can, but I'll leave others to assess your intentions.

You seem not to be aware of the the LLM phenomenon of "hallucination"?

I know, but I don't see any indication that what it said is false.
I added picture above from wiki with example of dekatron cyclogram and it shows that it is controlled with binary signals. Isn't it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dekatron can be replaced with 74HC4017. Isn't it?

So there is no any magic and no non binary signals, dekatron is classic digital counter with binary signals...

No, the dekatron is decimal, with discrete values rencoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc.

omg 

74HC4017 with ten LED's placed in circle also "is decimal, with discrete values rencoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc."

Decimal here is just a conditional meaning of information displayed by LED's, but circuit works with binary signals and classified as digital. 

[tggzzz]

That makes it unambiguous that you are trolling.

The only troll here is people who posting mechanical calculator and talking that this is an example of digital system. 

Some mechanical calculators are analogue. The example in the video is clearly digital, not analogue.