What is a digital system? Is it only binary or decimal, octal as well?

[tggzzz]

So, I don't see that chat-gpt was wrong when he said that Harwell Dekatron (WITCH) works with binary signals with discrete 1 and 0.

And I don't see here any usage for signal with 10 discrete levels. Dekatron don't use it. It uses classic binary signals. This is classic digital circuit.

A digital signal does not have to be encoded in discrete levels. Obvious alternative encodings are frequency (FSK), phase (PSK).

In the case of dekatrons, angle is used. Uniquely for an electronic device you can literally see each of the ten states encoded as a different discrete/quantised angle.

Here are my dekatrons showing the number 13 encoded in angles...



And here's another angle encoding (of the number 28), in an electromechanical device mounted next to those dekatrons...



And here's an example of a "digitally controlled" mechanical device that encodes digital numbers as angles...

[wasedadoc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dekatron can be replaced with 74HC4017. Isn't it?

So there is no any magic and no non binary signals, dekatron is classic digital counter with binary signals...

You are wrong because you totally missed the point.  You can emulate the function of the dekatron with a 4 stage binary counter plus some gates to make it loop every 10 cycles but the internal workings are completely different.  The operation of the dekatron is more like the mechanical odometer in a car.  Each wheel, with the markings 0 to 9 on it rim, rotating one position when nudged by the wheel to its right moving from 9 to 0. No binary/boolean anything involved.

Claiming that the dekatron based computer was binary becasue you can replace the dekatron by a 74HC107 is the equivalent of saying that since you can replace the internal combustion engine in a car by electric motor(s), then the internal combustion engine is an electrical engine.

[radiolistener]

My cup of popcorn is almost empty. Perhaps it’s time to stop? Any attempt to discuss the topic only gives them an excuse to post more sophisms and increase the volume of incorrect information in the thread. A random reader is more likely to find their post instead of anything of value posted earlier and it gets even worse with each response.

yes, tggzzz often posting a lot of sophisms and constantly uses dishonest methods of discussion, such as turning the discussion to personalities and trying to attribute to me something that I did not say and even rejected. But I just ignore it. I am interested in the reasons for his delusions. Moreover, as it turned out, such misconceptions are not only found among him.

As you can see topic starter also have the same misconceptions he confuse digital/analog system category with base of number system. Which is different things. And as you can see even more serious users here have confusion in this question. From my point of view these things are pretty clear, so I even don't understand why such misconceptions happens at all. And this is interesting to find the reasons for these misconceptions.

I suppose that the main point of misconception is that many peoples are confusing signals in electronic circuit with information which is carried by this signal. So, when they hear that signal carries information about decimal number, they are think that this signal has 10 discrete levels. This is incorrect.

In digital circuit information about numbers is encoded as a set of binary signals. The encoding method can be different, for example usual binary form, or BCD, or thermometer code, or something else.

It's important to note here that number system base (binary, decimal, hexadecimal) don't matters here. It will have sense when you want to display that number to the user. In order to display it, you're needs to format it according to a number system base expected by user. But this is separate task for displaying and it don't affect the way how this number is stored and transferred in the system.

For example, the number is stored and transferred in the system in binary form, but when it needs to be displayed for a user it can be formatted in binary or decimal or hexadecimal format depends on user preference.

[tggzzz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dekatron can be replaced with 74HC4017. Isn't it?

So there is no any magic and no non binary signals, dekatron is classic digital counter with binary signals...

You are wrong because you totally missed the point.  You can emulate the function of the dekatron with a 4 stage binary counter plus some gates to make it loop every 10 cycles but the internal workings are completely different.  The operation of the dekatron is more like the mechanical odometer in a car.  Each wheel, with the markings 0 to 9 on it rim, rotating one position when nudged by the wheel to its right moving from 9 to 0. No binary/boolean anything involved.

Claiming that the dekatron based computer was binary becasue you can replace the dekatron by a 74HC107 is the equivalent of saying that since you can replace the internal combustion engine in a car by electric motor(s), then the internal combustion engine is an electrical engine.

Nicely put, and an valid analogy that ought to be enlightening.

[coromonadalix]

 

i love to see threads derailing  loll

[radiolistener]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dekatron can be replaced with 74HC4017. Isn't it?

So there is no any magic and no non binary signals, dekatron is classic digital counter with binary signals...

You are wrong because you totally missed the point.  You can emulate the function of the dekatron with a 4 stage binary counter plus some gates to make it loop every 10 cycles but the internal workings are completely different.  The operation of the dekatron is more like the mechanical odometer in a car.  Each wheel, with the markings 0 to 9 on it rim, rotating one position when nudged by the wheel to its right moving from 9 to 0.

yes, this is exactly the same what you get if you replace dekatron with 74HC4017 and a ten LED's placed in a circle loop.
And this is what I mean when asked if this is correct that you can replace dekatron with digital counter like 74HC4017.

So, I don't understand why you're talking that I was "wrong and totally missed the point" 

No binary/boolean anything involved.

Control signals for dekatron and dekatron outputs are binary signals (signals that has two discrete level 1 or 0). The same as for 74HC4017, isn't it?

Claiming that the dekatron based computer was binary becasue you can replace the dekatron by a 74HC107 is the equivalent of saying that since you can replace the internal combustion engine in a car by electric motor(s), then the internal combustion engine is an electrical engine.

I talked about 74HC4017, not about 74HC107.

I claimed that dekatron based computer is digital, because it uses binary signals (signal which has two discrete level 1 and 0). And as I see this it thuth isn't it?

I don't understand your analogy with combustion/electric motor. It don't have sense here and looks like non relevant at all.

Dekatron based computer uses the same digital signals as 74HC4017, difference is just voltage level (which can be fixed with level shifter if you want to replace dekatron with 74HC4017), but both using the same signals with two discrete value 1 and 0. Isn't it?

As you can see, original claim of tggzzz, that dekatron computer uses decimal signals (signals with 10 discrete levels) is completely invalid.
Dekatron computer uses binary signals and this is the reason why it can be classified as digital circuit.

So, dekatron computer cannot be example of digital circuit which works with decimal signals (signal with 10 discrete levels) as it was mentioned by tggzzz, because this is digital circuit which works with binary signals


I’ll just remind you that the dispute about dekatron computer flared up when tggzzz mentioned it as example of digital circuit which works with non binary signals (signal which has more than 2 discrete level).

[tggzzz]

I claimed that dekatron based computer is digital, because it uses binary signals (signal which has two discrete level 1 and 0). And as I see this it thuth isn't it?

No, the dekatron is decimal, with discrete values encoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc.



The rest of your response is merely wryly amusing.

[wasedadoc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dekatron can be replaced with 74HC4017. Isn't it?

So there is no any magic and no non binary signals, dekatron is classic digital counter with binary signals...

You are wrong because you totally missed the point.  You can emulate the function of the dekatron with a 4 stage binary counter plus some gates to make it loop every 10 cycles but the internal workings are completely different.  The operation of the dekatron is more like the mechanical odometer in a car.  Each wheel, with the markings 0 to 9 on it rim, rotating one position when nudged by the wheel to its right moving from 9 to 0.

yes, this is exactly the same what you get if you replace dekatron with 74HC4017 and a ten LED's placed in a circle loop.
And this is what I mean when asked if this is correct that you can replace dekatron with digital counter like 74HC4017.

So, I don't understand why you're talking that I was "wrong and totally missed the point" 

No binary/boolean anything involved.

Control signals for dekatron and dekatron outputs are binary signals (signals that has two discrete level 1 or 0). The same as for 74HC4017, isn't it?

Claiming that the dekatron based computer was binary becasue you can replace the dekatron by a 74HC107 is the equivalent of saying that since you can replace the internal combustion engine in a car by electric motor(s), then the internal combustion engine is an electrical engine.

I claimed that dekatron based computer is digital, because it uses binary signals (signal which has two discrete level 1 and 0). And as I see this it thuth isn't it?

I don't understand your analogy with combustion/electric motor. It don't have sense here and looks like non relevant at all.

Dekatron based computer uses the same digital signals as 74HC107, difference is just voltage level (which can be fixed with level shifter if you want to replace dekatron with 74HC107), but both using the same signals with two discrete value 1 and 0. Isn't it?

As you can see, original claim of tggzzz, that dekatron computer uses decimal signals (signals with 10 discrete levels) is completely invalid.
Dekatron computer uses binary signals and this is the reason why it can be classified as digital circuit.

So, dekatron computer cannot be example of digital circuit which works with decimal signals (signal with 10 discrete levels) as it was mentioned by tggzzz, because this is digital circuit which works with binary signals

Again you totally missed the point.

The dekatron based computer does its calculations and stores the numbers using one of the 10 possible positions of the discharge in a dekatron.  No binary counters.  Decimal  and digital.

[radiolistener]

No, the dekatron is decimal, with discrete values rencoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc.

omg 

74HC4017 with ten LED's placed in circle also "is decimal, with discrete values rencoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc."

Decimal here is just a conditional meaning of information displayed by LED's, but circuit works with binary signals and classified as digital. 

[wasedadoc]

Mother watching the passing out parade at the military academy turns to the woman beside her and says "They are all marching out of step except my son".

[tggzzz]

I’ll just remind you that the dispute about dekatron computer flared up when tggzzz mentioned it as example of digital circuit which works with non binary signals (signal which has more than 2 discrete level).

Wrong attribution, control signals do not define whether or not a device is digital or analogue, and angle is used to encode the data (not a level).

[tggzzz]

Mother watching the passing out parade at the military academy turns to the woman beside her and says "They are all marching out of step except my son".

Touché, again

I've taken the liberty of emphasising your point.

[tggzzz]

No, the dekatron is decimal, with discrete values rencoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc.

omg 

74HC4017 with ten LED's placed in circle also "is decimal, with discrete values rencoded as around roughly 0degrees, 36degrees, 72degrees, 108degrees etc."

A 4017 is not a dekatron, oddly enough. Neither is an electric motor an internal combustion engine.

We realise that you cannot understand wasedadoc's analogy and its relevance.

[radiolistener]

The dekatron based computer does its calculations and stores the numbers using one of the 10 possible positions of the discharge in a dekatron.  No binary counters.  Decimal  and digital.

The same thing can be done with classic digital decimal counter or with binary counter and circuit with reset the counter when it count from 9 to 10.

But you're missed the main point. The point here is that it uses binary signals, that is, a signal that has two discrete levels 0 and 1. This is classic digital circuit which uses binary signals.

It don't use "decimal signal" with 10 discrete levels: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.

But tggzzz mentioned dekatron as an example of digital device which uses such decimal signal with 10 discrete levels: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. Which is incorrect.

[radiolistener]

I’ll just remind you that the dispute about dekatron computer flared up when tggzzz mentioned it as example of digital circuit which works with non binary signals (signal which has more than 2 discrete level).

Wrong attribution, control signals do not define whether or not a device is digital or analogue, and angle is used to encode the data (not a level).

The angle is just a conditional format for displaying a number and don't affect system categorization. You can display data in any format it doesn't matter. For example you can show angle on digital display or on analog voltmeter. The format of data displayed to the user doesn't matters. The main point here is how data is stored and transferred in the system.

The number itself is stored as 10 binary signals here, each signal can have two possible value: on and off (1 and 0). And it is controlled with binary signals. All signals are binary (digital signal, logic signal to be clear). And this is why such system can be categorized as digital.

This is what I'm talking about from beginning. The digital circuit uses binary signals, if circuit uses non binary signal (signal that has more than 2 discrete levels), then this is not digital system, but analog one.

[radiolistener]

Mother watching the passing out parade at the military academy turns to the woman beside her and says "They are all marching out of step except my son".

If several people have a common misconception, this does not make their opinion correct.
If you want to get correct opinion you're needs to analyze facts and don't count the number of peoples with some opinion.

The crowd is always stupid and always making wrong decision. This has been confirmed by many centuries of history.
It can be easily be proven, since smart peoples are rare and stupid people are frequent. So the crowd in average is stupid...

And such knowledge can be utilized, if your opinion is the same as crowds opinion, there is a sense to check your opinion more precisely, because this is a strong indication that your opinion is possible incorrect...

[radiolistener]

A 4017 is not a dekatron, oddly enough. Neither is an electric motor an internal combustion engine.

We realise that you cannot understand wasedadoc's analogy and its relevance.

if your mind is unable to detect similarity between dekatron and digital counter, then I understand why you're think that wasedadoc's analogy is relevant.

[radiolistener]

Regarding to the question if signal is digital or not, there is a simple and easy sanity check.

If you're thinking that some signal is digital, just check if you can process it with some digital GPIO input with no loss. If this is not possible, then signal is not digital but analog.

[tggzzz]

A 4017 is not a dekatron, oddly enough. Neither is an electric motor an internal combustion engine.

We realise that you cannot understand wasedadoc's analogy and its relevance.

if your mind is unable to detect similarity between dekatron and digital counter, then I understand why you're think that wasedadoc's analogy is relevant.

The dekatron is a digital counter.

If you are unable to detect the difference between a dekatron and a binary counter, then...

[TimFox]

The Dekatron is not merely a display device (such as the Nixie tube), but each of the ten digital discrete states has an electrical output.

[madires]

I'm wondering what is a digital system? Is it only binary? Or decimal, octal, hexa are also digital system?

In this case it's a math related question, not electronics. What the author of the PDF means by 'digital system' is the representation of numbers in the form of a row of digits (numerals). The number system doesn't matter at all. It's only about the way of writing (and reading) a number.

In electronics the term 'digital system' means something completely different, i.e. a circuit/device which uses non-continuous signal levels. Many associate that with binary states (0 and 1, or low and high), but it can also involve more states/levels, e.g. tri-state (low, high and HiZ).

[wasedadoc]

It is easy to demonstrate that a dekatron is not a binary device and does not use binary counting.

In the 74HC4017 there are circuit elements which are in one state when the count is 0 or 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 and in a different state when the count is 1 or 3 or 5 or 7 or 9.

There are other circuit elements which are in one state when the count is 0 or 1 or 4 or 5 or 8 or 9 and in a different state when the count is 2 or 3 or 6 or 7.

There are other circuit elements which are in one state when the count is 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 or 8 or 9 and in a different state when the count is 4 or 5 or 6 or 7.

There are other circuit elements which are in one state when the count is 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 and in a different state when the count is 8 or 9.

But in the dekatron there are 10 circuit elements. Each one of them is in one state for 9 of the 10 counts.  Each one of them is only in its other state for 1 of the 10 counts.  For example one part of the dekatron is in one state (not glowing) when the count is 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 and in another state (glowing) when the count is 0.  Another part is one state when the count is 0 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 and in another state when the count is 1.  Etc.

The dekatron counts by moving the glow from one to the next.  Similar to the odometer turning a wheel by 36 degrees.  The dekatron is not just an indicating device.  It does not indicate the state of 4 groups of circuit elements.  There are no 4 groups in it or in its support circuitry.

[khs]

If you're thinking that some signal is digital, just check if you can process it with some digital GPIO input with no loss. If this is not possible, then signal is not digital but analog.

OK, let's make a simple test.

I use a GPIO pin from an Adruino and connect it to an input of a MC660L
MC660L is a MHTL device with 15 V logic. Max low voltage of a MC660L is 6.5 V.

Hi level from the Adruino (5V) will not work. So the GPIO output of the Adruino is not a digital signal.

If I connect the output of the MC660L to the Adruino, the Adruino is no longer a digital device.

[radiolistener]

The dekatron is a digital counter.

If you are unable to detect the difference between a dekatron and a binary counter, then...

Can you please show me, where I said that dekatron is binary counter?
I said that dekatron works with binary signals.
Do you understand difference between binary signal and binary counter?

[TimFox]

For readers interested in the history of calculators and computing, including mechanical, electromechanical, and electronic, once again I recommend a recent book:
K Houston, Empire of the Sum:  The rise and reign of the pocket calculator, Norton 2023.
Especially, see chapters 4-6 about digital mechanical devices, which typically were decimal rather than binary in construction and interface.
Later chapters concentrate on electronic devices, including an important British product, the Amita, which used a combination of a Dekatron, thyratrons, and Nixie tubes in a package reminiscent of the electromechanical comptometers that preceded it.
The book does not cover mainframes, etc., but concentrates on calculators.
For the history of digital representation of numbers, the standard reference is U C Merzbach and C B Boyer, A History of Mathematics, 3rd ed, Wiley 2011.
Both books are free of claptrap.