what an oscilloscope recommended for a woman passionate about electronics?

[Adruna]

Hi CharlotteSwiss,

fellow compatriot here!

The Siglent SDS1202X-E is currently in promotion at Batronix and might be closer to your budget (only 2CH though):

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1202X-E.html

Regarding the shop, beware that other european shops may not include a swiss power cord like batronix does, so you might need to salvage one elsewhere ; )

[John B]

Don't base your purchase on your technical ability, better to ask yourself how much you are willing to save and spend on a scope.

I'd recommend getting something more up to date than a DS1054, but if you're only willing to spend on a DS1054z, then get it and enjoy it and learn away.

[CharlotteSwiss]

how nice after a day's work, relax in bed and think my next oscilloscope 
thank you all, you are very kind
-benta: yhe analog crt oscilloscope is very charming, but for this time I would like to go digital
-catalinawow: first I take the oscilloscope, but then I will buy signal generator (is in the wish list)
-rstofer: thanks for istructive link. In fact I am undecided between ds1054 4 channel and ds 1202 2 channel but 200mhz 
 I appreciate the advice on acquiring a used device, but I usually buy new material 
-retrolefty: in fact I would like to buy the entry level oscilloscope (but of good brand)
-ejeffrey: I see that you recommend more channels than band. I don't know if in my simple repairs is better 2 channel but 200mhz, or only 100mhz but 4 channel; I don't make circuits, I only repair faults. now I only use the multimeter, but I would love to find faults even using an oscilloscope.
-james-s: quiet that at most I can aspire to 200 mhz max... useless for a beginner to go further. (yes, i know than for the 1054 50mhh>100mhz..)
-adrian: thanks for contribute (for signal generator I'll think about it later) ;-)
-electrofun: I initially entered here thinking of only two models, rigol 1052 and 1202z-e... now, after so many tips, I'm almost willing to spend more for buy 1054z...
Siglent 1104 is good, but it costs too much for me
-Adruna: thanks for advice: Siglent SDS1202X-E 200mhz 2 channel, competitor of the rigol ds1202 (the rigol 1202 is not very popular here on the forum..)
-JohnB: I share your opinion, but as a first oscilloscope I would not want to spend too much (but I do not give up a good brand)

Charlotte 
 

[tggzzz]

Don't forget to consider any other things that you might want/need to spend your money on.

Realise that if you need an HV isolated probe for safety, it will cost as much as a cheap scope.

[CharlotteSwiss]

Don't forget to consider any other things that you might want/need to spend your money on.

Realise that if you need an HV isolated probe for safety, it will cost as much as a cheap scope.

absolutely, I have seen that certain probes cost a lot. But my measurements will be only after the transformer secondary (Low Voltage).
for failures on the primary, or 325vdc I will only use the multimeter (honestly I also made flares with the multimeter  )
thanks ;-)

[wizard69]

I really wouldn't buy new if it can be avoided if the budget is tight.    Save that for the day that the instrument budget is flush with money.    I know it takes far more time in searching but the reality is you can save huge bucks buying used and get something that will get you started.   In time you will be able to easily justify a more advanced scope and more importantly know why you need the features you are buying.

thanks rogeorge
sure, but ds1054 costs 1/4 more...
My range price is: low ds1052 / top ds1054 (but it's already a lot for me...)
Ds1054 is 50Mhz.. but with a magic wand work to 100mhz..

I have seen that nobody takes into consideration rigol ds1202z-e... all smoke and no roast? 

 

[wizard69]

I had to bold this out because it is so important.   I think people are missing that we have somebody here getting started and that means a lot of other stuff will be needed.    I can also make an argument that buying some of that other stuff "new" or at least "newish", makes more sense than buying a new scope.   while I might get whacked for saying this scopes are pretty basic devices and haven't benefited from the world of shrinking electronics like some other tools.   At least not to the same extent.

Against that background I really think that the question boils down to your passion.  If you care enough the only thing that will keep you from buying the most expensive scope you can afford is the possibility that there is some other piece of test gear (or software) that you could buy by economizing on the scope.  There are tons of interesting and useful gear that can be purchased for the difference in the two scopes you reference.  A signal generator.  A microVNA.  A low end logic analyzer.  A PROM programmer.  A counter.  A voltage reference.  The list goes on and on.  If you shop carefully and go for low end capabilities you can get two or three items from the list for the price difference.

[james_s]

It's also worth remembering that if one is passionate about electronics they will probably own more than one scope eventually, this doesn't have to be a major life decision, you don't need to buy now what you think you might need in 10 years. I would say a multimeter is the only truly critical piece of test equipment followed by a scope, followed by other gear that you will accumulate as needed or as deals come up. Also take good care of your tools, the budget scopes tend to hold their value really well, if you keep it in good shape and keep the box and accessories you should be able to sell it for a substantial portion of what you paid at some later date should you decide it isn't meeting your needs.

[CharlotteSwiss]

thanks wizard69: I have never bought anything used in my life.
The advice is very valid, but I never considered buying used materials.
I know it's wrong, but I don't have much confidence.
But out of curiosity, are there shops that sell used oscilloscope with warranty?
because then there could also be a first time for me...

[CharlotteSwiss]

It's also worth remembering that if one is passionate about electronics they will probably own more than one scope eventually, this doesn't have to be a major life decision, you don't need to buy now what you think you might need in 10 years. I would say a multimeter is the only truly critical piece of test equipment followed by a scope, followed by other gear that you will accumulate as needed or as deals come up. Also take good care of your tools, the budget scopes tend to hold their value really well, if you keep it in good shape and keep the box and accessories you should be able to sell it for a substantial portion of what you paid at some later date should you decide it isn't meeting your needs.

I share what you wrote 
regarding the care of the equipment.. no problem, I take great care of it 
thanks

[CharlotteSwiss]

now before falling asleep, I would like to write a reflection:

Electro Fan:
If there is a common theme we see in first time user questions it's that many are not totally sure what they are going to do with the scope

as I said before, for hobby I repair simple  electronic faults; following the scheme I test the voltages, control capacitors, diodes, resistors, transistors... I have no experience with integrated multi pins, microprocessors.
I would like your direct advice: if I buy an oscilloscope, it will be useful in finding my simple faults? I will have better certainties of finding electronic faults?
sorry but now I have this doubt...
I would like to be happy with the new oscilloscope purchased, be able to use it in my little things.. without regretting in the future
Sorry if I alternate enthusiasm and despair.. 

now I can close my eyes 
Charlotte

[wizard69]

While your comments are great I think you are missing the point, this is somebody starting out with a strong interest in audio technology.

I think the discussions surrounding bandwidth and risetime are counterproductive for a beginner, it comes up almost every time and it often results in paralysis by indecision.

Except for the part where they want to view a 20 MHz square wave on a 20 MHz scope.

Everybody knows the -3dB bandwidth of their scope, it is on the front panel somewhere (usually).  Rise time?  Well, that requires a dive into the specifications.  Or a calculator...

We could try to change the industry into printing the rise time on the front panel but I wouldn't count on it happening any time soon.

We use an enormous number of pixels on this subject and the responses never change.  It really should be a sticky and EVERY response should be a link back to the sticky.

The problem is this particular response isn't exactly helpful for somebody relatively new to electronics.

For the casual user, the DS1054Z is more than enough for a very long time.  The fact that so many users around here have that scope is sufficient reason to believe it is capable of meeting diverse needs over a range of users.  Yes, I would go for the SDS1104X-E but that's because I'm not all that price sensitive for an expenditure of that magnitude.  I'm not in the market for anything beyond the 1104's capability, my projects don't warrant anything more sophisticated.  There are examples of users around here needing far more sophisticated equipment but they generally know about the need and know full well what equipment to buy.

Can lesser scopes do the job?  Certainly!  But it soon becomes a race to the bottom and the result is a scope that meets some current minimum expectation but isn't capable of growing with experience.  Heck, I got along with a 10 MHz scope for a decade or more.  It worked well for what I was doing at the time.  8080s and TTL just didn't run all that fast..  It would be totally useless for my current projects.

Now I wouldn't suggest getting a 10MHz scope these days unless it is an exceptional deal, but as you point out such a scope can serve people for a very long time.   A $50 scope can go a very long ways to allowing somebody to understand what their interests are and thus what they really need in a scope.

I look at it this way, my interest in electronics started out when I was a teenager many decades ago.   I literally had nothing in the way of instrumentation for a very long time, so any deal that came my way I took!   So when I see somebody on a budget the first thing I think is to minimize the cash outlay via used hardware.   These days even used digital scopes can be had, not dirt cheap vs an analog, but not impossible either.   There seems to be a huge fixation on Rigols in this thread but there are dozens of brands available used.

A test bench "CAN" be an expensive thing to outfit and frankly a scope is only part of that bench setup.   A key part at times but we should not dismiss the value of other instruments on a bench with a strong focus on audio hardware.   Frankly I think it is nuts to buy a brand new scope and pay the premium, at this point in outfitting her test equipment horde.   

[Circlotron]

Something nobody has mentioned yet - screen resolution. Most of the newer scopes have 800 x 480 pixels and that makes for a reasonable display. Most earlier scopes had much lower resolution and this makes the trace look very gritty and stepped.

[james_s]

thanks wizard69: I have never bought anything used in my life.
The advice is very valid, but I never considered buying used materials.
I know it's wrong, but I don't have much confidence.
But out of curiosity, are there shops that sell used oscilloscope with warranty?
because then there could also be a first time for me...

There are, but normally higher end gear and it is expensive. In many cases you could buy several used scopes on ebay without a warranty for the price of one that does have a warranty. I always buy used gear because I like older high end tools and I don't mind gambling on something that may or is known to be faulty. If you just want a tool you can rely on and your needs are not exotic then there is less reason to buy used.

[wizard69]

thanks wizard69: I have never bought anything used in my life.
The advice is very valid, but I never considered buying used materials.
I know it's wrong, but I don't have much confidence.
But out of curiosity, are there shops that sell used oscilloscope with warranty?
because then there could also be a first time for me...

Well that is a good question and honestly I'd have to say buyer be aware.   First off there are a lot of places to buy used equipment with various levels of customer support and warranties.   If you find a local shop it would be best if you can test before leaving the shop with the instrument even if they offer a warranty.   If they do offer a warranty it is likely to be real thin like 30 days or less.

I only mentioned used because it is about the only affordable way to get you a decent of tools/instruments without going broke.   There is no argument that a new scope can offer a lot of potential and a warranty, but some of the same hardware mentioned in this thread can be found used.   

The other option is to buy from a third party that hopefully is ethical and will allow you to test the unit out.   So what to look for here is a Ham radio operator, or independent electronics tech that has one that they want to sell and more importantly can power it up, demo and let you inspect it.   The reality is older stuff will have short comings due to age and use.   I wouldn't go too old unless the instrument itself will be the project (not a bad idea).

I have to look for another post I tried to make that I think go lost in the ether.   I mentioned in that one a few things that might help you make decisions.

[wizard69]

don't fall asleep yet!

A couple of things that apparently got lost.

There is a US Navy training book or sets of books, called NEETS that is worth looking up.   This can really help you out with basic electronics theory, this hackaday link has some info: https://hackaday.com/2017/06/09/electronics-education-courtesy-of-the-us-navy/

there are many youtubers that cover a great deal in the way of electronics repair, some with a strong interest in audio hardware.   One example is "https://www.youtube.com/user/MrCarlsonsLab" another is "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChTN8got77QeKPFRmTJ0teg" also known as xraytonyb.   These guys have differing approaches to instrumentation and the repair of audio equipment but after some viewing you should have a good idea of the lab equipment required to work on audio equipment repair.

now before falling asleep, I would like to write a reflection:

Electro Fan:
If there is a common theme we see in first time user questions it's that many are not totally sure what they are going to do with the scope

as I said before, for hobby I repair simple  electronic faults; following the scheme I test the voltages, control capacitors, diodes, resistors, transistors... I have no experience with integrated multi pins, microprocessors.

This is the primary reason beyond the budget that I'm suggesting used tools.   You can get started with such repairs and as your talent and knowledge grows consider newer equipment.

I would like your direct advice: if I buy an oscilloscope, it will be useful in finding my simple faults?

Yes!   However your need for instrumentation will not stop there.   A scope is probably the number two item needed on a repair bench behind a good multimeter or two.   that is my opinion of curse and some would suggest that the scope comes first.

I will have better certainties of finding electronic faults?

Yes.   However technique is very important.   The two guys a linked to above do a lot of audio hardware and sometime experience and technique beats instrumentation.   For example one amplifier had a very noisy resistor which was found by tapping on the resistors in the chassis and listening for the noise.   A scope could help here as you could see the noise as well as hear it.   

So the scope doesn't sit there and generate a report about what if finds, it is up to you to develop the skills to use it.   This is where we have a huge advantage in modern day repair work, you can fire up youtube and learn all sorts of techniques that have been developed over the years.

sorry but now I have this doubt...
I would like to be happy with the new oscilloscope purchased, be able to use it in my little things.. without regretting in the future
Sorry if I alternate enthusiasm and despair.. 

now I can close my eyes 
Charlotte

As you have described your interests almost any scope would get you started so nothing to despair.   If you want something to last and doesn't cost an arm and a leg but still want to buy new, I'd look for a two channel 100MHz scope.   Why 100MHz - because that is currently the point after which scopes, probes and etc. end up getting really expensive.   It also gives you the head room to move beyond digital.   

[alsetalokin4017]

My recommendation based on the intended usage and the experience level is.... you guessed it, the Rigol DS1054z.  There are many reasons.
A few:

-- buy new (warranties, customer support, etc.)
-- buy channels rather than bandwidth (based on your projected usage cases)
-- buy digital rather than analog  (much as I like analog CRT scopes, you will need the DSO to repair the CRT scope someday, not vice versa....)
-- buy features rather than a fast UI (It's not going to be a LeCroy or a R&S, so just get used to moving a bit slowly on the controls.)

If you want to see some of what can be done with the Rigol (or any modern DSO, really) check out my screenshot sample video:



No, I don't work for Rigol! And if I were to buy another DSO right now I'd probably get the Siglent. But I have more scopes than I can see without turning my head, so there it is.   

[Mechatrommer]

Women usually read gossip magazines 
but there are women who prefer to make love with electrons 

there is one guy here called free_electron. he's good at what he do, a descent man and its advisable to get advice from him as for dso suggestion, not much i can offer and as someone said, dso should not be sexistsm, but i guess anything with color pink on the panel or traces should do, Rigol has pink trace, so do the rest like Siglent etc..

[dietert1]

Can't really understand where is the problem with buying a decent scope. As soon as the usual distributors will learn that someone has a budget for buying new stuff, they will give you special offers and it won't stop thereafter. I am still getting offers from inquiries i made ten years ago.

Two years ago i bought a cheap Rigol offer - something like an economy version (DS2202E). It is small, has two channels and 200 MHz bandwidth. In the meantime it dropped twice. I could replace one optical encoder that had lost its shaft. The Rigol has some traps: For example i am sometimes trying to trigger in high resolution aquisition mode, that you normally use to elevate small signals above noise. Of course that does not work, but you need an external trigger signal. And the serial decoder doesn't work well. There haven't been and there won't appear any firmware updates for that instrument from Rigol.

But for serious work we have a Lecroy that was ten times as much and ten years old when we got it.

Regards, Dieter

PS: The pre-owned Lecroy came from Teledyne-Lecroy and it had some warranty.

[magic]

I have repaired some consumer electronics, I don't think 200MHz had ever made a difference in such circumstances.

Neither did four channels, because I only have two But sometimes more channels would have reduced the need to move probes back and forth around the circuit to see how various events relate to each other.

Memory depth may be useful too. The ability to record signals with much higher resolution than is immediately visible on the screen is the primary advantage of DSO over analog scopes.

When I was buying mine, it was usual that the entry level DSOs didn't reach their full bandwidth with all channels enabled and didn't reach their full memory depth at full bandwidth. Something to keep in mind.

[ebclr]

Charlotte

Before you buy a real one, try the virtual one

https://www.labcenter.com/

For learn you can choose the free edition do everything the paid do except save and print,

Eventually, you can buy if need to go further

[tggzzz]

Depending on what equipment you want to repair, you might benefit from something to :

• generate analogue test signal
• measure frequency response
• capture digital signals

If you are interested in the frequency response you need either a spectrum analyser or digitising scope + FFT for the relevant frequency range. RF SAs have fragile front ends, digitising SAs need high resolution (number of bits) to reduce the linearity/harmonics and reduce the noise floor.

Working analogue signal generators are easy to come by second hand.

Capturing digital signals can benefit from a cheap logic analyser.

The Digilent Analogue Discovery is good value for what it does: enable students to learn. It contains a 2 channel scope (14 bit resolution = good), 2 channel signal generator, digital pattern generator and logic analyser plus software for spectrum analyser. You can download the GUI and play with it in demo mode, to get a feel for what's there. The main limitations are related to input protection and output voltage range.

[CharlotteSwiss]

good morning World 
the choice of the oscilloscope stole my life, I dreamed of probes tonight 

-circlotron: true, if the display is bigger it wouldn't be bad (the models taken into consideration have a good display, excluding ds1052 but I don't think I'll take that..)
-james: i quickly looked at oscilloscopes used on ebay.. but they sell them for a little less than the new price 
-wizard69: unfortunately I have to buy online and anyway even trying the oscilloscope I wouldn't understand much...
 Thanks for instructive link, two things: I already have some books, although for now I have preferred the electrotechnical part...
 and I would like to let you know that I am not only interested in audio devices.. I try to repair any failed device: I fixed a mouse last week and repair power supply swich (it was just luck, I usually don't solve problems...  )
thanks for telling me that the oscilloscope helps in troubleshooting.. it helps me believe that it is the right and desired purchase 
-alsetalokin: great video, nice music.. I saw that you measured 800vpp, you used 100x probes: need to sell a kidney to buy probes 100x??? 
-mechatrommer: i inserting woman in the title, just to warn that I wasn't very experienced in electronics. I know few women who use soldering iron and oscilloscope! 
-dietert: Are you claiming that these low cost digital oscilloscopes have many problems? to start I will accept the risk ;-)
-magic: thanks for advice, I believe that even if they have limits, they will be fine for my initial use... for memory depth, I think that rigol offers something more than siglent (in the basic models)
-ebclr: thanks for the advice, on the pc I already have NI multisim 14 for play ;-) . But now I would prefer to use a real oscilloscope 
-tggzzz: I read now what you write. First I take the oscilloscope, then I will ask for advice on the signal generator. That will be the next purchase 

---------------------------------

my reflection just got out of bed:

I am excited to buy a new oscilloscope.. but reading online that using an oscilloscope can be very dangerous..
for example I read:
-it is dangerous to touch the oscilloscope frame... shock hazard 
-be careful not to measure devices with mains voltage
-better use an isolation transformer (but it costs too much)
-someone advises to detach the ground of the oscilloscope 

I'm usually cautious, but these warnings scare me 
Is it really so dangerous to use an oscilloscope?
Can you reassure me? I begin to have doubts that he is able to use an oscilloscope... 

thanks dear friends, you are important for my choice
 
Charlotte

[tggzzz]

my reflection just got out of bed:

I am excited to buy a new oscilloscope.. but reading online that using an oscilloscope can be very dangerous..
for example I read:
-it is dangerous to touch the oscilloscope frame... shock hazard 

No, it is safe because it is connected to mains earth - unless some idiot has deliberately removed that earth. Yes, people sometimes recommend disconnecting the earth (a.k.a. "floating the scope"). Yes, it sometimes kills experienced people even if they take precautions.

-be careful not to measure devices with mains voltage

It is safe with the correct probe.
It is safe if the device has an internal isolating transformer, and you don't touch the mains side of the transformer - which is pretty obvious.
With an SMPS there will be some parts of some PCBs that have dangerous mains voltages, other parts will be safe.
With an incorrect probe or the probe shield connected to something other than 0V, it can be dangerous.

-better use an isolation transformer (but it costs too much)

Not between the scope and its mains supply.
Possibly OK between the unit you are testing and its mains supply.
If there might be a problem, it is best to use a high voltage isolated probe.

-someone advises to detach the ground of the oscilloscope 

Never never never never do that. If you think you need to do that then there is a high probability that you will be exposed to lethal voltages.

On page https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/ have a look at

• Formal > effective use
• Praxis > practical safety
• Praxis > high voltages

Consider investing in an ELCB/GFCI/RCB for your workbench. But understand they can interact badly with an isolating transformer, since the isolation prevents ground currents flowing but doesn't reduce the voltages.

[CharlotteSwiss]

thanks tggzzz:
ok, the ground of the oscilloscope must not be removed.
I want to hope that the external frames of the oscilloscopes are not metallic...
I seem to understand that the main problem is to connect the probe ground in the wrong place.. but I see no danger to the user, only damage to the circuit or oscilloscope.
Yes, I meant between circuit tested and mains supply (isolation trasformer)
Then using probes Hv the dangers are minor (but only for health oscilloscope?)
Thanks for safety link ;-)
Charlotte