what an oscilloscope recommended for a woman passionate about electronics?

[CharlotteSwiss]

Writing proper documentation is extremely expensive. Moreover, for a newcomer to the market it is much harder. Have a look at the outstanding documents you can download from the traditional instrument manufacturers. But remember that many of those documents have been refined for 40 years or longer!

That is actually the worst limitation for new Chinese manufacturers. It is hard to hire good technical writers. And it takes a lot of work to distill the knowledge of your engineers into a usable document. Moreover, their engineers are themselves relative newcomers to the field while the old brands employ old people who have seen a lot!

So many times in my life I have wondered "Have the design team actually used one of these (whatever, oscilloscope, etc) before designing one?" And it's not infrequent to think that when using a Siglent or Rigol product. Of course they have improved a lot if only by reading curses on the forum!

Regardless of the cost of the product, but the manufacturer should ensure perfect documentation; you often find manual entries that have disappeared on the device, or new entries on the device that are missing in the manual. The customer should be treated better 

[borjam]

Regardless of the cost of the product, but the manufacturer should ensure perfect documentation; you often find manual entries that have disappeared on the device, or new entries on the device that are missing in the manual. The customer should be treated better 

They would be more expensive. Moreover, the current trend is stupid Youtube videos instead of proper manuals. Welcome to the 21th century 

[CharlotteSwiss]

in my opinion it would not affect the cost much, it is the unwillingness to do it instead; the guideline should be that the engineer adding a function tells the manual writer to make the small addition, I think it's a matter of a few minutes!
Maybe I like things done well, precise ... and I don't understand things done at random

[jdutky]

Regardless of the cost of the product, but the manufacturer should ensure perfect documentation; you often find manual entries that have disappeared on the device, or new entries on the device that are missing in the manual. The customer should be treated better 

They would be more expensive. Moreover, the current trend is stupid Youtube videos instead of proper manuals. Welcome to the 21th century 

You know, I'm normally very skeptical of youtube videos as an educational medium, but for instructions on operating something like an oscilloscope I think that a video is almost a perfect solution. There is a lot of physical action involved in operating a scope, and interpreting the output also has a significant "dynamic" aspect: the traces MOVE in ways that is very difficult to convey in words or static images. I wish that Tektronix had made more movies demonstrating the use of their analog scopes from the 70s, because there's a lot of capability in those things, and the operators manuals are both terse, and miserly with the illustrations.

I understand, line art cost extra to draw up, and photographic plates in printed documents were EXPENSIVE, but they were selling a piece of test equipment that cost as much as a new car, if not as much as a new house, and the operator documentation could be better (I direct your attention to the 475 Oscilloscope Operators Instruction Manual that is 54 14  cm x 21.5 cm pages (5x8.5 inches), including the table of contents, one of which is blank. I'm having the devil of a time figuring out under what conditions the READY lamp should be lit, and I've literally read the booklet from cover to cover and the only discussion of the READY indicator is on page 10 and reads "32. READY - light that indicates A sweep is "armed" and, upon receipt of an adequate trigger signal, will present a single-sweep display.")

Even a short film demonstrating each of the modes of operation, and the common types of measurements performed with specific scopes would have been of great benefit to the customer base. In the same vein, those same movies, uploaded to YouTube, would be invaluable for hobbyists making due with old scopes they scored at a swap-meet or off eBay.

And, it's not like Tek was saving their pennies: they made plenty of instructional videos, as well as promotional videos about all sorts of manufacturing technology. Heck, for all I know they made model-specific instructional videos and they either haven't been uploaded to YouTube, or my Google-foo is sad and weak.

[tautech]

Manuals fully documenting scope usage or for that matter any modern instrument would be so large that alone would be a disincentive to prospective buyers as the instrument would appear to be too complex for many to use when in fact basic scope usage is very simple. Achieving stable triggering is everything and adjustment of amplitude and timebase are a doddle by comparison especially with more complex waveforms.

So rather than hold your hand as you venture into scope usage it's best IMHO to get hints by example then put them into practice yourself.
Videos, app notes and operating tips are where it's at rather than trying to remember all that might be in a manual.
Siglent has a good and continually growing range in Resources for each model they produce:
EU one for Charlotte:
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/#resources
US one for jdutky:
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/#resources
Factory website:
https://int.siglent.com/products-video/sds1000x-e/
https://int.siglent.com/products-application/sds1000x-e/

[CharlotteSwiss]

And, it's not like Tek was saving their pennies: they made plenty of instructional videos, as well as promotional videos about all sorts of manufacturing technology. Heck, for all I know they made model-specific instructional videos and they either haven't been uploaded to YouTube, or my Google-foo is sad and weak.

 
so even famous brands don't make manuals up to par? This is a problem!
The manual of my Siglent after all has 240 pages, the only context is that some functions are missing and others are poorly explained .. I do not put a negative rating, but not very good either

[CharlotteSwiss]

Manuals fully documenting scope usage or for that matter any modern instrument would be so large that alone would be a disincentive to prospective buyers as the instrument would appear to be too complex for many to use when in fact basic scope usage is very simple. Achieving stable triggering is everything and adjustment of amplitude and timebase are a doddle by comparison especially with more complex waveforms.

So rather than hold your hand as you venture into scope usage it's best IMHO to get hints by example then put them into practice yourself.
Videos, app notes and operating tips are where it's at rather than trying to remember all that might be in a manual.
Siglent has a good and continually growing range in Resources for each model they produce:
EU one for Charlotte:
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/#resources
US one for jdutky:
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/#resources
Factory website:
https://int.siglent.com/products-video/sds1000x-e/
https://int.siglent.com/products-application/sds1000x-e/

thanks rob, I had already seen these resources! As I wrote above, the manual is not the worst that can be found; I only claim that some functions are missing, at most they would have occupied 3 pages perhaps more!

However, now I have finished analyzing the entire manual and I have understood almost everything, so I'm happy; this discussion helped me a lot, I am very grateful. I only have one thing left to check, as from some Siglent screens I have seen a difference with my display ... if I do not solve I ask here..

 

[2N3055]

in my opinion it would not affect the cost much, it is the unwillingness to do it instead; the guideline should be that the engineer adding a function tells the manual writer to make the small addition, I think it's a matter of a few minutes!
Maybe I like things done well, precise ... and I don't understand things done at random

Swiss and likes precision... So unusual  ..   

As far as manuals, I agree with Tautech. Scopes are so complicated and user manual would be 1000 pages long.
So user manuals are first level documentation, slightly simplified..

Elephant in the room nobody mentions is that it used to be that you actually got TWO books with device: USER manual AND REFERENCE manual.

User manual was, well user manual. But Reference manual was a 1000 pages taxative enumeration of all details. So user manual would mention triggers, explain how you get to screen where you do triggers, but reference manual would have taxative enumeration of all trigger types with all parameters.

With years reference manuals stopped existing.. I miss them dearly.

But there is A TRICK..

Most equipment still provide Reference manual for programing with SCPI commands...
And that one HAS all options in it, because it has to...
So I use that instead real reference manual, it's just a bit harder to read...
Regards,

Sinisa

[CharlotteSwiss]

Swiss and likes precision... So unusual  ..   

---

But there is A TRICK..
Most equipment still provide Reference manual for programing with SCPI commands...
And that one HAS all options in it, because it has to...
So I use that instead real reference manual, it's just a bit harder to read...

we wrote on the front that we are precise in switzerland 

So could I find this elusive manual very complete? it would be interesting, but I don't think it exists for my siglent .. 
but now I don't need it anymore, I've studied every function (or almost come on ..)
thanks sinisa 

[CharlotteSwiss]

There remains only one doubt to clarify, the trigger point delay: if you look at the attached image, in the upper part there is the screen of my oscilloscope, if for example I move the blue marker of the trigger point to the right on the display , the delay value will be positive (+ 1.55); so I can say that if I have a positive trigger point delay, I will be able to analyze the pre-trigger part of the signal better!

But if you always look in the attached image, the lower screen (taken from the Siglent tutorial), you can clearly see that it's the opposite: the blue marker is on the right on the display like mine, but in this case they have a delay of the negative trigger point (-1.55)

Where is the mistake?
note: also in the tutorial of the forum on siglent 1104, I saw a screen with marker on the right and negative delay value ..
I do not understand..
thanks 

[rstofer]

On my Rigol, I get positive values when the trigger point is left of the screen centerline and negative values when the trigger point is right of the centerline.

This has nothing to do with Delayed Sweep which I just played with for the first time.  For whatever reason, I had never used this feature.  I knew it was there but I just hadn't come up with an application (yet).

I think the User Manual gives a broad outline of the capabilities but expects the user to twiddle the knobs for the more detailed learning.  Given a reasonable input voltage, there isn't much you can do with the knobs that will actually cause damage.

[jdutky]

And, it's not like Tek was saving their pennies: they made plenty of instructional videos, as well as promotional videos about all sorts of manufacturing technology. Heck, for all I know they made model-specific instructional videos and they either haven't been uploaded to YouTube, or my Google-foo is sad and weak.

 
so even famous brands don't make manuals up to par? This is a problem!
The manual of my Siglent after all has 240 pages, the only context is that some functions are missing and others are poorly explained .. I do not put a negative rating, but not very good either

Oh, the Tek manuals are actually excellent, even by the standards of the day (the Tek 475 is from the 70s, when even consumer electronics companies regularly provided schematics in their manuals, if not full descriptions of the theory of operation), and this slim manuals is probably plenty for a skilled operator. My problem is that I am NOT a skilled operator and have very limited experience that should provide context for the explanations in the manual.

Modern standards, even for professional technical gear, is quite different, and my understanding is that SIglent actually has excellent documentation, both printed and on-line. They are a Chinese company, and it is a testimony to their dedication and effort that their English documentation is as good as it is; it is quite difficult for ANY company to hire good technical writers, much less hiring such writers to produce documents in something other than their native language.

Now that I've said that, I should give the 475 Oscilloscope Service Instruction Manual a good read to see if it has a more detailed discussion of the READY lamp. At the very least it will have a schematic from which I might deduce when the light should be lit.

[CharlotteSwiss]

And, it's not like Tek was saving their pennies: they made plenty of instructional videos, as well as promotional videos about all sorts of manufacturing technology. Heck, for all I know they made model-specific instructional videos and they either haven't been uploaded to YouTube, or my Google-foo is sad and weak.

 
so even famous brands don't make manuals up to par? This is a problem!
The manual of my Siglent after all has 240 pages, the only context is that some functions are missing and others are poorly explained .. I do not put a negative rating, but not very good either

Oh, the Tek manuals are actually excellent, even by the standards of the day (the Tek 475 is from the 70s, when even consumer electronics companies regularly provided schematics in their manuals, if not full descriptions of the theory of operation), and this slim manuals is probably plenty for a skilled operator. My problem is that I am NOT a skilled operator and have very limited experience that should provide context for the explanations in the manual.

Modern standards, even for professional technical gear, is quite different, and my understanding is that SIglent actually has excellent documentation, both printed and on-line. They are a Chinese company, and it is a testimony to their dedication and effort that their English documentation is as good as it is; it is quite difficult for ANY company to hire good technical writers, much less hiring such writers to produce documents in something other than their native language.

Now that I've said that, I should give the 475 Oscilloscope Service Instruction Manual a good read to see if it has a more detailed discussion of the READY lamp. At the very least it will have a schematic from which I might deduce when the light should be lit.

but in fact I didn't say that the documentation is poor, I just said that it could be done better 

[CharlotteSwiss]

On my Rigol, I get positive values when the trigger point is left of the screen centerline and negative values when the trigger point is right of the centerline.

This has nothing to do with Delayed Sweep which I just played with for the first time.  For whatever reason, I had never used this feature.  I knew it was there but I just hadn't come up with an application (yet).

I think the User Manual gives a broad outline of the capabilities but expects the user to twiddle the knobs for the more detailed learning.  Given a reasonable input voltage, there isn't much you can do with the knobs that will actually cause damage.

I begin to think that my Siglent, as regards the blue delay at the top, reverses its sign; I can move the knobs I want, but if I have the marker on the right it marks positive for me, when instead I think it should be negative; I have to look better ..   

[rstofer]

That took less than 10 seconds on Google:

READY Lamp-Indicates A Sweep is "armed" and upon receipt of an adequate trigger signal, will present a single-sweep display.

It's also on Page 9 of the User Manual - Item 26
https://www.dennlec.com/images/manuals/tek-475-op-manual.pdf

It's the same indicator on my 485 so I had a bit of a head start.  That is a great series of scopes!

[tautech]

On my Rigol, I get positive values when the trigger point is left of the screen centerline and negative values when the trigger point is right of the centerline.

This has nothing to do with Delayed Sweep which I just played with for the first time.  For whatever reason, I had never used this feature.  I knew it was there but I just hadn't come up with an application (yet).

I think the User Manual gives a broad outline of the capabilities but expects the user to twiddle the knobs for the more detailed learning.  Given a reasonable input voltage, there isn't much you can do with the knobs that will actually cause damage.

I begin to think that my Siglent, as regards the blue delay at the top, reverses its sign; I can move the knobs I want, but if I have the marker on the right it marks positive for me, when instead I think it should be negative; I have to look better ..   

The horizontal marker is just to indicate the horizontal trigger position and especially in Zoom mode give a reference position for where you are in the unzoomed waveform.
WRT to the screenshot you posted earlier I believe the + was corrected in firmware after release as most of Performa01's SDS1104X-E review was done with a pre-release unit he was sent for beta testing.

Yes the power of a DSO to set the horizontal reference position is great and we each might move it from the 0s position to suit our needs be they pre-trigger or post-trigger. To fix it is useful too especially for those coming from CRO's where the trigger is always at the far left of the display.

Below, fixed so that adjustments of the timbase do not move the trigger off the display yet at any time we can still press the H-Pos control to return it to the 0s position or anywhere else and it will remain there regardless of timebase setting.

[rstofer]

The modern DSO is just magic.

[CharlotteSwiss]

The horizontal marker is just to indicate the horizontal trigger position and especially in Zoom mode give a reference position for where you are in the unzoomed waveform.
WRT to the screenshot you posted earlier I believe the + was corrected in firmware after release as most of Performa01's SDS1104X-E review was done with a pre-release unit he was sent for beta testing.

Yes the power of a DSO to set the horizontal reference position is great and we each might move it from the 0s position to suit our needs be they pre-trigger or post-trigger. To fix it is useful too especially for those coming from CRO's where the trigger is always at the far left of the display.

Below, fixed so that adjustments of the timbase do not move the trigger off the display yet at any time we can still press the H-Pos control to return it to the 0s position or anywhere else and it will remain there regardless of timebase setting.

thanks rob 
surely they have reversed the sign of the delay with the new firmware, now everything is back; I was not sure because in the manual it is never explained whether the delay must be positive or negative on the right or left; however, they explain the marker with the zoom function, and everything was regular!
I did not know that with the old oscilloscopes it was not possible to move the trigger time position, in fact it is convenient to be able to analyze pre-trigger or post trigger is quickly and easily
 

[tautech]

Of course you can have the H-Pos marker off the display and then the pointer tips sideways to indicate it is however without the + number you have no way to tell how far it is off the display. The number only is there to show how far the H-Pos is from the 0s position (middle of display) and serves no other purpose.
It is only an OSD like V/div and timebase settings.

Old scopes only had the V/div and s/div marks on the control but now DSO's have coarse/fine adjustments by pressing the encoder we must have OSD info to see the scopes settings.

Principles of operation are the same except the settings info is on the display rather than needing to look at the controls which is much much better when we take screenshots. This alone is the primary reason why I bought my first DSO....and one able to capture screenshots to USB.
Then we can share screenshots with our mentors or place them in forum posts for help and guidance while we learn.
This ability is very important and not valued highly enough by scope newbies.

[CharlotteSwiss]

yes, of course, when the trigger point is out of the display the pointer points in that direction: I still find the delay value useful, because you realize how far it is off display.
In June I didn't know anything about oscilloscopes, now I have to admit that these new DSO do a lot of things, it's a pleasure to observe an electrical signal now
 

[rstofer]

Of course you can have the H-Pos marker off the display and then the pointer tips sideways to indicate it is however without the + number you have no way to tell how far it is off the display. The number only is there to show how far the H-Pos is from the 0s position (middle of display) and serves no other purpose.
It is only an OSD like V/div and timebase settings.

I'm thinking that the delay value might be quite useful if I am interested in some part of the signal that happens a relatively long time after the trigger.  I want to know how long after the trigger the event occurs.

[jdutky]

That took less than 10 seconds on Google:

READY Lamp-Indicates A Sweep is "armed" and upon receipt of an adequate trigger signal, will present a single-sweep display.

It's also on Page 9 of the User Manual - Item 26
https://www.dennlec.com/images/manuals/tek-475-op-manual.pdf

It's the same indicator on my 485 so I had a bit of a head start.  That is a great series of scopes!

Yes, that's in the version for 475+DMM (my 475 is the base model without the DMM, and comes with a manual that omits the DMM-related topics), but, again, it's not very helpful unless you know what "armed" refers to.

I've never seen the light illuminated on 475. Have you ever seen it lit on your 485? If so, how did you get to that condition?

[tautech]

Of course you can have the H-Pos marker off the display and then the pointer tips sideways to indicate it is however without the + number you have no way to tell how far it is off the display. The number only is there to show how far the H-Pos is from the 0s position (middle of display) and serves no other purpose.
It is only an OSD like V/div and timebase settings.

I'm thinking that the delay value might be quite useful if I am interested in some part of the signal that happens a relatively long time after the trigger.  I want to know how long after the trigger the event occurs.

Yes but on a DSO we can use cursors for that.
An example below with the horizontal trigger point not centralised and in zoom mode we can see the pointer sideways signifying it's off the display yet in the unzoomed portion it is on the display. We might use cursors to give us a packet to packet measurement so to calculate the baud rate of a datastream.

[rstofer]

I'm thinking that the delay value might be quite useful if I am interested in some part of the signal that happens a relatively long time after the trigger.  I want to know how long after the trigger the event occurs.

Yes but on a DSO we can use cursors for that.

Yes, and cursors are very powerful.  I'm thinking about a situation where the trigger position isn't on the screen given the time/div setting, it's WAY over to the left but I don't want to change the time/div.  This feature isn't nearly as powerful as cursors but it seems like it might be handy.

[rstofer]

I've never seen the light illuminated on 475. Have you ever seen it lit on your 485? If so, how did you get to that condition?

Try this:  Input a signal, I used a square wave.  With the sweep mode set at "Auto Trig", adjust the trigger for a stable display.  Now increase the trigger level until the trace starts to roll.

Switch the sweep mode to Single Sweep and the Ready light should light up and there won't be a trace because the trigger level is outside the range of the signal.  Now slowly decrease the trigger level until you get one sweep and the trigger is no longer Ready.  You can use the momentary "Reset" position to re-arm the trigger.  A Single Sweep on a CRO is pretty useless for anything other than photography.  Or for a VERY slow time/division.

"Armed" just means the trigger circuit is ready and waiting for a trigger condition.  There are 4 trigger input Sources and 4 trigger Coupling methods.  I am using AC Coupling, and Int trigger.  And a 485 which I hope is similar...