what an oscilloscope recommended for a woman passionate about electronics?

[rstofer]

Excuse me for this intervention, I am new to this forum, but tried to read the 33 pages of this topic and gave up .....

You probably missed the good parts which start somewhere after Reply 150 so a lot earlier than page 33.  Still, not everybody has been enthusiastic.

We did a lot of experiments considering that Charlotte doesn't have a real signal generator.  We worked through the math to show that the displayed results were correct.  We spent time gating the integral function because the integral of a sine wave over 2 pi radians is 0.  So, we took it over 1 pi radians and doubled it.  We spent a lot of time on the FFT function to make sure we understood how the scope arrived at the number of buckets and their width.  We played in areas where most users never tread.

Using a scope for YT is trivial.  Adding single shot is truly important but these skills take about 5 minutes to learn and the modern DSO is so much more than granddad's old CRO.  We spent quite a bit of time  on measurements and whether they made sense.  We have agreed that Standard Deviation has a moving definition depending on context.

We used functions I didn't know my scope had.  Well, I knew they were there, I just hadn't used them.  We didn't get to decoding because Charlotte doesn't have a signal source but I'll bet she gets one sooner or later.  An Arduino is all it would take (hint!).  Decoding is another feature that simply wasn't available on a CRO.

I guess the field of hobby electronics is big enough to incorporate someone who really wants to know what their scope can do.   This is the most fun thread I have ever been involved with.  Truly educational!

[CharlotteSwiss]

You probably missed to good parts which start somewhere after Reply 150 so a lot earlier than page 33.  Still, not everybody has been enthusiastic.

We did a lot of experiments considering that Charlotte doesn't have a real signal generator.  We worked through the math to show that the displayed results were correct.  We spent time gating the integral function because the integral of a sine wave over 2 pi radians is 0.  So, we took it over 1 pi radians and doubled it.  We spent a lot of time on the FFT function to make sure we understood how the scope arrived at the number of buckets and their width.  We played in areas where most users never tread.

Using a scope for YT is trivial.  Adding single shot is truly important but these skills take about 5 minutes to learn and the modern DSO is so much more than granddad's old CRO.  We spent quite a bit of time  on measurements and whether they made sense.  We have agreed that Standard Deviation has a moving definition depending on context.

We used functions I didn't know my scope had.  Well, I knew they were there, I just hadn't used them.  We didn't get to decoding because Charlotte doesn't have a signal source but I'll bet she gets one sooner or later.  An Arduino is all it would take (hint!).  Decoding is another feature that simply wasn't available on a CRO.

I guess the field of hobby electronics is big enough to incorporate someone who really wants to know what their scope can do.   This is the most fun thread I have ever been involved with.  Truly educational!

thanks rstofer, you explained very well how this topic took place, I will add some things: the initial part is obviously about the choice of the oscilloscope, of a person (me) who had never seen it, only heard of it; then we have the first approaches to the instrument, the curiosity, the questions (trivial for the expert, but not for the beginner) that are made by touching this new world; going into the topic we then deal with topics, which at least for a beginner, are by no means trivial, and that perhaps most would have bypassed: not me!
There could be two approaches to the study of a new instrument: learning during the time, or knowing immediately the potential that it offers us; it is obvious that I prefer the second option, obviously it reflects my character.
To conclude the speech:

Still, not everybody has been enthusiastic.
  users are many, and among them many may not appreciate this topic; honestly, the reason escapes me, I don't understand what a nuisance this topic can give ..
I just add this consideration of mine: I appreciate that a user can tell me that my discussion is confused, my approach is not shared, they are constructive criticisms; I appreciate less that it is laughed at, this is not done between polite people; unfortunately this also happened, but it is not a problem 


I guess the field of hobby electronics is big enough to incorporate someone who really wants to know what their scope can do.   This is the most fun thread I have ever been involved with.  Truly educational!
I am very happy that you enjoyed and enjoyed it; I also very much appreciated the fact that you wanted to fully discover your rigol while helping me discover my siglent; it makes me very happy

to finish ..: by now I am missing 25 pages of manual, then I will certainly think of some signal generator; I admit that it would have actually helped me analyze the signals on the oscilloscope; it is also true that I have made up for it with online signals and with NI software

 

[2N3055]

...

I guess the field of hobby electronics is big enough to incorporate someone who really wants to know what their scope can do.   This is the most fun thread I have ever been involved with.  Truly educational!

Agree..

It's even more than that. By explaining how some measurement on scope is performed, we also spoke about measurement itself. For those playing at home, they might not realise how important this part of electronics is. Many times solving a problem with a circuit is all about devising method how to measure something here and there and by looking at results realize how it works and what is wrong and what is right.

Congratulations on your efforts.

But there are so many subjects to study in electricity and electronics that it may be unconstructive to spend months just studying a small part of all the possibilities of your new oscilloscope.

I am sure that with your intelligence you could have learned to use an oscilloscope like the HAMEG 203 in less than an hour.

Don't you think you've gone in the wrong direction?

Excuse me for this intervention, I am new to this forum, but tried to read the 33 pages of this topic and gave up .....

By that logic, than she shouldn't have bought the scope at all, multimeter is a better choice, because it even simpler, only one knob.... Or maybe not take electronics as a hobby at all, because you can, you know, hurt your head with thinking..

Point is, some people want learn more, not less.. As rstofer nicely said, many years ago, I learned to use analog scope in few hours, including reading the manual cover to cover... Because there is nothing to learn. The notion of X-Y graph with time on abscissa and voltage on ordinate was familiar from elementary school math. Then X-Y mode that you can use to apply any voltage to  abscissa  and ordinate ... cool, so I can show graphs with two voltages that are correlated to show anything I like.... Triggering was name for a circuit that there to ensure waveform always start sweep at the same part of waveform, so graph on screen would retrace always the same spots on screen so it would be stable, otherwise you would see some scribbles...... Wait, but if signal is not repeating exactly the same all the time, you will see god knows what on screen... That's not cool..

And that  is analog scope. You can explain concept of all analog scope can do (and it can't do very much, in fact very little..) on one A4 page.  Literally nothing to learn there. And it cannot do more than 10% of even cheapest digital scope of today.  Easy to learn, and even less useful..

And with digital scope you don't need many other instruments (most of the time)...  I'm not a timenut, so there has been a long time since I used my freq. counter. To verify CPU clock frequency, counter on a scope is more than enough. Also you need special instruments to measure true RMS of a 5 MHz signal. Scope's RMS ( or Stdev function  ) will get you closer to correct value than almost anything else that you have in a lab. etc etc... If there is a instrument that should be called multimeter, that is today's digital scope.

In the old days, you had to learn how to use all of those individual instruments one by one. Today, you have them all inside the scope so it takes a bit of a learning curve.
And that is not something that is hard to do. It is powerful and enabling and is worth the effort..

Regards,

Siniša

[CharlotteSwiss]

By that logic, than she shouldn't have bought the scope at all, multimeter is a better choice, because it even simpler, only one knob.... Or maybe not take electronics as a hobby at all, because you can, you know, hurt your head with thinking..

 If there is a instrument that should be called multimeter, that is today's digital scope.

In the old days, you had to learn how to use all of those individual instruments one by one. Today, you have them all inside the scope so it takes a bit of a learning curve.

thanks Sinisa for your interesting thought, much appreciated; I quoted a part for reflection; some years ago I wanted to get a multimeter with more functions (UT71) because my basic amprobe did not satisfy me; I am not yet registered in this beautiful forum, but I was already looking at it (I admit that I had found interesting ideas on the UT71); that multimeter, in my opinion, already does a lot of additional analysis, but like all things it requires that it be studied thoroughly; I studied it as I did with this oscilloscope, and today I can say that I know all its features!
I agree that if I had taken a DSO then, that multimeter I could have left it on the shelf ..
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

back to my post #801, regarding Color grade, I read this statement from the famous review of siglent 1104 from a user here on the forum:

Display – Color Grade: Use this whenever you like, especially for aiding visibility on fast edges
and narrow pulses – particularly useful for screenshots. Be aware that is not the best setting for
multi-channel acquisition because channels look indistinguishable on the screen.

recommend it for fast edges more than anything else ... but the advice for screenshots makes me think it's a little useful function ...

I thought back to my claim that this function could have been used to find signal noise or instability: much better at persistence, of course.

Where the manual says:
Color temperature adopts the change of waveforms’ color to reflect the change of the waveforms’ appearing probability. The greater the probability that the waveform appears, the warmer the color is; the smaller the waveform appears, the colder the color is.

it is not clear what probability of appearance they speak .. 

[2N3055]

back to my post #801, regarding Color grade, I read this statement from the famous review of siglent 1104 from a user here on the forum:

Display – Color Grade: Use this whenever you like, especially for aiding visibility on fast edges
and narrow pulses – particularly useful for screenshots. Be aware that is not the best setting for
multi-channel acquisition because channels look indistinguishable on the screen.

recommend it for fast edges more than anything else ... but the advice for screenshots makes me think it's a little useful function ...

I thought back to my claim that this function could have been used to find signal noise or instability: much better at persistence, of course.

You should read through all those PDFs that Performa01 wrote. Not only he's excellent engineer, he's also honest with what instrument can and cannot do...

Color grading will show you how frequently trace goes over a spot on a screen... If it is very rare it will be blue (in this palette of colours. More expensive scopes let you choose the  palette, what the colours mean) and it will be red and yellow if signal is spending lots of time in this spot.  So fast edges will be blue, places where signal slows down will be warmer colour. If you have glitch on a signal, your normal signal will be red/yellow and glitch will be blue... There are many frequency grading displays (those based on time persistence, those based on frequency of repetition...) On your scope you have time persistence variant. 

[CharlotteSwiss]

You should read through all those PDF that Performa01 wrote. Not only he's excellent engineer, he's also honest with what instrument can and cannot do...

Color grading will show you how frequently trace goes over a spot on a screen... If it is very rare it will be blue (in this palette of colours. More expensive scopes let you choose the  palette, what the colours mean) and it will be red and yellow if signal is spending lots of time in this spot.  So fast edges will be blue, places where signal slows down will be warmer colour. If you have glitch on a signal, your normal signal will be red/yellow and glitch will be blue... There are many frequency grading displays (those based on time persistence, those based on frequency of repetition...) On your scope you have time persistence variant.

thank you Sinisa
I have read many of those pdf, they helped me a lot in understanding various things (even if my siglent is not the same, but they have points in common).

Maybe now I understand color grade: if a point of the signal is stable as voltage over time, it will be warm in color; if the signal point changes the voltage in a short time, it will be cold in color.
This is why a DC signal will be red, while a fast rising edge will be blue; or a rare peak, it will be cold in color, so that the tension of its points will be rare on the display
Put simply, a warm color will suggest to me that that tension is reached by many points of the signal, while a cold color that that tension is reached by a few points.
 

[2N3055]

Maybe now I understand color grade: if a point of the signal is stable as voltage over time, it will be warm in color; if the signal point changes the voltage in a short time, it will be cold in color.
This is why a DC signal will be red, while a fast rising edge will be blue; or a rare peak, it will be cold in color, so that the tension of its points will be rare on the display
Put simply, a warm color will suggest to me that that tension is reached by many points of the signal, while a cold color that that tension is reached by a few points.
 

Exactly that! .. You're doing excellent job learning this stuff...Just keep on going...
All the best,
Siniša

[CharlotteSwiss]

Exactly that! .. You're doing excellent job learning this stuff...Just keep on going...
All the best,
Siniša

 

I have attached an image; as you can see the rising / falling edges are those with colder color (less frequency); in fact on the display the ramp / descent has only 5 points at the same voltage, therefore the siglent software will color all the points represented in blue only 5 times; yellow for example those represented 20 times; those represented 100 times in red and so on ..
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

I just tried the Pass / Fail test (mask) function as well; very interesting, with this function we can analyze the stability of a signal while we prepare a dinner 
I lost a moment to understand the measure of setting of the mask, it did not come back to me; I then understood that if I set 1, it will mean that we will have 1div on the right and a div on the left (or above and below) the average of the signal on the display (so the mask will have a width of 2 * the setting)
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

in the back of the siglent 1202x-e I have a BNC socket with the Pass / fail or Trig Out function.
Pass / fail I understand. I don't understand instead what Trig Out could be used for: if I connected a BNC cable to this socket towards the BNC input of a channel of another oscilloscope, at each trigger pulse it would send a signal to the other display, but what can be the usefulness of all this?

Regarding Trig Out the siglent manual says only this:
Pass/Fail or Trigger Out
The BNC port can output a signal that reflects the current waveform capture rate of the oscilloscope at each trigger or a pass/fail test pulse.

 

[rstofer]

As you suspect, Trigger Out can be used to synch another scope.  Or it could be used to start some external piece of equipment, perhaps a logic analyzer.

I have never used the feature but you will notice that 2 channel scopes have a trigger input.  You just run a coax between Trigger Out on Scope 1 to Trigger Input on Scope 2 and you now have a 4 channel scope.

Most 4 channel scopes don't have a trigger input.  You just use one of the channels.

[CharlotteSwiss]

As you suspect, Trigger Out can be used to synch another scope.  Or it could be used to start some external piece of equipment, perhaps a logic analyzer.

I have never used the feature but you will notice that 2 channel scopes have a trigger input.  You just run a coax between Trigger Out on Scope 1 to Trigger Input on Scope 2 and you now have a 4 channel scope.

Most 4 channel scopes don't have a trigger input.  You just use one of the channels.

yes in fact my two channels also has a trigger input (ext); then it is not exactly as I thought the use of trig out, that is to analyze the trigegr of the first oscilloscope, but instead being able to use the trigger in use on oscilloscope 1 for example on oscilloscope 2. Thanks rstofer, by now I am rearranging some provisional notes accumulated in these 3 months, and then I can say that I have studied everything
 

[jdutky]

You should read through all those PDFs that Performa01 wrote. Not only he's excellent engineer, he's also honest with what instrument can and cannot do...

I would like to read these PDFs too, where can they be found?

[2N3055]

You should read through all those PDFs that Performa01 wrote. Not only he's excellent engineer, he's also honest with what instrument can and cannot do...

I would like to read these PDFs too, where can they be found?

Here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771

[jdutky]

Thanks, this looks like great reading.

I'm trying to decide between one of the low-end Siglent 4-channel scopes, and finding review videos on YouTube has been hit-and-miss. I was interested to read that CharlotteSwiss had settled on the SDS1204x-e, as that is the model that I have been considering as well, but have been hesitating because I understand that you can hack the SDS1104x-e to 200MHz, and the 1204's price is outside my "impulse buy" range.

I've been trying to wade through CharlotteSwiss's mega-thread, but it's slow going.

[rstofer]

I understand that you can hack the SDS1104x-e to 200MHz, and the 1204's price is outside my "impulse buy" range.

That's my understanding. Search the Test Equipment forum for details

Search for "sds1104x-e unlock" and you will get this mega-thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/
You may also find something a lot shorter and more to the point.  Read carefully, understand what you're doing and go for it!

I've been trying to wade through CharlotteSwiss's mega-thread, but it's slow going.

We covered a lot of territory and in some areas where most may never go.  The Integral bit was interesting.  We know the integral of sin(x) is -cos(x) {plus a constant} but to see it electrically, on a scope, is very illuminating.

[tautech]

Thanks, this looks like great reading.

I'm trying to decide between one of the low-end Siglent 4-channel scopes, and finding review videos on YouTube has been hit-and-miss. I was interested to read that CharlotteSwiss had settled on the SDS1204x-e, as that is the model that I have been considering as well, but have been hesitating because I understand that you can hack the SDS1104x-e to 200MHz, and the 1204's price is outside my "impulse buy" range.

I've been trying to wade through CharlotteSwiss's mega-thread, but it's slow going.

SDS1202X-E actually is Charlotte's scope. 

The SDS1104X-E is another step up in some capability again. Core features are much the same as its 2ch brother however Bode plot, WiFi, MSO, AWG and the integral webserver of the 4ch unit provide a more complete instrument.
The real rundown on the 4ch X-E's is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/

[CharlotteSwiss]

Thanks, this looks like great reading.

I'm trying to decide between one of the low-end Siglent 4-channel scopes, and finding review videos on YouTube has been hit-and-miss. I was interested to read that CharlotteSwiss had settled on the SDS1204x-e, as that is the model that I have been considering as well, but have been hesitating because I understand that you can hack the SDS1104x-e to 200MHz, and the 1204's price is outside my "impulse buy" range.

I've been trying to wade through CharlotteSwiss's mega-thread, but it's slow going.

I chose a two-channel, for me, at the time, it was useless to buy a porsche when I just need a skoda ;-)
If you are sure that you will use more than two channels, then 4 channels is the right choice for you
 

[jdutky]

I chose a two-channel, for me, at the time, it was useless to buy a porsche when I just need a skoda ;-)
If you are sure that you will use more than two channels, then 4 channels is the right choice for you
 

oh, I misread, thanks.

I currently have a fairly nice old analog 2-channel scope, and two IS good enough for lots of things, especially if you understand how to use the external trigger inputs and outputs (and have a second scope), which I did NOT understand until fairly recently, but I've had measurements that would have been faster and easier if I had an extra channel or two. Also, if I'm going to upgrade I figure I might as well jump in with both feet.

Did you consider buying the lower spec 1102 or 1052 and "hacking" it up to the higher bandwidth?

[tautech]

Did you consider buying the lower spec 1102 or 1052 and "hacking" it up to the higher bandwidth?

SDS1102CML+ has just 2 Mpts mem depth and while it's enough to be useful it's not enough to really harness the power of a DSO .......large captures and inspection.
They don't have decodes or 500uV/div sensitivity or a powerful 1 Mpts FFT like any of the X-E models.

SDS1202X-E was the first DSO from Siglent to be fully spec'ed to max BW and include Decodes for free.

[jdutky]

Did you consider buying the lower spec 1102 or 1052 and "hacking" it up to the higher bandwidth?

SDS1102CML+ has just 2 Mpts mem depth and while it's enough to be useful it's not enough to really harness the power of a DSO .......large captures and inspection.
They don't have decodes or 500uV/div sensitivity or a powerful 1 Mpts FFT like any of the X-E models.

SDS1202X-E was the first DSO from Siglent to be fully spec'ed to max BW and include Decodes for free.

By "lower spec 1102 or 1052" I was referring to the 1102x-e or the (apparently imaginary) 1052x-e.

Does the 1102x-e (and 1104x-e) also include the decodes for free?

[tautech]

Did you consider buying the lower spec 1102 or 1052 and "hacking" it up to the higher bandwidth?

SDS1102CML+ has just 2 Mpts mem depth and while it's enough to be useful it's not enough to really harness the power of a DSO .......large captures and inspection.
They don't have decodes or 500uV/div sensitivity or a powerful 1 Mpts FFT like any of the X-E models.

SDS1202X-E was the first DSO from Siglent to be fully spec'ed to max BW and include Decodes for free.

By "lower spec 1102 or 1052" I was referring to the 1102x-e or the (apparently imaginary) 1052x-e.

Does the 1102x-e (and 1104x-e) also include the decodes for free?

No such models available to the western markets. SDS1202X-E is the cheapest model albeit 200 MHz in the X-E series.

In the X-E series of DSO's only SDS1202X-E, SDS1104/1204X-E and SDS2202X-E and SDS2352X-E are available to us. Yes they all offer free decodes.

Edit
And BTW, only the SDS1202X-E (the very first X-E model) doesn't offer the additional features I mentioned earlier, Bode Plot, (MSO, AWG, WiFi < 3 options) and the webserver whereas all other X-E do.

[jdutky]

Does the 1102x-e (and 1104x-e) also include the decodes for free?

No such models available to the western markets. SDS1202X-E is the cheapest model albeit 200 MHz in the X-E series.

In the X-E series of DSO's only SDS1202X-E, SDS1104/1204X-E and SDS2202X-E and SDS2352X-E are available to us. Yes they all offer free decodes.

Edit
And BTW, only the SDS1202X-E (the very first X-E model) doesn't offer the additional features I mentioned earlier, Bode Plot, (MSO, AWG, WiFi < 3 options) and the webserver whereas all other X-E do.

Well, that certainly makes my decision a lot easier than I had thought it was going to be. If my choice is between the 1104x-e and the 1204x-e and I can hack the 1104 up to 200MHz, then I should save my pennies and break out a serial cable.

Thanks for setting me straight on this.

[CharlotteSwiss]

I don't understand why the producers play the hackers game; let's face it, if they wanted the Siglent engineers would not allow a lower model to be upgraded to the higher model with a hack; this policy makes no sense, it could be unfair to those who buy the superior model without the help of hackers ...