what an oscilloscope recommended for a woman passionate about electronics?

[CharlotteSwiss]

Beware people who mocks trivial questions. You may find that they really ignore how to answer them. Trivial questions often require a deep understanding of the basic principles. That's why really talented teachers are so rare.

absolute truth, many people surround you every day, but the one who can teach you something is not easy to meet; but it exists, and when you meet it is always a pleasure!

[CharlotteSwiss]

Just did 40, yes 40 screenshots with a new SDS1202X-E without issue. 
Fast presses without waiting for the saving message to disappear or slow presses made no difference. Several different usage modes and settings too and all without error.
It may be the USB stick you use, mine are all formatted in FAT32 and this one is a Strontuim 8GB that I've had for some years and I only bought them as they were very cheap, just a few $ ea IIRC.
All I can suggest is you try some other brands of USB sticks.

it could be, evidently there is some internal input in the usb circuit of the oscilloscope that does not digest certain sticks perhaps; at home I have 3 keys, all fat32 (2, however, are 16Gb, one 8Gb), the problem was repeated in all at random.
In that discussion however it is interesting that the user reported that by returning to the previous firmware, the bug disappeared.
Always reading in those discussions, I saw that formatting was recommended for 4kcluster; I see that my win 8.1 formatted them to 8k, now I have set 4k; for now after 3 times no problem, let's see how it goes ..
 

[tautech]

it could be, evidently there is some internal input in the usb circuit of the oscilloscope that does not digest certain sticks perhaps; at home I have 3 keys, all fat32 (2, however, are 16Gb, one 8Gb), the problem was repeated in all at random.
In that discussion however it is interesting that the user reported that by returning to the previous firmware, the bug disappeared.
Always reading in those discussions, I saw that formatting was recommended for 4kcluster; I see that my win 8.1 formatted them to 8k, now I have set 4k; for now after 3 times no problem, let's see how it goes ..
 

Fingers crossed that fixes all USB problems. Please keep us informed on the outcome.

I think you read that post from rf-loop, a wise now retired EE currently stuck in northern China by CV and hoping soon to return to his homeland Finland where he is the local Siglent distributor.

[CharlotteSwiss]

Fingers crossed that fixes all USB problems. Please keep us informed on the outcome.

I think you read that post from rf-loop, a wise now retired EE currently stuck in northern China by CV and hoping soon to return to his homeland Finland where he is the local Siglent distributor.

I will not fail to keep the key situation updated 

Of course I read the rf-loop message, I took a cue from him on the 4k for formatting.
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

Fingers crossed that fixes all USB problems. Please keep us informed on the outcome.

formatting to 4k did not help, the problem repeated itself; the sticks I use are sandisk!
I should try with sticks with reduced capacity (about 2Gb) but there are almost no more; maybe it could help.
I hold back in switching to the previous firmware, although I would be anxious to see if it really would no longer have this problem; but changing firmware backwards is not my intention, so I don't.
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

back to the measurement called Stdev (standard deviation), mostly for fussiness, I will certainly live without ...
Previously I wrote that as the Stdev value I could have kept the one in the statistics (st-dev column) good but it is not right, that would be the st-dev value that concerns the Stdev measurement.
My curiosity, however, was attracted by the Siglent manual: as you can see in the attached image (top screen of the image), in the Siglent manual it is clear that in All measure the Stdev value is identical to the RMS value, when instead it should be. wait very low stdev values ​​...
In the screen in the center of the image you can see the choice of the Stdev parameter in Type, with the description (yes, we mean that that value is standard deviation).
Still in the image, my measurement of the compensation wave in Av coupling, as seen both in the statistics and in All measure, the Stdev value is similar to the RMS value.
It would be curious to ask the Siglent technicians where they went wrong; or what they mean by Stdev, given that it detects a rather high value and close to the rms measurements of the signal .. 

[rstofer]

Siglent may be right because RMS is the same as Standard Deviation when the mean is zero which it often (always?) is for AC signals or, I guess, AC coupled signals where the DC component is removed.


https://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Root+mean+square

Physical scientists often use the term "root mean square" as a synonym for standard deviation when it can be assumed the input signal has zero mean, i.e., referring to the square root of the mean squared deviation of a signal from a given baseline or fit.[5][6] This is useful for electrical engineers in calculating the "AC only" RMS of a signal. Standard deviation being the root mean square of a signal's variation about the mean, rather than about 0, the DC component is removed (i.e. RMS(signal) = Stdev(signal) if the mean signal is 0). A special case of this, particularly helpful in electrical engineering, is given above.

I had been thinking this might be the case because of the similarity in the calculations but I don't do statistics.

[rstofer]

Fingers crossed that fixes all USB problems. Please keep us informed on the outcome.

formatting to 4k did not help, the problem repeated itself; the sticks I use are sandisk!
I should try with sticks with reduced capacity (about 2Gb) but there are almost no more; maybe it could help.
I hold back in switching to the previous firmware, although I would be anxious to see if it really would no longer have this problem; but changing firmware backwards is not my intention, so I don't.
 

I haven't chased it down the rabbit hole but most scopes also have remote PC software which can be connected with LAN or USB.  I wonder if this allows the PC to do the printing.  According to the Rigol manual, the scope will drive a printer directly via USB but I seriously question how it knows which printer driver to use and I have no idea what printer drivers it has.

You might do a search over in the Test Equipment forum to see if any LAN related entries show up. 

Or, we can wait for Tautech!  He'll know...

[CharlotteSwiss]

I haven't chased it down the rabbit hole but most scopes also have remote PC software which can be connected with LAN or USB.  I wonder if this allows the PC to do the printing.  According to the Rigol manual, the scope will drive a printer directly via USB but I seriously question how it knows which printer driver to use and I have no idea what printer drivers it has.

You might do a search over in the Test Equipment forum to see if any LAN related entries show up. 

Or, we can wait for Tautech!  He'll know...

as soon as I arrive at the LAN section, and rear USB port for PC software I will see; the key to be inserted on the front is still the most direct / fastest option. 

[CharlotteSwiss]

Siglent may be right because RMS is the same as Standard Deviation when the mean is zero which it often (always?) is for AC signals or, I guess, AC coupled signals where the DC component is removed.


https://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Root+mean+square

Physical scientists often use the term "root mean square" as a synonym for standard deviation when it can be assumed the input signal has zero mean, i.e., referring to the square root of the mean squared deviation of a signal from a given baseline or fit.[5][6] This is useful for electrical engineers in calculating the "AC only" RMS of a signal. Standard deviation being the root mean square of a signal's variation about the mean, rather than about 0, the DC component is removed (i.e. RMS(signal) = Stdev(signal) if the mean signal is 0). A special case of this, particularly helpful in electrical engineering, is given above.

I had been thinking this might be the case because of the similarity in the calculations but I don't do statistics.

attention, then maybe I try again: the compensation signal has a dc offset of about 1.5v: even if I set dc coupling, it shows a Stdev of about 1.5v if I remember correctly, then I see
But if I'm not mistaken even with online sine signals, it reports too high stdev values.
Then I see better 

[CharlotteSwiss]

As you can see from the attached image, even in dc coupling the Stdev value is not what it should be a standard deviation, but in this case it reflects the Vm.
And as seen above, also in the Siglent manual the Stdev value has the value approximately as RMS in the alternating wave.
It should be understood if this is an error, or if Stdev has another meaning, but standard deviation should have only one meaning!
Tauch should have privileged contact with Siglent engineers, they could give an answer.
I'm almost curious .. 
good night

[2N3055]

Stdev is what it is. It is a calculation....What is important is Stdev of WHAT.

If you calculate STDEV of input data you will get what is popularly called AC RMS, the RMS value only of AC part of signal.
"Normal" RMS is RMS value of both AC and DC component. On multimeter the call it AC+DC RMS.
Mean measurement is DC component.  And it all works together, as you can calculate AC+DC RMS by  taking Mean (DC) , calculate square of it, take AC RMS, calculate square of it, and then add those two squared values, and take square root of that sum. And you will get AC+DC RMS....

That is measurements of signal.  Statistics is not statistics of signal. It is statistics of MEASUREMENTS of signal.
So statistics of frequency measurements is statistics of how signal frequency changed with time, not signal voltage itself....
So STDEV in stat of STDEV measurements is a measurement how AC RMS signal changed with time, how stable was amplitude of signal, minus DC offset....

[CharlotteSwiss]

Stdev is what it is. It is a calculation....What is important is Stdev of WHAT.

If you calculate STDEV of input data you will get what is popularly called AC RMS, the RMS value only of AC part of signal.
"Normal" RMS is RMS value of both AC and DC component. On multimeter the call it AC+DC RMS.
Mean measurement is DC component.  And it all works together, as you can calculate AC+DC RMS by  taking Mean (DC) , calculate square of it, take AC RMS, calculate square of it, and then add those two squared values, and take square root of that sum. And you will get AC+DC RMS....

That is measurements of signal.  Statistics is not statistics of signal. It is statistics of MEASUREMENTS of signal.
So statistics of frequency measurements is statistics of how signal frequency changed with time, not signal voltage itself....
So STDEV in stat of STDEV measurements is a measurement how AC RMS signal changed with time, how stable was amplitude of signal, minus DC offset....

Thanks 2N3055, it's very kind of you 
perhaps my confusion comes from the fact that I have compared the Stdev measure (indicated in red in the attached image), to the Std-Dev measure (indicated in green in the image).
They can't be the same!
Std-Dev (green arrow in the statistics) represents the deviation from the reference value during the Count, and this is understandable.
Stdev (red arrow in the measurements) therefore represents a voltage measurement called Stdev, quite similar to the RSM or mean measurement; I believe that the denomination is at least inexact or incomplete; but I probably don't understand ...
Thanks for your help.
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

for tauch:I thought that the freezing problem was just pressing the Print button, unfortunately it also happens from the Save menu; I'll try with other usb keys 

[CharlotteSwiss]

I made some test on the type of signal trace: vectors vs Dot.
By default the oscilloscope is set to Vectors, but I have read that with Dot it should have faster acquisition times.
I guess most users use vectors; looking at my attached image, you can see that only with times faster than 50us the dot type trace is visible in dots; with slower times the difference between Vectors and Dot is not distinguished.
Perhaps it would be better to acquire traces with the Dot setting and not vectors ...

[tautech]

I made some test on the type of signal trace: vectors vs Dot.
By default the oscilloscope is set to Vectors, but I have read that with Dot it should have faster acquisition times.
I guess most users use vectors; looking at my attached image, you can see that only with times faster than 50us the dot type trace is visible in dots; with slower times the difference between Vectors and Dot is not distinguished.
Perhaps it would be better to acquire traces with the Dot setting and not vectors ...

If you find using Dots suits then by all means use them as they each represent the true sampled data points from the ADC without the interpolation that a vector display requires.
For repetitive waveforms using dots works just fine however for fast events especially at faster timebase settings there are occasions when a capture contains so few dots that it becomes hard to decipher the waveform.
In general use, dots are good and only captures sometimes suffer from the lack of interpolation a vector display offers. Higher sampling rates of faster/better scopes help overcome most issues using dot mode. 

[2N3055]

Stdev is what it is. It is a calculation....What is important is Stdev of WHAT.

If you calculate STDEV of input data you will get what is popularly called AC RMS, the RMS value only of AC part of signal.
"Normal" RMS is RMS value of both AC and DC component. On multimeter the call it AC+DC RMS.
Mean measurement is DC component.  And it all works together, as you can calculate AC+DC RMS by  taking Mean (DC) , calculate square of it, take AC RMS, calculate square of it, and then add those two squared values, and take square root of that sum. And you will get AC+DC RMS....

That is measurements of signal.  Statistics is not statistics of signal. It is statistics of MEASUREMENTS of signal.
So statistics of frequency measurements is statistics of how signal frequency changed with time, not signal voltage itself....
So STDEV in stat of STDEV measurements is a measurement how AC RMS signal changed with time, how stable was amplitude of signal, minus DC offset....

Thanks 2N3055, it's very kind of you 
perhaps my confusion comes from the fact that I have compared the Stdev measure (indicated in red in the attached image), to the Std-Dev measure (indicated in green in the image).
They can't be the same!
Std-Dev (green arrow in the statistics) represents the deviation from the reference value during the Count, and this is understandable.
Stdev (red arrow in the measurements) therefore represents a voltage measurement called Stdev, quite similar to the RSM or mean measurement; I believe that the denomination is at least inexact or incomplete; but I probably don't understand ...
Thanks for your help.
 

You're welcome..

Mathematically, scope is doing Stdev calculation on input signal to get value of AC RMS, and then it's doing statistics of measurements, to calculate how measurements are changing with time, and in statistics it, among other things, calculate Stdev, Mean etc of accumulated measurements. It is perfectly correct, but confusing....
But as long as you understand, you will get used to it and then there won't be problem.
Even very inexpensive digital scopes are very complicated and powerful, and you need time to learn it all..
And even then, I have a shortcut to manual for my Keysight 3000T on my computer desktop.. Every now and then I go and look up something..
Take care,
Siniša

[CharlotteSwiss]

thanks tauch and Sinisa, now I'm going to work, late in the evening I can understand your answers
 

[borjam]

But as long as you understand, you will get used to it and then there won't be problem.
Even very inexpensive digital scopes are very complicated and powerful, and you need time to learn it all..
And even then, I have a shortcut to manual for my Keysight 3000T on my computer desktop.. Every now and then I go and look up something..

Indeed, and if you begin to try other oscilloscope models you will notice that each manufacturer can make different design decisions that translate into subtle and not so subtle differences in behavior.

For example, Rigol and Siglent treat the "dots" display mode in an entirely different way. I think Siglent does the right thing but surely someone will prefer Rigol's approach (applying interpolation even to the dots display, while Siglent does not).

[CharlotteSwiss]

If you find using Dots suits then by all means use them as they each represent the true sampled data points from the ADC without the interpolation that a vector display requires.
For repetitive waveforms using dots works just fine however for fast events especially at faster timebase settings there are occasions when a capture contains so few dots that it becomes hard to decipher the waveform.
In general use, dots are good and only captures sometimes suffer from the lack of interpolation a vector display offers. Higher sampling rates of faster/better scopes help overcome most issues using dot mode.

thanks tauch; I would say that I can use dots almost always, except maybe for single events with fast times; it must also be said that if you use dots, and the waveform in Stop is not satisfactory, you can set vectors which will adjust the visible trace ...
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

You're welcome..

Mathematically, scope is doing Stdev calculation on input signal to get value of AC RMS, and then it's doing statistics of measurements, to calculate how measurements are changing with time, and in statistics it, among other things, calculate Stdev, Mean etc of accumulated measurements. It is perfectly correct, but confusing....
But as long as you understand, you will get used to it and then there won't be problem.
Even very inexpensive digital scopes are very complicated and powerful, and you need time to learn it all..
And even then, I have a shortcut to manual for my Keysight 3000T on my computer desktop.. Every now and then I go and look up something..
Take care,
Siniša

practically the measurement STdev .. would be the average statistic of the AC RMS measurements; in order not to complicate life they should have called STacRMS .. 

I've been studying the manual for months, and everything I learn I write in a text: that will be my manual, hours and hours of study
enclosed in 90 pages written by me 
thank you
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

If you calculate STDEV of input data you will get what is popularly called AC RMS, the RMS value only of AC part of signal.
"Normal" RMS is RMS value of both AC and DC component. On multimeter the call it AC+DC RMS.
Mean measurement is DC component.  And it all works together, as you can calculate AC+DC RMS by  taking Mean (DC) , calculate square of it, take AC RMS, calculate square of it, and then add those two squared values, and take square root of that sum. And you will get AC+DC RMS....

that's right, it really is! It would have been enough for me to measure the signal with the DMM to understand each measurement what it corresponded to: mean <Dc (I already knew this); Stdev <ACrms; RMS <AC + DC
thank you
 

[CharlotteSwiss]

I was looking at the Color Grade setting of the siglent display; the manual says:

Color temperature adopts the change of waveforms’ color to reflect the change of the waveforms’ appearing probability. The greater the probability that the waveform appears, the warmer the color is; the smaller the waveform appears, the colder the color is.
The picture below shows the change of color from cold to warm. Press the Display button on the front panel, and then press the Color softkey and set the option to On to turn on the color temperature function. You can compare the waveform’s color with the picture below to just the probability that the waveform appears.

If you look at my attached image, in the upper part the signal without Color Grade, in the lower part with Color Grade: I see that the larger signal trace indicates it with warmer colors, while the fainter signal trace with colder colors !
But what could this function be useful for? what can you tell me about the signal?
Or is this function only artistic? 

thanks
Char 

I add: maybe warm colors could indicate some noise or slightly unstable voltage values?

[akimpowerscr]

...
I've been studying the manual for months, and everything I learn I write in a text: that will be my manual, hours and hours of study
enclosed in 90 pages written by me 
thank you
 

Congratulations on your efforts.

But there are so many subjects to study in electricity and electronics that it may be unconstructive to spend months just studying a small part of all the possibilities of your new oscilloscope.

I am sure that with your intelligence you could have learned to use an oscilloscope like the HAMEG 203 in less than an hour.

Don't you think you've gone in the wrong direction?

Excuse me for this intervention, I am new to this forum, but tried to read the 33 pages of this topic and gave up .....

[CharlotteSwiss]

a beginner learns to use an oscilloscope in 1 hour? it took me a week to figure out the trigger; FFt also took me a long time. And all the rest...
Maybe some people smarter than me take less to learn, we are not all the same 
The topic could be of interest to those who had never seen an oscilloscope yesterday, today buy it and start from scratch; along the way the less easy things for a beginner have been deepened, always bringing the solution back.