Author Topic: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?  (Read 2428 times)

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Offline newtekuserTopic starter

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Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« on: July 19, 2024, 12:42:33 am »
I purchased four different brands of 100uF ceramic capacitors from Mouser, each reads between 60uF to 70uF capacitance depending on frequency using my DER-DE 5000 LCR meter. I do know all have +/- 20% tolerance but that should put me close to 80uF.
My LCR meter works perfectly as it reads 100uF for electrolytic capacitors.

Can someone please explain what is going on here?

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/581-08056D107MAT2A
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/963-MSASJ21GBB5107MT
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/81-GRM21BR60J107ME5K
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/187-CL21A107MQYNNWE
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2024, 01:16:33 am »
Check what frequency your LCR is testing at.
Try with the lowest frequency.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2024, 01:20:30 am by Psi »
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Offline newtekuserTopic starter

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2024, 01:22:42 am »
Check what frequency your LCR is testing at.
Try with the lowest frequency.

I tried all frequencies and the highest reading I get is 70uF.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2024, 03:44:56 am »
Try bringing them up to soldering temperature, and make sure the voltage of measurement is correct. If your meter's manual doesn't say voltage/current of test, try observing it with an oscilloscope.  Also take note of DC voltage bias.

Ceramics aren't good at bulk capacitance.  Either use a cheaper, bulkier type like electrolytic, or design your converters to need less -- use higher Fsw and faster error amp.

And you can always stack parts in parallel, but that quickly takes up a lot of space, whereas electrolytics can grow upward.

Tim
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Offline Psi

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2024, 03:49:20 am »
and make sure the voltage of measurement is correct. If your meter's manual doesn't say voltage/current of test, try observing it with an oscilloscope. 

I had a look already, it says 0.5V RMS in the manual
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Offline newtekuserTopic starter

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2024, 04:16:53 am »
Try bringing them up to soldering temperature, and make sure the voltage of measurement is correct. If your meter's manual doesn't say voltage/current of test, try observing it with an oscilloscope.  Also take note of DC voltage bias.

Ceramics aren't good at bulk capacitance.  Either use a cheaper, bulkier type like electrolytic, or design your converters to need less -- use higher Fsw and faster error amp.

And you can always stack parts in parallel, but that quickly takes up a lot of space, whereas electrolytics can grow upward.

Tim

I used hot air gun on them for ~20 seconds, now the capacitance is 85uF and 87uF even after they cooled off.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2024, 04:23:12 am by newtekuser »
 
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Online ArdWar

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2024, 04:43:12 am »
That looks about right.

For now I'd still consider 100uF at 0805 as novelty gimmick part tbf. Pick bigger package if you want more consistent capacitance. Maybe pick better dielectric too.
 
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Offline Whales

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2024, 05:11:32 am »
100uF in 0805! 

https://www.murata.com/en-us/products/productdetail?partno=GRM21BR60J107ME15%23

DC resistance seems a bit like an electrolytic but at higher freqs is better.  I'm surprised that it can handle 7 amps RMS with such a high value in such a tiny package.  One of these shorting in-circuit would look amazing.
 
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Offline newtekuserTopic starter

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2024, 05:28:15 am »
I'm not constraint on space so can go higher to an 1206. In fact I think the 0805 footprint will barely accommodate the 1206 so I don't have to redo the PCB.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2024, 05:36:10 am »
You can get 220uF  1206 if you are ok with 4V
That will be above 100uF.

Assuming all you need is capacity, then cost wise you will always be better to make it out of many 10uF caps.
At least at the hobby level. 10uF caps are just so widely mass-produced they are cheap as dirt.
So 10 or 20 in parallel is not normally an issue except when you are space limited.
10uF 6.3V are like 0.3 cents each (LCSC)
verses like 30 cents for 220uF.  100x the cost for only 22x capacity increase.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 11:35:26 am by Psi »
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Offline PGPG

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2024, 07:55:01 am »
I do know all have +/- 20% tolerance
....
Can someone please explain what is going on here?
....
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/187-CL21A107MQYNNWE

20% is only initial tolerance.
Open datasheet of capacitor I left from your list at page 14 and have in mind that it is only example. For higher capacitance drop in capacitance can be much higher. If you will measure it with 1mV signal with DC=0V you will probably not notice the effect of this chart.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2024, 09:12:12 am »
You are seeing the effects of DC bias, and tolerance.
Never select a large value ceramic capacitor without investigating what it will actually do at your voltage level. There are no "rules of thumb" they all behave differently. You need to look for actual part numbers.
 
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Offline watchmaker

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2024, 12:39:55 pm »
Dave explains what everyone is talking about:



Regards,

Dewey
 
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Offline shabaz

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2024, 02:15:56 pm »
Their resonant frequency is pretty low, just a few hundred kHz. I don't think they can be considered very general-purpose components as a result.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2024, 02:27:22 pm »
These high capacity ceramics have terrible DC bias characteristics. The plot below, taken from the data sheet, says it all.
 
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Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2024, 03:57:13 pm »
Only 20% of capacitance left at 5V.

That is getting lose to where the capacitor has less stored energy at higher voltage.  I wonder what that does with other variables such as dielectric absorption.

The Murata datasheet has another gotcha:

When AC voltage or pulse voltage is applied, the peak-to-peak voltage shall not exceed the rated DC voltage.

 
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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2024, 04:01:27 pm »
Their resonant frequency is pretty low, just a few hundred kHz. I don't think they can be considered very general-purpose components as a result.

That doesn't matter. Check the magnitude impedance at the same point. It's going to be a pretty damn good bypass up to say 10MHz. Which is true of any 0805 chip of at least modest value.

Tim
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Offline MathWizard

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2024, 05:04:07 pm »
I find it strange that my LCR meter doesn't test DC capacitance, but yeah it's only powered from 12V, but that's more than my DMM.

Some day I want to make some other test circuits for capacitors, or maybe try and mod them onto my MS-5308 meter. I'm guessing people have hacked them before.

Rating and Derating for Low-Voltage Multilayer Ceramic Capacitors (MLCCs)
https://nepp.nasa.gov/files/25843/2013-Teverovsky-pres-MLCCsBME-n263.pdf
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2024, 09:02:12 am »
Their resonant frequency is pretty low, just a few hundred kHz. I don't think they can be considered very general-purpose components as a result.

SRF is the most widely misunderstood parameter. Ignore if you are not 100% sure you understand what it means. Instead, you should be interested about amount of capacitance, ESR, and ESL. For MLCCs, ESL is basically always directly from the package size, so for minimizing it, choosing smallest package is the key.

Simplified, SRF is ratio of ESL to capacitance. If you add capacitance, high-frequency performance isn't getting any better, because it's limited by ESL. Increasing C while keeping ESL constant causes SRF to plummet, giving an impression to young players that high-frequency performance is "getting worse", when in fact it's only not getting any better, but being the same as with a smaller capacitance part (in same package size so same ESL).

For this reason, largest C in smallest package is optimal for bypassing, for both low and high frequencies, and paralleling MLCCs of different capacitances (especially in same package size) is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 09:03:43 am by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2024, 09:11:57 am »
^Yes, I quite often see datasheets or just people recommending placing a few capacitors of different capacitance (about an order of magnitude for each step) connected in parallel for decoupling with no mention they should be of smaller dimensions for smaller capacitance. Sometimes I see capacitors of the same size in mass produced devices. While in fact you should put the smallest one closest to the IC with the lowest inductance path. So 3 capacitors of the same dimensions are not that much better than using just one of the larger capacitance.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 09:22:03 am by wraper »
 

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2024, 09:39:32 am »
Mmm, reciprocal product (w = 1/(sqrt(LC))), not ratio.

Tim
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Offline shabaz

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2024, 01:26:16 pm »
For this reason, largest C in smallest package is optimal for bypassing, for both low and high frequencies, and paralleling MLCCs of different capacitances (especially in same package size) is ridiculous.

Hi,

That's very good. However, on the topic of capacitor size, it's not really the capacitor "size", it's the inductance. And that's being pedantic since of course size will have an impact except in a few and in some contrived circumstances.

Similarly, it's not really the SRF, but it is what we can find in datasheets and charts, so there's nothing wrong with using the information we are given, and it's usually a very good illustration to see why you're going to get no improvement at higher frequencies. Since the dimensions/construction is not changed, then you will still be limited by the inductance, and that's easy to see by looking at impedance charts and realizing that the large capacitance value (in the same physical size/construction) won't get you an improvement because once you hit SRF, the impedance rises (and sure, you can still use the capacitor, I don't think anyone said you couldn't). But you could use a lower value capacitance. You could just as easily use a smaller capacitance in a physically larger size, and in parallel with a lower inductance capacitor (let's say 0603 or 0402), and still achieve lower ESR if that was the goal (although you might want to simulate it). That's why I don't think they are very general-purpose. At least, I have dozens of different value and size tantalum capacitors for instance, a few books of them, but far fewer MLCC of such high capacitance (zero in my case). And there could be (are) good reasons to not use those sometimes too. In other words, 'general-purpose' might mean different things to others with different perspectives.

 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2024, 03:22:07 pm »
When considering a Capacitor(s) for Decoupling thinking of impedance magnitude (Z) makes sense when considering Capacitance effects, especially true for Decoupling Specific Frequencies or Frequency ranges.

Since Inductance follows device length, then shorter (smaller) devices generally have lower Effective Series Inductance or ESL and lower Z at Higher Frequencies. This is shown when investigated SMD Capacitors which are available in the same package size, but two different orientations. When rotated 90 degrees to the general L/W orientation where L>W the effective ESL is lower and thus higher overall SRF.

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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2024, 10:52:34 pm »
Wide format, and even LGA (checkerboard pinout), are widely used for interposer or back-of-die/co-pack bypassing of modern SoCs, CPUs, etc.

Conversely: have seen wide-format chips used all too often with a lazy dogleg and single via to each plane, lol.  You aren't gaining anything if you aren't also using the minimum-inductance connection (e.g. a pair of vias flanking each pad, as close as possible given pad/drill/via-in-pad rules, and tenting if used).

To be completely clear, inductance goes as µhl/w, for height above plane h, length l and width w.  In PCB, mu will be µ_0.  "Goes as", because this is true in the thin/wide-stripline case, where side fringing and end connections can be ignored.  Neither of which is really quite true in a capacitor geometry, but the general trend remains.

You also tend to see very thin chips in interposers, which are themselves PCBs made with quite thin and fine-pitch geometry, hence can have quite low Zo, low stray L, while fanning out quite dense structures like ICs.  Again, low h makes for low L.

The PDN (power distribution network) design of a modern BGA/LGA device, spans many tiers.  The die itself has to handle harmonics into the 10s of GHz, and this is largely handled by nearby gates themselves -- with careful design, it can be ensured that only a modest fraction of gates in a general region are toggled each cycle, and thus the static ones (that edge) have capacitance that acts as bypass for the neighbors that are switching.  Further up the die stackup, alternating metal grids are used to distribute power, contributing much capacitance in the process (I don't know actual figures, but I would guess this can total several µF; they can interleave a lot here!).  Going from chip to interposer, power bandwidth is in the 100s of MHz to low GHz, and a fine pitch PCB is required, with low profile, wide-format chip caps.  Finally at the board level, lands/bumps can only ensure up to maybe 100MHz or so bandwidth -- there's simply too much length between PCB and package, at the impedances demanded, to have any effect above 100MHz or so, even if the whole package were an alternating checkerboard of balls -- the fine tiers of on-package filtering are mandatory for practical commercial application!

On the upside, the on-package filtering relaxes PCB layout, so that VCORE/VIO/etc. and GND can be placed in more orderly fashion (square arrays, rings, rows, etc. of each connection), and fairly large caps placed on the board (say, 10s uF).  Still further away, bulk caps can be placed, perhaps 100s uF polymers, and finally down at a power bandwidth of 100s kHz, maybe low MHz, the PoL converter (across however many phases) supplies VCORE from whatever other bulk source is in use (which might in turn be in the 10s kHz bandwidth, and ultimately supplied from, say, a PFC reservoir capacitor finally with bandwidth in the single-Hz range, or a battery in the mHz to µHz range).

Tim
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Trouble finding 100uF ceramic capacitors, do they exist?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2024, 11:19:24 pm »
These high capacity ceramics have terrible DC bias characteristics. The plot below, taken from the data sheet, says it all.

Sure but that has no relevant effect when OP was testing at 0.5V AC.
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