Recreating mod chip designed for the Playstation 1.

[Katcher]

Now with that out of the way leaves the elepehant in the room...how do I actually program the fucking PIC12F508? And because screw doing it the easy way and buying a programmer, imma fucking build one because it's a learning experience and it sounds fun.

I’ve read through this thread and seen the versions of the PIC12 break out your making, for a first board it alright!
Since you don’t know much about the embedded world ill help you out, DONT MAKE YOUR OWN PROGRAMMER!!!!

Its so much work to do this and its way to complicated for a beginner like you. I dont think you knwo how much work it is to design a programmer. making a break out board is one thing. Designing the board for the programmer, writing the code is a lot of work.

If your experienced with PIC's it wouldn’t take more than a few days but if your inexperienced with electronics design and embedded programming then it would be suicide, it would take so much time and you wouldn’t learn much since the difficulty level is much too high for a beginner.
It better to slowly build your knowledge than immediately jump on the hard stuff not understanding the basics.

Programmer like this is cheap and readily available so it’s just a time waste.

I’m no pro but I have done a fair bit of PCB design and µC work.
Take what I say with a grain of salt

There's a link to a schematic for one a few posts back along with a program to use. Plus I have the Hex I need for my model of PS1(if that's the code you were speaking about) anyway since it's readily available amongst the modding community. I'd be way in over my head trying to make one completely from scratch. I can use that and make whatever alterations for assembling it on Protoboard. Like replacing the USB cable with a micro USB socket for 5v power. I can assume the PIC can only be programmed over Serial and not USB is due 12v needing to be supplied to the MCLR/Vpp pin? That much I can kinda guess since USB, to my knowledge, only supplies 5v. Even with that said I wonder if there is a way to do it over USB just for convenience sake.

[KL27x]

If you have a computer with a parallel port, you can make a very simple programmer called a TAIT programmer. This is supported by free programming software that is probably still around.

The TAIT is essentially just a voltage buffer to protect the parallel port with the addition of a voltage translation to 9-13V for the high voltage programming line. The software pretty much does everything through the parallel port, and the only reason it can't program a PIC directly through parallel port is lack of the high voltage Vpp. If you were confident on your wiring, you could literally connect the PIC directly to the correct pings of a parallel port, and for the programming line, take that line, use it to drive a transistor to switch a 9V battery to the MCLR pin.

That's how I programmed my first PICs, incidentally. I can't remember the software I used, anymore, though.

There was another very simple programmer starting with a J. It was made for the other stupid connector on the back of old computers.  D25? Can't remember what that is, even.

Microchip publishes the full schematics of their PICKIT2 and I think they host downloads of the firmware for the PIC18F2550. (If they don't, I have it). There are also some people who have made and published schemmies for simplified versions that have only fixed voltage power to target.

I have made full versions of the PICKIT2 (with some minor additions), and I didn't even know how to use PCB software as well as you already do. Gottas say it took a few long nights to finish the layout, and even longer to populate all those parts. I was dumb enough to save a bunch of parts as if I'd just make more as needed, lol. I shoulda made them all back when. 

*software might have been called "EasyPIC." I'm not sure. If you google TAIT, you will probalby find a software. And the 12F508 was a flagship baseline PIC from 20 years ago; it is definitely supported by these old softwares.

[Katcher]

If you have a computer with a parallel port, you can make a very simple programmer called a TAIT programmer. This is supported by free programming software that is probably still around.

The TAIT is essentially just a voltage buffer to protect the parallel port with the addition of a voltage translation to 9-13V for the high voltage programming line. The software pretty much does everything through the parallel port, and the only reason it can't program a PIC directly through parallel port is lack of the high voltage Vpp. If you were confident on your wiring, you could literally connect the PIC directly to the correct pings of a parallel port, and for the programming line, take that line, use it to drive a transistor to switch a 9V battery to the MCLR pin.

That's how I programmed my first PICs, incidentally. I can't remember the software I used, anymore, though.

There was another very simple programmer starting with a J. It was made for the other stupid connector on the back of old computers.  D25? Can't remember what that is, even.

Microchip publishes the full schematics of their PICKIT2 and I think they host downloads of the firmware for the PIC18F2550. (If they don't, I have it). There are also some people who have made and published schemmies for simplified versions that have only fixed voltage power to target.

I have made full versions of the PICKIT2 (with some minor additions), and I didn't even know how to use PCB software as well as you already do. Gottas say it took a few long nights to finish the layout, and even longer to populate all those parts. I was dumb enough to save a bunch of parts as if I'd just make more as needed, lol. I shoulda made them all back when. 

*software might have been called "EasyPIC." I'm not sure. If you google TAIT, you will probalby find a software. And the 12F508 was a flagship baseline PIC from 20 years ago; it is definitely supported by these old softwares.

Okay so most of that went over my head. What I managed to get though was that there's a a serial programmer that I believe is known as a JDM programmer(of which I have a schematic of) and a parallel programmer called a TAIT programmer. I know of Microchip's PICKIT thingamabobs(Fuck me this is an actual word?) but don't know if I can use it as an alternative to a JDM/TAIT programmer or if it's to be used in conjunction with one. I have neither a Serial or a Parallel port on my PC since it's using an MSI board from 2017 so if there is a way to do this over USB I'll have to go for that. I googled EasyPIC but instead of software I found a PIC development board but it's whatever $150 equates to in GBP. Screw that. I'm a tight bastard.

I did a little bit more digging around and came across a USB PIC Programmer. http://usbpicprog.org/ Would this be of use to me?

[KL27x]

If you don't have a DSUB or Parallel port, then you can't use the simple TAIT or JDM programmers to essentially program the chip with the computer, directly.

The USB programmer you linked has the same problem with building a PICKIT. The heart is a microcontroller which itself needs to be flashed.

I don't know a way you can make your own USB programmer without having a programmer.

[Katcher]

That...does present a bit of a hurdle. I doubt Serial/Parallel to USB adapters even exist or work if they do?

[james_s]

I think when I made my mod chip I hacked together an adapter that plugged into the parallel port on my PC at the time. Now you can buy a ready to use USB PIC programmer for under $7 shipped from China though, there's no point in trying to build one. That is, assuming they will program the part you're using. That's a frustration I've had with PICs in general, seems like I'm always running into a situation where the part I want to use is not supported by any of the programmers I have.

[Katcher]

I think I just need to buy a PICKIT 3 or the likes for now or even order the PIC12F508's already programmed with the Hex through Microchip. Doesn't even look like my board has a COM header for a Serial port to connect to in the rear of my PC.

[BradC]

I think I just need to buy a PICKIT 3 or the likes for now or even order the PIC12F508's already programmed with the Hex through Microchip. Doesn't even look like my board has a COM header for a Serial port to connect to in the rear of my PC.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PCI-E-PCI-Express-Dual-Serial-DB9-RS232-2-Ports-Controller-Adapter-Card-Gre-G0H6/252875184661

[james_s]

Why buy a serial port and build a programmer when you can just buy a USB programmer for about the same price that will likely support more devices? The problem with a lot of the old legacy programmers is that the software expects direct access to the hardware, which is for the most part a thing of the past with modern operating systems.

[KL27x]

That...does present a bit of a hurdle. I doubt Serial/Parallel to USB adapters even exist or work if they do?

They exist, but they are fundamentally flawed. They will work for some applications but not for this, AFAIK. My vague understanding is that USB protocol introduces interruptions and latency into the equation, so a USB-to-parallel can't do this in real-time.

I recommend you buy a PICIT2 or PICKIT3. And if you want a clone, that's fine, just don't buy a Sure Electronics.
PICKIT2 lost product support, so no modern devices have been added since I don't remember. Maybe something like 2013-14. So PICKIT3 is "better" if you want to do embedded programming with PICs. But to flash stuff, you have to install and load a bloated Java software and make half a million mouse clicks in a maze of mistakes-waiting-to-happen everytime you use it.

[Gyro]

USB parallel ports also aren't capable of the s/w 'bit bash' manipulation like the old LPT ports used to be. Things like Tait rely on this.

[Katcher]

...I recommend you buy a PICIT2 or PICKIT3. And if you want a clone, that's fine, just don't buy a Sure Electronics.

How can I keep an eye out for ones made by Sure Electronics so as to avoid them? Any telltale signs to look out for? Looking at PICKIT3's on Ebay right now and the kinda just look the same.

[KL27x]

They have a solid black case (and are only sold from Sure Electronics seller/store.)
Tommy DVP has the best clones if you want to do programming to go feature with 8 bit pics, out of my experience with the genuine and 3 different clones. It's more stable than even the genuine one I have. (They all crash, eventually, needing a reboot. Some clones this happens nonstop. I have multiple copies of 2 non-Sure clones, and this is not a fluke; it is consistent behavior between the different devices, trying every available firmware suite revision a few years back.)

The Sure Electronics has had major issues with the Vtarget which I dunno if they have ever fixed, satisfactorily. I'm pretty handy, but I never got mine to work at all, despite there is info out there that apparently fixes some of them.

[Katcher]

Well I can't seem to find any Sure Electronic ones on Ebay(good thing I suppose) but I can't seem to find these Tommy DVP ones you mentioned. But even then I guess anyone that isn't a Sure Electronic one is good enough right?

[KL27x]

For your purposes, yeah. The black one was the only one I ever found sketchy.

I took a quite gander at eBay. I thought there may be a difference because you're in scotland, but I think the problem is I'm giving you 4 year old information.

I don't even see the variety I used to. One said "kit3" on the front, instead of "PICKit3." It looks like some of them have died off.

[Katcher]

Good to know any clone will do me. Well I'll certainly make sure to drop an update on everything once the boards, components, and programmer arrives. Right now the only thing I can do is wait.

[oPossum]

For a little bit more money you can get the latest programmer/debugger.

https://www.microchip.com/developmenttools/ProductDetails/PartNO/PG164100

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/pg164100/microchip-technology

[Katcher]

For a little bit more money you can get the latest programmer/debugger.

https://www.microchip.com/developmenttools/ProductDetails/PartNO/PG164100

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/pg164100/microchip-technology

That MPLAB Snap certainly looks interesting. Seeing as it's only £11.48 I might actually go for that.

Actually, looking at the datasheet I'd need to create a board specifically for supplying power to the PIC12F508 I'm using since it require's 12v on the MCLR pin. Something I don't know how to do. I'm better off settling with a PICKIT3 clone or a PICKIT4 is I got the cash.

[Katcher]

So PICKIT3 arrived and I found a pinout diagram for it. My only question now is how do I connect it up with the PIC12F508 I've chosen to use? I have double sided protoboard if needed.

[oPossum]

Code: [Select]

PK3         12F508
-------------------
 1   MCLR   MCLR 4 
 2   Vdd    Vdd  1
 3   Vss    Vss  8
 4   PGD    GP0  7
 5   PGC    GP1  6
 6   LVP    ---  -

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41227E.pdf

[Katcher]

Code: [Select]

PK3         12F508
-------------------
 1   MCLR   MCLR 4 
 2   Vdd    Vdd  1
 3   Vss    Vss  8
 4   PGD    GP0  7
 5   PGC    GP1  6
 6   LVP    ---  -

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41227E.pdf

So can I just get a board that will allow me to socket a SOIC package PIC12F508 into a DIP-8 socket and wire that socket up directly to the pin outs?

[james_s]

Yes, or just tack solder wires to the corresponding pads on your mod chip board and connect those to the programmer, what's what I do for this sort of thing.

If you were going to make a whole load of them, you'd build a test fixture with pogo pins where you just hold the board down or flip a cover down to hold it in place and flash the firmware, pop it out and put the next one in.

[Katcher]

Yes, or just tack solder wires to the corresponding pads on your mod chip board and connect those to the programmer, what's what I do for this sort of thing.

If you were going to make a whole load of them, you'd build a test fixture with pogo pins where you just hold the board down or flip a cover down to hold it in place and flash the firmware, pop it out and put the next one in.

First solution I can do no problem but this pogo pin solution has grabbed my curiosity. The hell is a pogo pin and in what way could I utilise them?

[james_s]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pogo+pins

[Katcher]

Boards arrived. I'm impressed with JLCPCB's quality with such a small 11x11mm PCB. I might need to make a second revision of this design though. 11x11mm is a little too small for me to comfortably work with and I underestimated how thin 0.6mm is for thickness. Maybe go back to a 14x14mm or 15x15mm board with 0.8mm or 1.0mm thickness, keep the pads the size they are too and sort the outline for the IC so I know how to orientate them.

In the meantime though I can certainly use these to get things working.