Author Topic: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please  (Read 40267 times)

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Offline tatel

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2023, 10:44:50 pm »
One more thing: it's not difficult to destroy your scope. Please look for dave's video "How not to blow your oscilloscope" Having a device to test  connected to mains and putting osciloscope probe's cocodrile clip in the wrong place... bang! A $3000 setback. If you are so loaded to consider spending 3000 bucks in just the oscilloscope, I really recommend you to get the (in)famous toyscope to begin with. I will just cost you just a hundred bucks, you'll learn with it all the really basic things unknown to you right now, and then you can spend all the money you have in a much more wise way
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2023, 11:11:33 pm »
The point I am making is that talking in terms of a scope's performance measuring digital waveforms  in terms of the Nth harmonic of an arbitrary fundamental frequency is fundamentally [sic] misguided - and misleading and useless.

The MHz metric is of some use when discussing (for want of a better term) baseband linear analogue waveforms.

But the manufacturers don't state rise time in the promotional literature nor on the unit's front panel.  You and I both know the industry links the two concepts together with a simple constant of 0.35.  That is, Bandwidth * Rise Time = 0.35.  They invent rise time and sell bandwidth.

While the concept of Rise Time carries the most information, it is the least usable for discussions when talking about scopes because they are ALL labeled in Bandwidth.  In most cases, that Bandwidth number can be converted to Rise Time by dividing 0.35 by the Bandwidth.

For the 100 MHz scope, the rise time should be 3.5 ns.

https://www.tek.com/en/support/faqs/how-bandwidth-related-rise-time-oscilloscopes

In the discussion, we also assume that the square wave is symmetric with respect to on and off times.  I have no idea what the series would look like for a signal with 10% on time.  I would have to rethink stuff I learned more than 50 years ago and I'm not sure I understood it even then.

it is actually very obvious, and is shown in the reference I gave: https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2018/05/08/digital-signal-integrity-and-bandwidth-signals-risetime-is-important-period-is-irrelevant/ After you've read that reference, you'll agree it is obvious.

(It shows the spectrum of three waveforms with the same frequency/period. One is a slow edge 50% duty cycle, another is a "digital clock" fast edge 50% duty cycle, and the final one is "digital signal" fast edge 10% duty cycle)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 11:30:01 pm by tggzzz »
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Offline alm

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2023, 01:10:50 am »
Only enterprises that don't want problems and educational institutions don't hack their oscilloscopes.
I'm going to call bullshit on that statement unless you can back it up with data (and not anecdotes). Very few businesses, not just enterprises, will bother hacking a scope to save a few hundred dollars and potentially miss out on warranty and support. And many hobbyists will either not know about it or not bother. The people you see on this forum is only a very tiny fraction of the total customer base.

One more thing: it's not difficult to destroy your scope. Please look for dave's video "How not to blow your oscilloscope" Having a device to test  connected to mains and putting osciloscope probe's cocodrile clip in the wrong place... bang! A $3000 setback.
While that can happen, it's much more likely to trip a fuse / breaker or destroy your circuit. Unless you are using the scopes for high energy circuits where your average mains powered scope has no business being without some special (high voltage differential) probes that would avoid this problem by virtue of not having a ground clip  ;D.

Online Aldo22

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2023, 08:50:08 am »
The problem with it is that it shows some waveform which you cannot believe, because it can show you false waveform, false frequency, etc. Do you realize that? I think no, the same other novice don't realize that he cannot believe to a thing which is shown on this toy. And this is why I don't recommend to buy it.
Good day! A new day and some questions.

Apparently you know the bugs and limitations of my device very well and therefore I would like to investigate the problems you mentioned with your help.

Can you please tell me how to get the DSO2512G to display "false frequencies" within the specified bandwidths?
I've already checked the spectrum from 1Hz to 120MHz and haven't found a "false frequency" yet.
How do I do that?

What do I have to do to see "false waveforms" etc.?
I have already said that depending on the mode, I no longer expect an adequate display of the waveform from 10/20MHz on, that's clear.

I'm really curious to explore the limits of this "crap toy".

I'm fully aware that it has weaknesses. That's to be expected for $80, but I would like to see them for myself!
Can you tell me how?
 
Thank you!

PS Unfortunately I don't have a reference oscilloscope, so there must be other ways.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 08:58:44 am by Aldo22 »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2023, 10:36:07 am »
How do I do that?

just use frequency above ADC Fs/2, it will show you frequency which is below Fs/2 and you will not be able to determine if this is a real frequency or alias.

Normal oscilloscope uses anti-alias low pass filter on the input which has a cut-off at about 20-40 % of ADC bandwidth. So, aliases will be suppressed and frequency which is 2-5 times higher than oscilloscope bandwidth will still be shown properly, but with some attenuation because the are out of oscilloscope bandwidth.

That Chinese toy doesn't have such anti-alias filter, because with such a filter you will get the real bandwidth about 10 MHz, so Chinese guys just don't installed the filter in order to put label "100 MHz bandwidth" on the package. This is why waveforms of a complex signal will be distorted on this toy. And you cannot believe what it shows.

Also note that it can measure frequency above Fs/2 because it doing it on FPGA by using analog comparator instead of ADC output. So, if it measure frequency up to 120 MHz it doesn't means that it shows it's waveform properly up to 120 MHz.

That's to be expected for $80, but I would like to see them for myself!

For this toy, I expect price about 20-30 USD max. And I will not use it as oscilloscope, just as a DIY case with display, CPU and ADC for some DIY project. But it uses Lattice and F1C100, which is not popular for DIY projects. For 80 USD you can buy a real second-hand oscilloscope.

It can be used for RMS voltage measurement, but it's error will be too much and the price is multiple times higher than DMM which can do it with much better precision at much less cost. So, I don't see the real usage for that toy.

Maybe for children as a toy.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 11:02:17 am by radiolistener »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2023, 11:43:43 am »
How do I do that?

just use frequency above ADC Fs/2, it will show you frequency which is below Fs/2 and you will not be able to determine if this is a real frequency or alias.

Normal oscilloscope uses anti-alias low pass filter on the input which has a cut-off at about 20-40 % of ADC bandwidth. So, aliases will be suppressed and frequency which is 2-5 times higher than oscilloscope bandwidth will still be shown properly, but with some attenuation because the are out of oscilloscope bandwidth.

That Chinese toy doesn't have such anti-alias filter, because with such a filter you will get the real bandwidth about 10 MHz, so Chinese guys just don't installed the filter in order to put label "100 MHz bandwidth" on the package. This is why waveforms of a complex signal will be distorted on this toy. And you cannot believe what it shows.

Also note that it can measure frequency above Fs/2 because it doing it on FPGA by using analog comparator instead of ADC output. So, if it measure frequency up to 120 MHz it doesn't means that it shows it's waveform properly up to 120 MHz.

I don't know whether this scope can do it, but there are many sampling and/or digitising scopes that can and do display frequencies far above their sampling frequency. They presume a repetitive signal (which is frequently the case), and take one or more samples per repetition.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline radiolistener

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2023, 11:55:49 am »
I don't know whether this scope can do it, but there are many sampling and/or digitising scopes that can and do display frequencies far above their sampling frequency. They presume a repetitive signal (which is frequently the case), and take one or more samples per repetition.

it requires phase shift for ADC clock or using long sample with sample rate which is not a multiple of the signal frequency. It's too complicated for such device class.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2023, 12:53:13 pm »
@radiolistener
Thank you.
Well, my question wasn't actually what it does outside of the specified bandwidth. I know it shows garbage there.
And I also said that I don't expect an adequate representation of the signal above 10 or so MHz.
That is not new to me and I can live with that.

Thank you!
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2023, 01:03:18 pm »
Well, my question wasn't actually what it does outside of the specified bandwidth. I know it shows garbage there.
And I also said that I don't expect an adequate representation of the signal above 10 or so MHz.

The problem here is that any signal consist of components which are out of oscilloscope bandwidth. This is why proper oscilloscope should process out of band components properly. This is required in order to properly display signal which is within oscilloscope bandwidth.

When oscilloscope cannot handle out of band components properly they appears as a low frequency images and there is no way to distinguish them from a real signal which is within oscilloscope bandwidth. So you cannot believe to the picture which is shown on such invalid "oscilloscope", because it may show you false waveform and may show correct one and you will never know if waveform is false. The only way to check it is to get proper oscilloscope.

This is why I don't recommend to buy such devices, especially for a newbie.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 01:10:27 pm by radiolistener »
 

Offline wasedadoc

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2023, 02:20:27 pm »
The problem here is that any signal consist of components which are out of oscilloscope bandwidth.
Any signal?  Nonsense!
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2023, 02:45:35 pm »
Any signal?  Nonsense!


Yes, any signal has infinite continuous spectrum. This is analog world...

The oscilloscope is a device which is intended to check what is going on with signal.
If you see on the display and cannot say if that waveform is real or fake then such device is not oscilloscope, but a toy.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 02:49:15 pm by radiolistener »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2023, 02:46:33 pm »
This is why I don't recommend to buy such devices, especially for a newbie.
Your technical explanations are probably correct, I suppose, but I take a different view of the psychological aspects of "nebwies".

For me the question wasn't "ZEEWEII or Siglent", but "ZEEWEII or nothing".
Because I'm not investing $500 in something I know absolutely nothing about.
The same goes for second-hand. It's the same as with cars:
You need a lot of knowledge in order not to be ripped off.

You can rant as much as you want, I don't regret buying the ZEEWEII because I was able to learn a lot from it and am still learning and had a lot of fun with it.
Learning doesn't mean that the tools are perfect, you can learn the most from mistakes.

After all, we are talking about it here because I bought a ZEEWEII.
This alone is learning.
 
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Offline wasedadoc

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2023, 02:54:48 pm »
Any signal?  Nonsense!


Yes, any signal has infinite continuous spectrum. This is analog world...

The oscilloscope is a device which is intended to check what is going on with signal.
If you see on the display and cannot say if that waveform is real or fake then such device is not oscilloscope, but a toy.
1.  I assume you never use Newtonian mechanics.  Einstein's theories that it can give wrong answers have been experimentally proven.

2.  I generate a signal.  You claim it has infinite continuous spectrum.  Maybe, but what is the amplitude of those high frequency components?  High enough to be digitised by an 8 bit ADC?  I then put the signal through a really good low pass filter.  That is still "any signal".  Are you still claiming that the spectrum will confuse the toy scope?  Even if the filter is better than the one in the "non-toy" scope?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 03:04:10 pm by wasedadoc »
 

Offline tatel

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2023, 04:54:17 pm »
Only enterprises that don't want problems and educational institutions don't hack their oscilloscopes.
I'm going to call bullshit on that statement unless you can back it up with data (and not anecdotes). Very few businesses, not just enterprises, will bother hacking a scope to save a few hundred dollars and potentially miss out on warranty and support. And many hobbyists will either not know about it or not bother. The people you see on this forum is only a very tiny fraction of the total customer base.

Sorry, man. What's the difference between "business" and "enterprise"? In my mind, any legally stablished, registered "company" is an "enterprise" whose aim is to earn money by making "business". It doesn't matter if the company has tousands of employees or is just an "autonomous" guy. If it's just a guy selling ice cream on the street or thousands of people manufacturing missiles in a big factory, it doesn't matter either. Both cases are legal "Companies" or "enterprises" doing a "business". I would say most layman people in my country would think more or less the same. Perhaps some banksters would know better. I'm afraid my knowledge of english language isn't as good as I would like.

About people in this forum being only a fraction of the total customer base, I stand corrected. OP is here, though, and it looks like he will rather prefer not having to  expend 3000 bucks.

Quote
While that can happen, it's much more likely to trip a fuse / breaker or destroy your circuit. Unless you are using the scopes for high energy circuits where your average mains powered scope has no business being without some special (high voltage differential) probes that would avoid this problem by virtue of not having a ground clip  ;D.

Again, you are right. I myself just purchased a MicSig DP750-100 last week. But OP is clearly as lost as an octopus in a parking lot right now. He probably doesn't even imagine that thing does exist and that he will want, sooner rather than later, to do something that probe would come handy for. That's probably the first time he heards about it. We all have read a number of clearly wrong assumptions from him. In these circumstances, very big bad mistakes can be expected, I think.

I will not say the name, but there is a forum member, from the US, far from being a newbie, who got his non-entry-level, quite expensive GW Instek scope destroyed. I have seen that used against him in a derogatory way in some post. I don't think that's fair, everybody can have a very bad day sometimes. Particularly a newbie that doesn't know even the most basic things (yet)

Juan, this is for you:

Guys, please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but it looks OP expects to be able to, say, read SDS2350X+ manual while saving the money, then buying it (and probably other equipement), then magically all will work fine.

I myself found quite difficult to make progress just by reading my oscilloscope's manual, even having the oscilloscope on my bench. Just an example: triggering. GDS1054B has quite a few trigger modes. I lost quite a bunch of hours reading the manual, then trying things, then getting confused and frustrated when the expected thing didn't happened. Then turning off the oscilloscope and perhaps letting some weeks or even months pass until next try.

But, after getting the DSO154 toy, things were different. No more manual as thick as a finger. Just two triggers, rise and fall.  That makes easier to understand how triggering works. Then you easyly understand trigger level has to be between signal peaks or, well, it won't trigger, "of course". Then you can understand frequency can't be measured unless you have complete cycle(s) into the screen -horizontal timebase adjusts this. That's easier to realize if you have, say, half a dozen buttons than if you have two dozen buttons. Then you understand peak-to-peak voltage can't be measured unless signal peaks are into the screen -of course-. Vertical scale adjust this. Then you understand oscilloscope has 8 bit ADC, so all you have are 256 levels for all the screen height. If your vertical adjustement makes  the signal be just in 1/4 of screen height, you are wasting 3/4 of your ADC's capabilities and measurement error will be bigger. No matter if you have a $40 or a $3000 oscilloscope. And so on and so on and on and on. To understand the basics, I think a very simple oscilloscope is way better. Then you suddenly realize you are able to use your "good" oscilloscope that was frustrating you before. And you are able to see why some oscilloscope is better than another for some task.

Now we are asking OP what to do for he wants an oscilloscope and he doesn't answer that question because he just doesn't know. He doesn't know the difference between analog and digital, I would say. Nor about the hidden dangers in testing a device that is connected to mains, or more specifically, to protective earth, nor that USB could make his device/oscilloscope also connected to protective earth, nor about isolation transformers providing safety in some way but also making GFCIs unable to protect him, etc, etc, etc. Just to mention a few things.

Following OP's current thinking, he will get a $3000 oscilloscope, $3000 signal/function/arbitrary waveform generator, $1000 soldering station, perhaps $10000 spectrum analyzer... and so on and on and on... just to be sure that equipement will be able to cope with "any" task and so, having to cry just once. Even if he doesn't know right now which one that task could be. While saving that money, he will not be able to do any work, yet he expects all the necessary things he's going to read about it in the meanwhile will remain clear in his memory. Then, when the time to begin to use that equipement finally comes, he will be like a caveman that is suddenly put at the driving wheel of a 800HP Ferrari... My bet: he will probably have a crash at some corner. Don't you guys think so?

So, I see OP is in for a dissapointment unless he changes his thinking. There are so many things that need to be understood before working efficiently, that OP approach can't possibly work, I think. Big problems have to be solved by dividing them in small steps. So he has a project that looks as purely analogic and low-frequency. Instead of waiting to save 3000 bucks while studying manuals, he would be better getting a cheap oscilloscope and putting hands at work right now. It's just that DSO154 isn't good enough to do useful work after he understand the basics. But DSO2512 will allow him to begin the work and to make his learning easier right now, and to look at things like PSUs at the future (by getting a probe adequate to the task, but this can be put aside until need arise). That while maintaining is "good" oscilloscope apart from mains connected devices, so safe. Being portable as an added bonus. So it will be useful now and in the future, and he will not waste his money by getting it now to begin his journey.

After getting this project done, perhaps he will take on another project, this one having a LCD screen to show, say, temperature. Then he will need to handle digital communication between thermocouple/ADC, microcontroller and screen. He will have to learn how digital signals work. He will know about UART, I2C, SPI. He will know logic analyzer will decode the messages and oscilloscope will show if signals are OK. He will understand why having a 4-channel oscilloscope is a plus. Initial approach could be donee done with a $10, an $100 or an $1000 logic analyzer. Hopefully he will get a $10 one, learn how to use it, then decide if he needs a $100 or a $1000 one in the future. Or a 4-channel mixed signal oscilloscope with a very very big screen.

Same for any other project/equipement. Step by step along his way. Not waiting to have all the real good equipement to do it all at once. Do you think guys this is bad advice?

Juan, you must understand you seem to be in for a long trip on this train. You expect this train to have a diesel locomotive: just turn the key and the train will be going. But you are wrong, this train has a steam locomotive and to raise steam pressure (knowledge) will take some time. You can make the wait shorter and the trip easier by taking small steps and going progresively.

To put your lab up, look for Dave's videos, it has a couple of them about it, one with a normal-low budget and one with a very low budget. To learn to use an oscilloscope, you can get a $500 one to start with, but you'll probably find it too complicated at first, then realize there are tasks where a mistake could make that $500 oscilloscope become  scrap. Why do you think I'm looking for an old, used, analogic oscilloscope when I already got a modern, better oscilloscope, and even a $200 differential probe? To learn to use your oscilloscope, the thread were Charlotte learned rstofer mentioned is probably the best way to follow. I didn't, so my bad . And you'll have to do your homework.

Well, I have to mind my own business now.  Writing these posts, trying to make them logically yarn, while trying to make my english grammatically and ortographically as correct as I can, is taking too much time from me. I intend to come back to this thread now and then, but I will make my post as short as possible


 
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Offline tatel

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2023, 04:59:29 pm »
@aldo22

AFAIK, limitations of DSO2512 have ben already discussed in that thread. IIRC, it was said it's good up to 25 MHz with both channels enabled.

But there is some common sense: how possibly could a $100 bucks device be better than a $500-range scope? No way, should that be true, other brands would have to at least do equally well o no se comerian un colĂ­n (they wouldn't eat even a turd)
 
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Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2023, 05:49:19 pm »
I hope the OP has learned something.I have had all sorts of scopes including one that did not even have a time base.With the advent of digital scopes the entire scene changed. You could get a lot more for your money. This is however not without consequences. Every digital scope has different operating characteristics and I am not sure that I can wrap my head around them. Signal acquisition is not straight forward  as volts vs time anymore, but a computer generated trace that is supposed to emulate that.I used to think that an analog scope is the way to start but now with the old scopes being more and more prone to failure, and with the affordability of digital scopes. I have changed my opinion.If you buy an old analog scope, you have to deal with it's maintenance, mostly by yourself. This is not a big deal for experienced tecks but is daunting for a newcomer,
Besides that, digital scopes are really the standard instruments used today and you might as well get used to them.  But it does take a lot of investigation into how the digital scopes work to understand their individual quirks,Even the toy scopes have much different capabilities compared to old scopes.
It would be nice for the OP to be able to see the scopes he is considering "in action" . Perhaps there is someone local he could seek out who has some experience and would let him actually put his hands on a scope to see how it functioned.From what I have read the Sigilent scopes appear to be the way to go. But I do not have one.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2023, 09:24:08 pm »
I myself found quite difficult to make progress just by reading my oscilloscope's manual, even having the oscilloscope on my bench. Just an example: triggering. GDS1054B has quite a few trigger modes. I lost quite a bunch of hours reading the manual, then trying things, then getting confused and frustrated when the expected thing didn't happened. Then turning off the oscilloscope and perhaps letting some weeks or even months pass until next try.

Earlier I posted a link to CharlotteSwiss's epic thread where she buys a 2 channel Siglent around Reply 150 and decides to work through the User Manual feature-by-feature.  There's a lot of education in that thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/msg3100087

I never thought about using a scope to come up with the numeric value of the integral of some signal.  We had a lot of fun with her new  scope.
 

Offline MrAl

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2023, 12:20:35 am »
Hi,

I was going to mention Owen because i got a scope from them not too long ago.
There are some quirks but i guess once you get used to it it's not too bad, if you dont need 100MHz bandwidth that is.
One unusual quirk is that if you go to measure a resistor of a certain value (dont remember the exact value now but there's probably a range where this happens) the meter function flips back and forth continuously from one range to another range and never settles on just one range and so you cant get a reading unless you switch to manual range and set the right range.  That's on autorange, which is how the device boots up.  I thought that was very strange, but you can get around it.
The other quirk i noticed just recently is the scope probe insert jacks.  They are unusual because they have a plastic outer shell, unlike most other scopes.  They claim it is for the user protection so they dont get some kind of shock when measuring higher voltages.  It's kind of nuts really though, and not needed.  The problem though is that it is harder for the probe to make contact with ground as it has to rely in the inner metal ring ONLY to make contact with the inner part of the jack, which does not always work.  I found this out when i went to test something and it looked like the op amp was not working but really it was the probe that was not working.  I checked it with the 1kHz test square wave on the Owen and it worked fine.  It worked fine because with the 1kHz test wave the scope probe does not need a ground to work as the test wave must be connected internally to the common ground.  The square wave looks normal like that, but when i go to look at the output of the op amp, it's just noise.  Once i found out what was causing this, i had to carefully expand the metal ring inside the probe end to get it to make good contact with the unorthodox probe jacks.  So far it's still working but it will probably happen again so i'll have to do it again at some point.  I supposed i could change the jacks to the more common type.

Aside from the problems, i found it useful when i was looking at I2C signals even though this scope does not handle I2C signal decoding.  I could clearly see the pulses and figure out what each one was doing so i was able to troubleshoot the communications.
Also for some op amp testing with signals around 1MHz or less.  It can go higher, but no way will it reach 100MHz and not even 50MHz.  Lucky i dont need it for that  :)

The price was what got me.  I only had to pay around $100 USD for it so for what i need it for it works ok overall.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2023, 12:23:17 am by MrAl »
 

Offline donlisms

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2023, 07:26:56 pm »
Wow.  You guys.  I guess what happens is y'all start arguing with each other about your "superior" perspective in the matter, and totally forget what it's like to be beginner who needs advice.  Lighten up!  Focus on the issue at hand.  Try to be helpful. 

As to a first oscilloscope, I think there are distinct advantages to finding a cheap analog scope, if possible.  I know it's harder in some countries, so... maybe not an option.  But all the basics are there; they've been used in some very important projects world-wide, and we got the thing done!  No, don't get a broken one, but even if a little issue shows up, it could be a fun and valuable learning experience.

Then... you live with it, you get a basic understanding of manipulating the two axes, the timing things, simple triggering.  Then you decide you're ready for a digital scope with buttons and knobs and menus to keep you fascinated with exploring the unknown for days and days.  And you have insight into the advantages of analog (and there are some) as you use the digital, as opposed to all those folks who bad-mouth them without ever having used one. 
 

Online tautech

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2023, 08:22:31 pm »
Wow.  You guys.  I guess what happens is y'all start arguing with each other about your "superior" perspective in the matter, and totally forget what it's like to be beginner who needs advice.  Lighten up!  Focus on the issue at hand.  Try to be helpful. 

As to a first oscilloscope, I think there are distinct advantages to finding a cheap analog scope, if possible. 
Please tell exactly what those advantages might be ?  :-//
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2023, 09:22:42 pm »
Wow.  You guys.  I guess what happens is y'all start arguing with each other about your "superior" perspective in the matter, and totally forget what it's like to be beginner who needs advice.  Lighten up!  Focus on the issue at hand.  Try to be helpful. 

As to a first oscilloscope, I think there are distinct advantages to finding a cheap analog scope, if possible. 
Please tell exactly what those advantages might be ?  :-//

Many people have told you many times. Once more won't change your mind.

There are permutations of old phrases that are relevant: "you can lead a DSO salesman to water, but you can't make him drink", and "show me their reward structure and I'll tell you how they will behave".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2023, 09:24:22 pm »
Wow.  You guys.  I guess what happens is y'all start arguing with each other about your "superior" perspective in the matter, and totally forget what it's like to be beginner who needs advice.  Lighten up!  Focus on the issue at hand.  Try to be helpful. 

As to a first oscilloscope, I think there are distinct advantages to finding a cheap analog scope, if possible. 
Please tell exactly what those advantages might be ?  :-//

Many people have told you many times. Once more won't change your mind.

There are permutations of old phrases that are relevant: "you can lead a DSO salesman to water, but you can't make him drink", and "show me their reward structure and I'll tell you how they will behave".
::)  :-//
Do you have a crystal ball to what donlisms reply might be ?
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Offline donlisms

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2023, 09:51:15 pm »
I do!  Crystal ball.  And an affirmation that I'm presenting a point of view to try to be helpful.

Analog scopes are better at real time display, without lags and latency - the beam is NOW, not from a buffer of data collected a little while ago. Thay means they can do X-Y mode nicely, which is a fun and useful thing and can lead to insights.  The traces are always (always) prettier; they're smooth and beautiful; a beam of electrons smacking photons around is a much more elegant solution than yet another splattering of pixels (opinion).  They have a simpler user interface model.  I would speculate that they are more loved by their owners.  They don't have software bugs.  They usually don't have quite so many bad user interface decisions, although... there are some here and there if you venture fat from Tektronix.

They're just nice.  You learn to use them.  You don't have to post so many "How do I ..." questions.  And if you're in a lucky place in the world, they're usually way cheaper.
 

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2023, 10:11:03 pm »
donlisms, I've come from that place and never going back !

So do you suggest we go back to the analogue world of communications or stay with modern digital and for scopes all the benefits and reliability they offer over a CRO ?
I've fixed many CRO's, more than enough to know the always challenged parts of their design and common failure points few if any are present in the modern DSO no none are CCFL backlit.

Display latency is not an issue with the modern devices from the main manufacturers although older DSO's lacking processing power may have influenced your opinions on this matter.  :-//

We need consider when offering advice to the scope newbie now far they might go into the EE rabbit hole and at least suggest a device that can go with them a some ways and at least be near 100% reliable.
In 10 years selling DSO's all AFAIK are still working however I doubt if the few CRO's passed over this bench still are which included several respected models.

As far as chucking down a few 100 $ for an old CRO as opposed to a warranteed DSO it's poor advice to offer a scope newbie in this day and age with the wonderful models available under $500.
Even a $300 DSO feature set leaves a CRO in the dust.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Recommend budget oscilloscope Please
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2023, 10:12:04 pm »
Analog scopes work!  We went to the Moon back in '69 with analog scopes but I doubt that we would do it again.

As I said earlier, I built my first scope from the ARRL Handbook back around '58 so let's just assume I have been using analog scopes for about 60 years.  I currently have a Tek 485.  I use it as a basic 2 channel scope and if that is all I want or need, it's good enough.  But these days, that simply isn't enough.

There is no way in the world I would pick the 485 over the Rigol DS1054Z which I also have.  The ONLY advantage of the 485 is bandwidth (350 MHz vs 100 MHz) but every other feature favors the Rigol.  Channels, decoding, measurements, calculations (integral of a function) all favor the Rigol.

Yes, knobs are easier to use than menus but there would need to be a metric buttload of knobs to provide the same features.  And who cares about the menu UI when it is used a VERY SMALL percentage of the total on-scope time?  What?  1 minute on the menus and 59 minutes on the screen?  The menu UI just doesn't matter.  Nor does the idea of channel selection versus discrete channel knobs.  Once set, the scope runs for a long time and the settings can be saved to a named file.  Try that with plastic knobs!

In the end, all we can do is present options.  It isn't our decision to make and there is no reason to get invested in the outcome of the discussion.  We have all made our decisions and it's time for the OP to make his.  It always comes down to performance versus price and performance versus need.  The gotcha is that 'need' is a moving target.


 


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