Author Topic: New lab - no grounded outlets  (Read 30068 times)

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Offline EmilTopic starter

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New lab - no grounded outlets
« on: June 23, 2013, 11:44:31 am »
I'll move into a larger house soon and I will finally have a lab instead of just a table in the living room to use for electronics.

The house was built in the late 80's when electrical code in Norway only required grounded outlets in the kitchen and bathrooms. It's an IT-system with single GFI for the entire house.

The room that will become my lab only has ungrounded outlets.

Will the lack of grounding be a real problem? Would it be worthwhile to have a ground wire and new outlets installed?
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 11:58:35 am »
Yes - you will need grounding for a lot of testgear, PCs etc. as their input filters will have caps to ground - without a ground connection the cases will float at half mains - not dangerous but you will feel it, and it will be enough to damage chips.
 
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Offline Paul Price

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 12:11:08 pm »
When people are talking about voltage potentials between well-functioning electronic equipment, such as oscilloscopes and PC computers, for instance, they are frightened because  they can measure a high voltage with a sensitive multimeter. There can be a considerable voltage between their respective chassis. However, it is only a very small AC current, too small to cause any injury, it can be somewhere in the high micro-amps, but yes, it sometimes it can cause a mild electrical shock that should be considered more unpleasant rather than dangerous. If there were any dangerous AC current, the GFI in my house would instantly kick open the AC circuit in the room.

When using my digital  and analog oscilloscopes, voltmeters and the likes under these situations, (which I have been doing for over 25 years doing electronic design and repair work.), I always connect the ground connection of the oscilloscope or other test instrument first to the D.U.T.  This means that the probe tip of the oscilloscope or signal generator, etc. is at the same ground potential before I connect a signal or a meter or an oscilloscope probe and can do no harm to the D.U.T.

I am not a lone maniac who chooses to work in this way, hundreds of other technicians in service shops in this tiny country operate in this very same way.

In fact, almost every house in this country has 2-wire AC plugs and people connect things together all the time without any injuries to themselves or their equipment, thanks to GFI. Once in a while people bring in equipment that they have burned out an USB port  because of connecting equipment where there are power ground loops. I always remind people to unplug at least one of the devices when connecting USB. But even different AC grounded circuits in the same room can have a nasty low-voltage AC but with a high-current that can also damage equipment and cause a tickle.

I haven't had any damage to any equipment that I've serviced, nor to myself, nor to the oscilloscopes and other test equipment in my work area.  I have been occasionally been tickled a bit by the bite of this inter-chassis AC  potential.

Before I plug anything in that I might be asked to repair or modify, I always make visual check of the equipment for rust or corrosion or other water damage or just check if the equipment shows any dampness, water drops, etc.  If I am unsure of the equipment, I use a DVM to check the AC power cord for resistance to the chassis ground before plugging it in. That is just common sense.  Electronics is about working with electricity and can be dangerous, so caution must be a thing to  learn and practice. I am not against grounding equipment if it is something like an electric washing machine, a refrigerator or a high-powered circular saw that is not double-insulated.

On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger. It could allow me to get a serious shock from some other piece of equipment that has a AC mains short to the chassis if I am touching the metal ground of the scope and the chassis or some live AC mains wire in the circuit of some piece of correctly working or even defective or unsafe equipment. I wouldn't be in mortal danger if the oscilloscope was ungrounded.[/b]

For safety's sake I would not allow any three wired grounded outlets around my work bench test area.

In servicing thousands of devices, I can recall only two or three that ever had a AC mains short to ground. These few items could have been really dangerous, but a visual inspection and a DVM resistance check revealed the danger of the problem before I even turned them on. One was a miswired 3-wire AC EU-style line cord the other was due to someone trying to repair the item and connecting one side of the AC line to the chassis.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 12:23:42 pm by Paul Price »
 

Offline M. András

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2013, 12:27:08 pm »
those floating chassis cases can hurt like this: m**********r. but if everything is grounded it has no problem. just dont connect things to a live conductor
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 12:27:47 pm »
On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger. It could allow me to get a serious shock from some other piece of equipment that has a AC mains short to the chassis if I am touching the metal ground of the scope and the chassis of some piece of defective or unsafe equipment. I wouldn't be in mortal danger if the oscilloscope was ungrounded.

For safety's sake I would not allow any three wired grounded outlets around my work bench test area.


If you are in the UK that statement could get you prosecuted under health and safety legislation. If I have to use a scope to measure something on mains I either use a scope that has isolation built in or a small isolation circuit. The bandwidth of the latter is pretty rubbish but it works.

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Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 01:28:10 pm »
On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger. It could allow me to get a serious shock from some other piece of equipment that has a AC mains short to the chassis if I am touching the metal ground of the scope and the chassis or some live AC mains wire in the circuit of some piece of correctly working or even defective or unsafe equipment. I wouldn't be in mortal danger if the oscilloscope was ungrounded.

For safety's sake I would not allow any three wired grounded outlets around my work bench test area.

Why aren't you using an isolation transformer for the DUT and a differential HV probe for the scope? What about the ground of the mains HV transformer at the pole or substation?
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 01:41:09 pm »
Differential voltage probes are delicate, expensive and clumsy to use in most situations.

High power isolation transformers are expensive and take up a lot of bench space but are an excellent idea if you can afford them.

 

Offline ddavidebor

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New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 01:59:24 pm »
I'll move into a larger house soon and I will finally have a lab instead of just a table in the living room to use for electronics.

The house was built in the late 80's when electrical code in Norway only required grounded outlets in the kitchen and bathrooms. It's an IT-system with single GFI for the entire house.

The room that will become my lab only has ungrounded outlets.

Will the lack of grounding be a real problem? Would it be worthwhile to have a ground wire and new outlets installed?

Absolutely yes.

As a people that has moved several times, i suggest you to fix the electrical system before yu get in the house.
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Offline MasterOfNone

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 02:32:57 pm »
Emil,
Also think about how you would like to dress in your new lab. Yeah that’s right, not because the women are going to come flocking now that you have your own lab (They may or may not I don‘t know). But because if you wear Polyester/Nylon plus rubber soul shoes you could find build up quite a bit of static electricity.
Having an ESD mat on your workbench that’s connected to ground could help discharge you safely before you damage any equipment/components.
Anyway this may not be a problem because you may wear decent clothes :)
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 02:42:52 pm »
On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger.

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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 02:54:03 pm »
"On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger. It could allow me to get a serious shock from some other piece of equipment that has a AC mains short to the chassis if I am touching the metal ground of the scope and the chassis or some live AC mains wire in the circuit of some piece of correctly working or even defective or unsafe equipment. I wouldn't be in mortal danger if the oscilloscope was ungrounded."

GFI/RCDs and grounded equipment are not mutually exclusive.
An RCD would still protect you in the situation you described.

Even if you don't have the instrument earthed,there may be objects in the room which are incidentally grounded,which you may touch.
 

Offline Alana

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 04:21:43 pm »
I had such setup as OP but after one electric shock too many i rewired it to include earth connectors. Thing is that my workbench is near central heating pipes and it was easy to touch both central heating and ungrounded PC case - and that resulted in painful electric shock - skin on other body parts that inner side of palm and fingers is damn conductive...

But we have TN-C with central heating pipes connected to power line neutral somewhere in basement and Norway is IT so there may be a big difference there. Personally I'd leave it as it is - IT is like powering your entire workbench from big insulation transformer - or asked a local sparky for advice - IT power network has its differences.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 04:23:43 pm »
Differential voltage probes are delicate, expensive and clumsy to use in most situations.
Are you talking about high frequency differential probes? They are delicate and expensive yes ... but it's not like you are generally going to get good high frequency measurements after you put the stray capacitance of your oscilloscope case into your circuit ... unless it's a high power RF circuit which doesn't mind the extra antenna.

HV differential probes generally are able to take >1000 volt differential voltages, hardly delicate ... you certainly wouldn't want to float your oscilloscope much more than that. They use two separate probe clips as well, which to me seems less clumsy than an ordinary probe with ground clip. Still expensive, unfortunately yes.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2013, 04:43:24 pm »
Differential voltage probes are delicate, expensive and clumsy to use in most situations.

High power isolation transformers are expensive and take up a lot of bench space but are an excellent idea if you can afford them.

I'm not talking about differential voltage probes - I'm talking about a small battery powered circuit that is capable of probing a circuit then outputting a signal to a grounded oscilloscope with mains isolation between the two. I don't know if I still have the circuit for the one I built at work - will look tomorrow. To be honest, I haven't really used it since we bought an Tek TPS2000 with isolated inputs.

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2013, 05:05:45 pm »
On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger.

"Hello, my name is Paul Price and I am an idiot."

This is a topic that I am very hesitant to bring up, but I have noticed that this particular person seems to spread deliberate misinformation on occasion.  Is my BS meter faulty?
 

Offline EmilTopic starter

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 05:17:41 pm »
Emil,
Also think about how you would like to dress in your new lab. Yeah that’s right, not because the women are going to come flocking now that you have your own lab (They may or may not I don‘t know). But because if you wear Polyester/Nylon plus rubber soul shoes you could find build up quite a bit of static electricity.
Having an ESD mat on your workbench that’s connected to ground could help discharge you safely before you damage any equipment/components.
Anyway this may not be a problem because you may wear decent clothes :)

My clothes are ESD safe, but may or may not be considered decent by other standards :)

I probably should have mentioned it in my first post but I have some static dissipative mats for the work surfaces and a few liters of ElectraThane anti-static paint for the floor. Both of these should be grounded too.
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 05:35:40 pm »
Equipment that is designed for use in a grounded circuit can have up to a milliamp or two of ground leakage (not microamps).  I don't know what the regulations are, this is measured by me on multiple pieces of commercial T&M and vacuum equipment.  If you lift the ground connection and you have an available path to ground, that current will go through you.  It is not enough to trip an RCD, and usually not enough to be dangerous (unless you have and existing heart condition) but it will hurt. It also is definitely enough to destroy semiconductor devices -- especially if you are working on a prototype in the lab that doesn't have ESD protection on all the inputs.

This is a bigger problem in 230 volt countries as the mid-rail voltage is 115 volts instead of 60 VAC.  I have never felt a shock from ungrounded equipment in the US, but I have in Europe.  Also, obviously equipment with universal supplies will have twice the ground leakage current when operated at the higher voltage.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2013, 05:51:01 pm »

But we have TN-C with central heating pipes connected to power line neutral somewhere in basement and Norway is IT so there may be a big difference there. Personally I'd leave it as it is - IT is like powering your entire workbench from big insulation transformer - or asked a local sparky for advice - IT power network has its differences.

It may be isolated but if your neighbours have a fault to earth then it suddenly becomes a grounded system with no visible indication of the fault. Then you have a 50/50 chance to connect the wrong way and fry yourself. It is only isolated if there is a single load connected to the transformer, and that means a single item, no lamps, no PC power supplies with Class Y caps, no Tv sets and alarm systems, no sat receivers, no other electrical items other than a really short low capacitance lead to a secondary with low capacitance to the core and ground.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 05:56:40 pm »
On the other hand, having a grounded oscilloscope on my workbench could put me in great danger.

"Hello, my name is Paul Price and I am an idiot."

This is a topic that I am very hesitant to bring up, but I have noticed that this particular person seems to spread deliberate misinformation on occasion.  Is my BS meter faulty?

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet regardless of who says it :)
 

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2013, 05:59:12 pm »
Agreed, but some sources are more trustworthy than others.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2013, 06:17:06 pm »
Grounded three pin and ungrounded two pin electrical outlet systems are each individually safe as long as they are used consistently and not mixed in the same room or workplace. The two pin system is (was) considered safe as long as the outlets are in a dry room with no exposed metal pipes or other earthing points within reach of the sockets. As soon as you introduce one earthed or grounded item into the environment the whole setup becomes unsafe.

Since every piece of test equipment I have seen has been fitted with a grounded three pin plug, it follows that these devices must be used in a grounded, three pin socket environment. Any two pin device plugged into these sockets must satisfy the "double insulated" safety standards so that there is almost no chance of any live parts becoming exposed.

So the short answer to the opening question is yes: an electronic work bench or lab environment must be fitted with properly grounded three pin sockets for the test equipment to plug into. It is grossly unsafe to disconnect the earth pin of a device fitted with a three pin plug.

This will also provide a convenient place to connect the earth lead of static dissipating mats and wrist straps.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2013, 06:29:20 pm »
You might be able to derive a ground from something like a metal water pipe or cable TV connector. Use a 100W or so bulb to check the ground impedance and if that's good, add a GFCI/RCD. (If you don't like the idea of doing DIY mains wiring, an off the shelf solution is a plug in GFCI and a surge protector with coaxial connectors.)
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Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2013, 06:35:41 pm »
Differential voltage probes are delicate, expensive and clumsy to use in most situations.

High power isolation transformers are expensive and take up a lot of bench space but are an excellent idea if you can afford them.

Just checked ebay. 400W for US$10, 3KW for US$115 and 5KW for US$200. Is that high power enough? Doesn't seem to be really expensive, especially if you take care about your safety. I got a small one (350W) with a built-in variac which serves me well. What kind of equipment do you repair that requires high power?
 

Offline Thor-Arne

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2013, 06:48:56 pm »
Emil, absolutely get your lab grounded.

You might check if there is a unused ground wire inside the cable tubing, it was quite common to wire a house with ground and just install the ungrounded sockets.

Also, your fusebox is properly grounded....
 

Offline Alana

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2013, 06:56:57 pm »

But we have TN-C with central heating pipes connected to power line neutral somewhere in basement and Norway is IT so there may be a big difference there. Personally I'd leave it as it is - IT is like powering your entire workbench from big insulation transformer - or asked a local sparky for advice - IT power network has its differences.

It may be isolated but if your neighbours have a fault to earth then it suddenly becomes a grounded system with no visible indication of the fault. Then you have a 50/50 chance to connect the wrong way and fry yourself. It is only isolated if there is a single load connected to the transformer, and that means a single item, no lamps, no PC power supplies with Class Y caps, no Tv sets and alarm systems, no sat receivers, no other electrical items other than a really short low capacitance lead to a secondary with low capacitance to the core and ground.

Good to know, thx.
 


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