good choice for first oscilloscope

[EEVblog]

the Agilent U1242B meter looks awesome, I will be getting one in a week or two :-P

It's an older model, but the price point is really nice.
If you get anything from TrioSmartCal or Emona, tell'em I sent you, they know me and the blog and might do you an ever better deal. Worth asking anyway 

Now I need to chooses a scope, I came up with theses three what are your thoughts?
I think its better if i invest some money in something a bit better quality

GW INSTEK - GDS-1102 - OSCILLOSCOPE, DSO, 100MHZ, COLOUR
http://au.element14.com/gw-instek/gds-1102/oscilloscope-dso-100mhz-colour/dp/1563800

LECROY - WAVEACE 112 - OSCILLOSCOPE, 100MHZ, 2-CH, 4KPTS/CH
http://au.element14.com/lecroy/waveace-112/oscilloscope-100mhz-2-ch-4kpts/dp/163330801

TEKTRONIX - TDS1002C-EDU - OSCILLOSCOPE, 60MHZ, 2 CH, 1GS/S
http://au.element14.com/tektronix/tds1002c-edu/oscilloscope-60mhz-2-ch-1gs-s/dp/187749801

Forget them all, ancient technology by modern scope standards, pathetic sample memory depth.
If you are spending serious money then you want a big deep sample memory. After all, you can 1M on the Rigol for $400.

The Instek is the older model, newer one is the 1102A that has 2M memory and 1GS/s
http://www.emona.com.au/catalogue.asp?cat=1
(select the price list)
Same price as the older model at Farnell
(Farnell are almost always more expensive than the local reps)

Dave.

[EEVblog]

I think there's a GW-Instek model (SFG-1003?) that's got some positive reviews on this forum.

Yes, looks like a good value DDS based unit.
Oz list price is $245 from Emona.

Dave.

[aparlett]

I'd recommend to a beginner. I think there's a GW-Instek model (SFG-1003?) that's got some positive reviews on this forum.

Ok thanks that looks like a good choice for my function-gen.
that and the multimeter thats two down.
 

Forget them all, ancient technology by modern scope standards, pathetic sample memory depth.
If you are spending serious money then you want a big deep sample memory. After all, you can 1M on the Rigol for $400.

The Instek is the older model, newer one is the 1102A that has 2M memory and 1GS/s
http://www.emona.com.au/catalogue.asp?cat=1
(select the price list)
Same price as the older model at Farnell
(Farnell are almost always more expensive than the local reps)

Dave.

I think I might go with that one.

I was also looking at the Agilent DSOX2002A 2 Channel 70MHz Oscilloscope
http://triosmartcal.com.au/2231-agilent-dsox2004a-4-channel-70mhz-oscilloscope.html

but that only has a 100k memory depth, but on the other hand its has lot of other features.

never thought setting up a home lab was going to be so much work.

Antony

[rf-loop]

As for the difference between the Rigol and others like OWON, Tekway, or whoever, there isn't much in it these days.

Well the Owon SDS line has a much larger display with higher resolution and a ten times larger record length even under best conditions for the Rigol. If the price is the limit, the Rigol is still the best choice in the 350€ range if you can live with 50MHz or are willing to risk the hack, but for about 100€ more, you get a true 100MHz SDS7102. The only thing that really sucks about the Owon is the customer support. I.e. they don't offer free firmware downloads but you have to contact them directly to get a bugfixed firmware (and it's not like they react instantly). And yeah, the menu buttons and the multi-purpose rotary knob feel a little cheap. Apart from that it's a great little scope.

Owon FW patch for 2..1.1 version SDS7102. Local authorized Owon dealer is good place to ask update. Everyone have buy it from some place. Very simple, ask seller. And more simple, before buy, look littlebit wherefrom buy.  It is not so bad if buyer also use his brains when select wherefrom buy.

Owon customer support and customer care is one of most good what I know. Always nearly immediate answer and you can fax, email, phone call etc.

There is no any reason for public open dowload place for FW updates or repair patches.
Example aghp (Owon seller in Finland) have share immediately this FW patch to his customers after patch was available. There are sellers and sellers. Buy from grey ebay seller who sell teddybears and oscilloscopes and parfumes... you really think it is clever to buy. Then waiting customer care.

Owon (Lilliput group)  mainstream is of course so that Owon give all support and care to resellers and resellers need give to it end users. Of course also Owon try kindly help single end users but everyone understand that it is impossible to care every single end user just as he is only people in world.

[0xdeadbeef]

Be aware regarding the Agilent that a lot of the features will cost you extra money. This is exactly what I hate about Agilent.
Besides, IMHO the Hameg HMO series with 2M sample points is in nearly every way (except for waveforms per second) superior to the DSOX2000 series. Especially the 100k record length are underwhelming to say the least.

Then again, I'd still advise you to watch the great video review of the Owon SDS linked to above. It mentions about everything worth mentioning. If you don't want to use the scope on a professional base and/or each and every day, I'm not sure if it's worth to spend >=1000k if half of it would satisfy most  if not all of your hobbyist needs. And did I mention that the Owon has full speed 10M record length for each channel ? This is the magnitude that you usually would only expect from LeCroys etc. in the >10k€ league.

[0xdeadbeef]

Local authorized Owon dealer is good place to ask update.

Sorry, pretty offtopic, this belongs to the Owon thread, so I'll answer there.

[aparlett]

I spoke to some local dealers and they said some companies offer students rebates if they buy there scopes :-P

[DonRon]

Hello to all,
I am newbie (located in Germany) in this forum, but have some experience in various electronics stuff (shortwave ham radio stuff, microcomputers, audio stuff). Stopped playing with those things for about 20 years - discovered Dave's blog and due to some other reasons I decided to start again with electronics.
Just bought some equipment, but also need a Scope. Read all the coments i could found concerning scopes (this forum and several other forums) but cannot decide wich one to buy.
I am sure that the Rigol DS1052E/DS1102E will be good enough to help me while starting new with electronics. But is it good enough to serve me for the next 5 or maybe 10 years?? Working with ham radio circuits (frequencies up to 50 MHz) in the near future, maybe it would be better to get a scope with more bandwith - found that GW Instek scope GDS1152A-U wich costs about 2 times more than the Rigol DS1102E but bandwith is 150 MHz. There is not much information conc these GW Instek scopes on the net.
So I cannot decide Rigol wich one to buy DS1052E, DS1102E or GW Instek GDS1152A-U ... is that GW Instek worth the extra money?
Really would appreciate your comments.
Thank's a lot and hope my english ist not toooooo bad...
Cheers,
Ronald

[0xdeadbeef]

Dunno if it makes sense to plan 5 or even ten years ahead regarding a low cost DSO. The product category of simple FPGA based digital storage scopes is pretty new and there is a lot of development to be expected in the next few years. Probably whatever you buy now will look pretty lame and basic in 5 years, especially regarding memory size etc.
Probably it makes more sense to buy something you need now and save some money to buy something new in 5 years or so.

[aparlett]

call and ask the manufacturers, alot of them I have been told give student discounts, cues they want you to uses there products in the feature as a professional 

[DonRon]

...The product category of simple FPGA based digital storage scopes is pretty new and there is a lot of development to be expected in the next few years. Probably whatever you buy now will look pretty lame and basic in 5 years, especially regarding memory size etc....

Didn't have that in my mind. Still have to learn a lot concerning the "new stuff". Starting again with electronics after 20 years I am still thinking the "old fashioned analog" way.
Looking for that low frequency (<= 50 MHz) stuff I wanna work with, a decent scope will serve you a really long time. Thinking about boise/ripple measurement (psu's), audio stuff, shortwave ham stuff the requirements will not really change very much.

Reading all the comments from many users, I think the Rigol DS1052E/1102E is the right way to start ... a lot of bang for buck, a lot of information by many satisfied and eperienced users. And not to forget - Dave claimed that the quality of this scope is absolutely acceptable. Maybe it will really be the best choice for the "my first scope" buy.
I would buy immediately, but there is only one question left:
Is the bandwith of 100 MHz good enough to observe the waveform of signals up to 30 MHz - 50 MHz (mainly sinus)? Or should I spent more money in that GW Instek scope with 150 MHz bandwith.

Best regards from an crazy german guy

Ronald
(lucky to find this great blog & forum ... love it...)

[Lightages]

I would buy immediately, but there is only one question left:
Is the bandwith of 100 MHz good enough to observe the waveform of signals up to 30 MHz - 50 MHz (mainly sinus)? Or should I spent more money in that GW Instek scope with 150 MHz bandwith.

The Rigol DS1052E hacked to 100MHz is more than enough to do work up to and beyond 100Mhz frequency content. The DS1052E left at stock bandwidth more than adequate for 30-50MHz. There are better scopes but at higher prices. It is still hard to beat the bang for the buck the Rigol gives you.

If I were buying a low end scope again I might consider the Owon SDS7102 except the screen colours would drive me mad. I like the idea of battery power for it too. But the Owon costs quite a bit more percentage wise.

[DonRon]

Hi Lightages!

Thank's for your statement. Read several papers concerning scopes (Textronix scope primer, Agilent application notes) and those guys claim, that the scope's bandwith should be 5 times more than the highest frequency you want to measure (should be able to see the fifth harmonics ... escpecially if u wanna look for square wave signals).
Alsohad a look for the Owon scopes ... seems to be very interesting first. But there are some statements of guys who tested the Owon and they found some remarkable firmware bugs. Also no really positive comments concerning Owon's support.

More and more ... I think getting the Rigol DS1052E ... or even the Rigol DS1102E for a good price will be a superb option. (AND ... one should never forget the unpayable impact of an active community of users.)
 
Cheers

Ronald

[alm]

A 100MHz scope is good for signals with a bandwidth of <= 100MHz as long as you can tolerate 30% error in amplitude accuracy (-3dB). Note that I mention a signal with 100MHz bandwidth, not a fundamental frequency (repetition rate) of 100MHz. You need much more bandwidth for the latter, 3-5x is often used as rule-of-thumb for qualitative measurements. Harmonic distortion (eg. square wave instead of sine) will show up as harmonics of the fundamental frequency, so the important information that distinguishes a 100MHz square wave from a 100MHz sine would be at 300MHz and 500MHz (perfect square waves consist of just odd harmonics).

See the screenshots in this post for an example how a 100MHz square wave almost becomes a sine with a 100MHz scope. The 100MHz scope wouldn't tell you anything meaningful about the shape of the 100MHz signal, and even the 500MHz scope is not ideal either (measured rise time is very close to the rise time of the scope).

[Lightages]

Of course I did say "frequency content". A square wave of 100MHz contains beyond 1GHz content. As Donron asked for sine waves in the range of 30-50MHz then even the stock DS1052E will be sufficient given that the bandwidth roll off is considered. Without a doubt, the DS1052E modified for 100MHz would be perfect for his maximum frequency content requirement.

[amspire]

Without a doubt, the DS1052E modified for 100MHz would be perfect for his maximum frequency content requirement.

As long as the DS1052E can be modified for 100MHz. Has anyone managed to downgrade from the latest firmware yet so that you can do the conversion?

There is always the hardware mod instead, but you don't get the faster timebase.

Anyway, the DS1052E is still a very good 50Mhz scope.

Richard.

[DonRon]

Thank's a lot guys!

That's exactely what I wanna know. Helped me to make my decision - so at the end of the day I will buy the Rigol. I am sure now it will do the job and - as Oxdeadbeef stated - save some and buy something new and more powerful in the future when it is necessary.

Even if I want to measure sinusoidal signals most of the time it is really good to knew where the limitations are concerning different applications. Helps to prevent possible errors in the future.

Also you inspired me to read the interesting application notes (Tektronixs and Agilent) once again more accurate.

So - thank's again guys for your support,

Ronald

[aparlett]

After speaking two quite a few people and getting prices.
I am 80% sure I'm going to get the
HAMEG [HMO724]

http://www.hameg.com/613.0.html
around $2000

whats every one else s opinion on my choice?
Could I be getting something better for around the same price?
I was looking at the Agilent and they have a lot higher waveforms update per second.
would i be better off going with one of them

thanks Antony

[0xdeadbeef]

I fear that nobody here ever really used one of the new HMO scopes. Unfortunately, I haven't either.
So the following statements are based on other people's reviews, technical data etc. It is also based a little on the (not so good) experience I have with the 8k€ Agilent scopes in the job.

I'd say the only big advantage of the Agilent DSOX line is the waveforms update rate:
2000wfs/s for the Hameg, 50000wfs/s for the DSOX2000, 100000Wfs/s for the DSOX3000

If you need that, there's not much of an alternative to the DSOX line in that price range. In nearly every other aspect, the HMO1024 is superior to a DSOX2014A, especially regarding the record length. Indeed, feature wise the HMO line is better comparable to the DSOX3000 line, which however is much more expensive.

Also keep in mind that lots of the features that Agilent advertises and that Dave praises in his review are just options which have to be paid for. When buying the options for the Agilent that the HMO already has, the price difference becomes even more impressive.

I could offer a comparison obviously made by a Hameg employee which seems to be rather objective though. Problem is that it's German Maybe you can still make sense of some of the tables.
http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/113595/mikrocontrollernet_Antworten_HAMEG.pdf

As a side note: in the beginning, you wanted to buy a <$500 2ch scope, now we're in the 2k$ 4ch range. This is a lot of money for hobby projects and for a 1st scope. Honestly I just went through the same decision and really toyed with the idea of buying an HMO1024 because anything below that has that scent of being a compromise and/or B-stock.

In the end, I decided that it was crazy to fling away so much money for a technical toy that I will only use now and then. Also I came to the conclusion that 2ch are indeed sufficient, although 4ch would be cooler of course. Then again, in most cases were I use 4ch in the job, I'd better use a logic analyzer. Especially for my private stuff, the main purpose of a 4ch setup would have been SPI bus and things like that and therefore I bought an Open Logic Sniffer (and as I was in a shopping frenzy, also a ZeroPlus LAP-C 16032 which I patched into a 16128).

Sure, it's your money after all and I understand your considerations, but maybe you should have a 2nd look at an Owon 7102 or at the Rigol if you like and try to convince your inner Geek that a basic Chinese scope is really enough to look at a signal now and then. If you need to use it on a daily basis to get your work done, this is a different thing of course.

[aparlett]

Yeah I think that's one thing that has been putting me away from the cheaper scopes. I'm going to be keeping the scope for at least 3 year, and using it  fairly often.
Like i have checked $1000 on a video card or ram before so it kinda feels like I'm cheating not putting in something substantial for a scope.

But saying that I dont think i need to get an Agilent at the time  something like the HAMEGS should do me fine fora few years to come.

I will do a bit more research, and then hopefully  order my scope in a week

thanks for you help and advice

[0xdeadbeef]

Well, just in case you really get the Hameg, I guess some people here would be interested in a mini-review. Nothing spectacular, just a few words about how you can work with it and if it has any annoying quirks.

[opticpow]

After speaking two quite a few people and getting prices.
I am 80% sure I'm going to get the
HAMEG [HMO724]

So, did you get it?

[Wim_L]

There are other factors involved too. Physical size of the scope, for example. While I like analog scopes for analog measurements (superior image quality!), it cannot be denied that having a small, compact scope that will fit in small spots and will make no attempts to crush devices of less robust construction you put it on, has certain advantages too! Sometimes, those advantages make it worth it to compromise on image quality. Another reason to take a small, lightweight DSO might be if you're a student in a small room where every bit of space counts.

[vaughnburrows]

Well, just in case you really get the Hameg, I guess some people here would be interested in a mini-review. Nothing spectacular, just a few words about how you can work with it and if it has any annoying quirks.

Here is a nice review of a similar model it's the Hameg 2024