good choice for first oscilloscope

[aparlett]

Hello

I am a student,at university and am looking for a oscilloscope around the $300-$450, Would you be able to recommended any good scopes.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RIGOL-DS-1052E-Digital-Oscilloscope-DS1052E-50MHz-2ch-/330519999733?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item4cf486f4f5
is anything like that good?

thanks Antony

[Psi]

Watch some of the eevblog episodes on that scope and find out

[bearman]

I bought the Rigol DS 1052E about 6 months ago.  It is plenty of O-scope for the money.   Not sure where you live but make sure you buy one from a local supplier so you can get a local warranty.   I have read bad things about some folks buying from China providers that don't provide good warranty support.

I got mine from Tequipment with free shipping for $399.00 USD here in the USA.

You might want to get an analog unit for starters.   I still like my 20 something year old analog O-scope for some apps.  The old CRT traces are like looking at a campfire.  They are more comforting than the digitized signals  on a DSO screen.

I use the DSO mostly for apps where I want to capture and save diplays for future reference and detail evaluation.

B

[vk6zgo]

I agree about the analog 'scope.
I feel too many people get hung up on the "bells & whistles" on modern digital 'scopes,& never learn the basics of what an Oscilloscope is about!
It isn't a DMM.or a source of pretty graphs for your PC.
It is a uniquely versatile instrument for testing,fault finding experimentation etc.
You don't need readouts to determine things like frequency,risetime,signal amplitude,read the graticule,& figure 'em out in your head--that's where the EE resides---not in your Rigol ( or your PC or Mac,for that matter)!
The more you have to think about things,the better the understanding you end up with.
A good analog 'scope is not a simple instrument,by any stretch of the imagination,& you will find yourself using it in many ways you never expected.

Once you've learned how versatile a 'scope can be,if you then get a digital,you will be able to push the thing to its limits,rather than accepting whatever compromises the "auto" button provides.

Having had my rant,I must admit I don't have a digital 'scope,but from everything I've read on EEV Blog,the Rigol sounds like the way to go!

VK6ZGO

[sub]

The extra memory depth of a digital scope can be pretty useful for digital work, though---as long as you don't get into the habit of using the auto button they don't do too much damage.  The ability to take screenshots is nice as well.

I have the Rigol DS1052E and am quite happy with it.  Since you're in Australia, you probably want to buy locally---Emona sell it for $440 with a three-year warranty (though I can't find that bit on the site).

[shadewind]

The biggest advantage of a DSO is the single shot capability, something which is invaluable, at least to me. I wouldn't worry about the Auto button on a DSO. Saying "learn how to do it manually" is enough for any adult, we're not talking about raisin children here ("you can have one when you're older and have learned responsibility"). Buying an analog oscilloscope when what he probably wants in the end seems a bit like a waste of money even though analog oscilloscopes are good to have around.

Regarding the Rigol, it seems to me like it is _the_ hobbyist/low end scope. It seems to be what is recommended pretty much everywhere. I have one and I like it very much (though, admittedly, I don't have much to compare it with except old Tek scopes from university which certainly beats on interface and features at least). The interface is easy to understand an it has all the features I need although higher bandwidth is always nice, of course. The build quality seems excellent though I haven't drop tested it of course

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of those "young whippersnappers" (as Dave would put it) who has never owned an analog oscilloscope but I still never use the auto button. The auo button simply doesn't give you what you want most of the time. Learning how to operate scales and positions is something you can learn in quickly anyway, it's very simple.

[kripton2035]

my two cents...
if you're studing analog or high frequencies dont buy a digital scope or at least a very expensive one ...
if you're studing slow analog electronics, it would be ok for the rigol
if you're studing digital electronics with microcontrolers, better buy a small logic analyzer like the logic sniffer
at the end, better buy a used analog-digital "combo" scope like hameg did (or fluke)
you will see many more things than on a pure digital one...
and you will eventually pay less than the rigol

for microtontrolers: try to see and more interpret i2c signals on the rigol... good luck !

[aparlett]

Thanks so much, that's quite allot to think about.
I don't think I will ever uses the auto set button, on of my lectures went crazy cues he saw a student use one.

At uni I am doing.
>electronics
>logic /micros
> electrical eg power supply designs
a lot of the times they need screen caps of the  O-scope

I think I will need a scope as well as logic analyzer.
Looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of research.

I found a few good Australian websites, that stock scopes.

Would it be better to get separate  O-scope and logic analyzer

[vk6zgo]

The biggest advantage of a DSO is the single shot capability, something which is invaluable, at least to me. I wouldn't worry about the Auto button on a DSO. Saying "learn how to do it manually" is enough for any adult, we're not talking about raisin children here ("you can have one when you're older and have learned responsibility"). Buying an analog oscilloscope when what he probably wants in the end seems a bit like a waste of money even though analog oscilloscopes are good to have around.

Regarding the Rigol, it seems to me like it is _the_ hobbyist/low end scope. It seems to be what is recommended pretty much everywhere. I have one and I like it very much (though, admittedly, I don't have much to compare it with except old Tek scopes from university which certainly beats on interface and features at least). The interface is easy to understand an it has all the features I need although higher bandwidth is always nice, of course. The build quality seems excellent though I haven't drop tested it of course ;

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of those "young whippersnappers" (as Dave would put it) who has never owned an analog oscilloscope but I still never use the auto button. The auo button simply doesn't give you what you want most of the time. Learning how to operate scales and positions is something you can learn in quickly anyway, it's very simple.

Fair comment!
In turn,I'm an OF who has never owned a digital oscilloscope.I have used some of the earlier Tek & HP ones,& was sorely disappointed by their poor performance at the time.
Obviously the performance has improved radically since then!

I usually use oscilloscope to fault find in a piece of equipment ,signal,dc supplies & all,with the DMM only occasionally being necessary,
An analog 'scope in "free run" mode & dc coupled is very useful to do this,as you can check various points through the equipment,without needing an extremely accurate indication,just--Is what's supposed to be there present? Is something present that shouldn't be?
If you find,say a hum signal on your dc,you can then trigger on it to check it more closely.
On the digital'scopes I've used,there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to "free -running" an analog."Auto" doesn't hack it!

I'm not  saying,you can't use a digital to trace faults,it's just that to me,it's clunkier!

My feeling is that using a digital is much more  structured,as you tend to look at signals you already know the characteristics of,rather than use the more "free wheeling" method that is common with a analog.

Perhaps for EEs this fits their requirements just as well,or better.
 
VK6ZGO

[shadewind]

The biggest advantage of a DSO is the single shot capability, something which is invaluable, at least to me. I wouldn't worry about the Auto button on a DSO. Saying "learn how to do it manually" is enough for any adult, we're not talking about raisin children here ("you can have one when you're older and have learned responsibility"). Buying an analog oscilloscope when what he probably wants in the end seems a bit like a waste of money even though analog oscilloscopes are good to have around.

Regarding the Rigol, it seems to me like it is _the_ hobbyist/low end scope. It seems to be what is recommended pretty much everywhere. I have one and I like it very much (though, admittedly, I don't have much to compare it with except old Tek scopes from university which certainly beats on interface and features at least). The interface is easy to understand an it has all the features I need although higher bandwidth is always nice, of course. The build quality seems excellent though I haven't drop tested it of course ;

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of those "young whippersnappers" (as Dave would put it) who has never owned an analog oscilloscope but I still never use the auto button. The auo button simply doesn't give you what you want most of the time. Learning how to operate scales and positions is something you can learn in quickly anyway, it's very simple.

Fair comment!
In turn,I'm an OF who has never owned a digital oscilloscope.I have used some of the earlier Tek & HP ones,& was sorely disappointed by their poor performance at the time.
Obviously the performance has improved radically since then!

I usually use oscilloscope to fault find in a piece of equipment ,signal,dc supplies & all,with the DMM only occasionally being necessary,
An analog 'scope in "free run" mode & dc coupled is very useful to do this,as you can check various points through the equipment,without needing an extremely accurate indication,just--Is what's supposed to be there present? Is something present that shouldn't be?
If you find,say a hum signal on your dc,you can then trigger on it to check it more closely.
On the digital'scopes I've used,there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to "free -running" an analog."Auto" doesn't hack it!

I'm not  saying,you can't use a digital to trace faults,it's just that to me,it's clunkier!

My feeling is that using a digital is much more  structured,as you tend to look at signals you already know the characteristics of,rather than use the more "free wheeling" method that is common with a analog.

Perhaps for EEs this fits their requirements just as well,or better.
 
VK6ZGO

I believe it all comes down to what "feels right" in these situations. I'm a software guy so I tend to enjoy working with digital equipment, that's what feels at home to me.

Regarding "free run" mode, I'm not sure what that really means, though. There is an "Auto" trigger mode (not to be confused with the auto button!) which just draws arbitrarily draws the waveform if it cannot find a triggering signal (seems like what you're describing) and then there's the "Normal" trigger mode which doesn't update the waveform unless there's a trigger. Finally, there's also a "Manual" triggering mode which doesn't update the waveform unless you explicitly press the "Run/Stop" button. If you do, it waits for the trigger and then retains the waveform until the next time you press the button. That's what you'd want to use if you want to capture a single shot signal. "Auto" mode is what I normally use. That way, if there's no triggering, I can at least see what is going on somewhat, then I can adjust the trigger level if I want to see more details.

[0xdeadbeef]

>electronics
>logic /micros
> electrical eg power supply designs
a lot of the times they need screen caps of the  O-scope

You should also consider the Owon SDS 7102 (or 8102). Big LCD screen, highest record length of all affordable scopes (true 10Msamples per channel).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4412.0

I think I will need a scope as well as logic analyzer.

I made the same consideration and decided it was much cheaper and better to get an affordable 2ch scope (the Owon 8102 in my case) and a separate USB logic analyzer. Two interesting logic analyzers to look into could be the Open Logic Sniffer (cheap and open, but not very robust) and the ZeroPlus LogicCube (lots of free protocol analyzers, 32k version can be patched into 128k version).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0

[vk6zgo]

[/quote]
I believe it all comes down to what "feels right" in these situations. I'm a software guy so I tend to enjoy working with digital equipment, that's what feels at home to me.

Regarding "free run" mode, I'm not sure what that really means, though. There is an "Auto" trigger mode (not to be confused with the auto button!)  which just arbitrarily draws the waveform if it cannot find a triggering signal (seems like what you're describing) and then there's the "Normal" trigger mode which doesn't update the waveform unless there's a trigger . Finally, there's also a "Manual" triggering mode which doesn't update the waveform unless you explicitly press the "Run/Stop" button. If you do, it waits for the trigger and then retains the waveform until the next time you press the button. That's what you'd want to use if you want to capture a single shot signal. "Auto" mode is what I normally use. That way, if there's no triggering, I can at least see what is going on somewhat, then I can adjust the trigger level if I want to see more details.
[/quote]

That sounds almost exactly  the same. I used the slang term "free run", instead of "Auto" to avoid confusion.

This function works on an analog as follows:-

With the 'scope in "Auto" trigger,& no input,it will display a line on the screen,scanning at whatever time/cm rate is set.

If the 'scope is dc coupled,you can set  the vertical scale to a convenient setting & look at dc voltages in this condition.

If you apply an ac (or varying dc) signal,to the input,you will see it drifting across the screen.If the time/cm is not too long or short,adjusting the trigger level will give a stable display .

If you now switch to "Normal",the 'scope will stay triggered,but if you remove the signal,the screen will go blank.

The early digitals did not have any equivalent to the "Auto " trigger mode.It seems that this has been addressed.

VK6ZGO

[EEVblog]

IMO, there is no contest these days at all.
If you can only have ONE scope, it has to be a real-time digital storage type with deep memory (a.k.a Rigol DS1052E).
As shadewind said, single shot capture capability is the kick-arse advantage over an analog scope (or an older DSO that uses repetitive sampling).
Being able to probe something and them simply hit STOP and be able to inspect the waveform on the screen in invaluable.
Then of source you can capture pre and post trigger data, so you can see what caused something to happen.

When you throw in the advantage of the small size of the modern low end DSO's like the Rigol, it's a no-brainer decision, get one.
As for the difference between the Rigol and others like OWON, Tekway, or whoever, there isn't much in it these days.
Rigol just hit the price point before everyone else, and were "legitimised" by being rebadged by Agilent, so they gained the lions share of the market. And of course they are decent quality for the price.

By all means though, get an analog to start off with and it makes is useful companion scope to the DSO. In fact, I'd recommend that if you have the space.

Dave.

[0xdeadbeef]

As for the difference between the Rigol and others like OWON, Tekway, or whoever, there isn't much in it these days.

Well the Owon SDS line has a much larger display with higher resolution and a ten times larger record length even under best conditions for the Rigol. If the price is the limit, the Rigol is still the best choice in the 350€ range if you can live with 50MHz or are willing to risk the hack, but for about 100€ more, you get a true 100MHz SDS7102. The only thing that really sucks about the Owon is the customer support. I.e. they don't offer free firmware downloads but you have to contact them directly to get a bugfixed firmware (and it's not like they react instantly). And yeah, the menu buttons and the multi-purpose rotary knob feel a little cheap. Apart from that it's a great little scope.

[aparlett]

>electronics
>logic /micros
> electrical eg power supply designs
a lot of the times they need screen caps of the  O-scope

You should also consider the Owon SDS 7102 (or 8102). Big LCD screen, highest record length of all affordable scopes (true 10Msamples per channel).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4412.0

I think I will need a scope as well as logic analyzer.

I made the same consideration and decided it was much cheaper and better to get an affordable 2ch scope (the Owon 8102 in my case) and a separate USB logic analyzer. Two interesting logic analyzers to look into could be the Open Logic Sniffer (cheap and open, but not very robust) and the ZeroPlus LogicCube (lots of free protocol analyzers, 32k version can be patched into 128k version).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0

Yeah thanks I have looked at the open logic sniffer and it looks quite good,

Also I found a package on farnell
http://au.element14.com/tenma/tenma-bench-kit-8/psu-fn-generator-dmm-scope/dp/190356301

it looks ok what do you guys think.

[aparlett]

I have decided to bump up my max spend to around 1000?

looking at element they have 10% off any suggestions would be great, saw a few brands

• GW INSTEK
• LECROY
• TEKTRONIX
• TENMA

thanks

[EEVblog]

Also I found a package on farnell
http://au.element14.com/tenma/tenma-bench-kit-8/psu-fn-generator-dmm-scope/dp/190356301

it looks ok what do you guys think.

Unless you've done your research on each item, and that's what you want, better value can be had elsewhere.

For example, for the same price you could buy:
Rigol  DS1052 $440 (Emona)
Agilent U1242B meter $260 (http://triosmartcal.com.au/1970-agilent-u1242b-handheld-digital-multimeter-4-digit.html)
Atten Power Supply APS3003S-3D $220 (http://triosmartcal.com.au/dc-bench-supplies/2432-atten-aps3003s-3d-dual-power-supply-0-30v-3a.html)
And you can squeeze in one of these for what's left:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-ATTEN-ATF20B-Signal-FUNCTION-GENERATOR-20MHZ-/320766909234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aaf329b32

And those are mostly Australian prices, Australian suppliers, with GST.

No contest IMO.

That Tenma bench meter looks like rebadged Uni-T, in which case I've used one, and they are awful.

Dave.

[0xdeadbeef]

While this gets a little offtopic, I think the ATTEN ATF20B is pretty crappy. I.e. the USB port is obviously a fake, the signal amplitude depends on the frequency and the max. frequency on the signal type. All in all it pretends to be something that it isn't (namely a higher class arbitrary generator like the Agilent 33521A/33522A).
If to select a low cost chinese signal generator, I'd suggest at least a Rigol DG1021/1022, even though it also has its quirks. At least this has some arbitrary functionality, although it kinda sucks.
I recently stumbled over another Chinese generator called Siglent SDG1020, which seems to have a 16k arbitrary function, which would be somewhat usable. On the paper, it sounds pretty neat, yet it's a bit too cheap for the functionality it offers, so there's probably a catch somewhere:
http://www.siglent.com/en/product_show.asp?articleid=156
One thing I found when quickly browsing through the datasheet is that the output amplitude seems to be limiteed to 5Vpp (50Ohm) for frequencies >10MHz.

[aparlett]

thanks there's so much to take in,

Its a big risk chucking money on cheap brands that may not work.

What are some well know brands i could look into?

theses are what im looking at atm (first two 10% off price)
GW INSTEK - GDS-1102 - OSCILLOSCOPE, DSO, 100MHZ, COLOUR
http://au.element14.com/gw-instek/gds-1102/oscilloscope-dso-100mhz-colour/dp/1563800

LECROY - WAVEACE 112 - OSCILLOSCOPE, 100MHZ, 2-CH, 4KPTS/CH
http://au.element14.com/lecroy/waveace-112/oscilloscope-100mhz-2-ch-4kpts/dp/163330801

TEKTRONIX - TDS1002C-EDU - OSCILLOSCOPE, 60MHZ, 2 CH, 1GS/S
http://au.element14.com/tektronix/tds1002c-edu/oscilloscope-60mhz-2-ch-1gs-s/dp/187749801

 I have spent $1000 on a video card so spending more on an O-scope that is going to last way more than a few years is worth it i guess :-)

[Bored@Work]

While this gets a little offtopic, I think the ATTEN ATF20B is pretty crappy.
...
I recently stumbled over another Chinese generator called Siglent SDG1020, which seems to have a 16k arbitrary function, which would be somewhat usable.

You basically stumbled over the same crap. Siglent is just an other name Atten uses. Rumor is in the past Atten had a bit of legal trouble with Rigol over some stuff they copied, so the founded another Brand, Siglent, rebadged, and continued selling the stuff under question. Since then Siglent is around. This SDG1020 might have a working USB port, and has another front panel, which would distinguish it from the ATF20B, but otherwise it should come from the same source. And without having seen the USB port working, I would not bet the farm on it.

[0xdeadbeef]

To get even close to the technical data (sample frequency, record length) of an Owon SDS7102/8102 , you need to pay at least 3x the price to get a real good brand like Agilent and Hameg. Every "brand" scope below this is usually rebranded China stuff (e.g. the low end LeCroys etc.) and not worth paying extra money for.

If you can live with 70MHz and rather small record length (100k), the Agilent X2000 series starts around 1000€ for 2ch@70MHz for the DSOX2002A, which can be extended to an MSO (with additional logic probe).

A better choice IMHO would be a Hameg HMO series which starts around 1300€ (including VAT) for the 2ch@70MHz HMO722. It has a 2M record length and can be extended with an 8ch logic probe. You also get SPI decoding for free, which is somewhat nice (also a cheap USB LA can do this as well).

What I personally dislike about the Agilents is the fact that they make you pay for every little feature. E.g. in the job we have ~8000€ DSOs from Agilent which have a crappy record length and a ridiculously bad duty cycle/frequency measurement mainly because each and every feature in this scopes is crippled and they want you to pay extra money just to get the functionality that other scopes in this class offer for free.

Personally I struggled whether to spend the extra money for e.g. an HMO722 or HMO1022 (or even better, a 4ch HMO724 or 1024). Then again I decided that for my private projects, the Owon 8102 would suffice, plus it has the nice hires screen and the much larger full speed record length. For the job, I would not go below an Agilent DSOX3000 (not 2000!) or an HMO2024. 

[aparlett]

Also I found a package on farnell
http://au.element14.com/tenma/tenma-bench-kit-8/psu-fn-generator-dmm-scope/dp/190356301

it looks ok what do you guys think.

Unless you've done your research on each item, and that's what you want, better value can be had elsewhere.

For example, for the same price you could buy:
Rigol  DS1052 $440 (Emona)
Agilent U1242B meter $260 (http://triosmartcal.com.au/1970-agilent-u1242b-handheld-digital-multimeter-4-digit.html)
Atten Power Supply APS3003S-3D $220 (http://triosmartcal.com.au/dc-bench-supplies/2432-atten-aps3003s-3d-dual-power-supply-0-30v-3a.html)
And you can squeeze in one of these for what's left:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-ATTEN-ATF20B-Signal-FUNCTION-GENERATOR-20MHZ-/320766909234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aaf329b32

And those are mostly Australian prices, Australian suppliers, with GST.

No contest IMO.

That Tenma bench meter looks like rebadged Uni-T, in which case I've used one, and they are awful.

Dave.

thanks Dave

the Agilent U1242B meter looks awesome, I will be getting one in a week or two :-P

Now I need to chooses a scope, I came up with theses three what are your thoughts?
I think its better if i invest some money in something a bit better quality

GW INSTEK - GDS-1102 - OSCILLOSCOPE, DSO, 100MHZ, COLOUR
http://au.element14.com/gw-instek/gds-1102/oscilloscope-dso-100mhz-colour/dp/1563800

LECROY - WAVEACE 112 - OSCILLOSCOPE, 100MHZ, 2-CH, 4KPTS/CH
http://au.element14.com/lecroy/waveace-112/oscilloscope-100mhz-2-ch-4kpts/dp/163330801

TEKTRONIX - TDS1002C-EDU - OSCILLOSCOPE, 60MHZ, 2 CH, 1GS/S
http://au.element14.com/tektronix/tds1002c-edu/oscilloscope-60mhz-2-ch-1gs-s/dp/187749801

and thanks for your Blogs they are awesome I have picked up so much, stuff that they simply forget to tell us in class.

thanks Antony

[0xdeadbeef]

You basically stumbled over the same crap.
...
And without having seen the USB port working, I would not bet the farm on it.

Yeah, I kinda assumed there was a catch. At least the Sigilent claims that the USB port is working while the Atten doesn't even do that. Anyway, probably everything below a Rigol DG2041 is pretty much crap and if you send that much money, you could get a decent Agilent 33521A/33522A.
Hard to understand that there are some usable low end scopes, but the cheap signal generators are all crap.

[sub]

GW INSTEK - GDS-1102 - OSCILLOSCOPE, DSO, 100MHZ, COLOUR
LECROY - WAVEACE 112 - OSCILLOSCOPE, 100MHZ, 2-CH, 4KPTS/CH
TEKTRONIX - TDS1002C-EDU - OSCILLOSCOPE, 60MHZ, 2 CH, 1GS/S

The Lecroy/Tek have terrible memory depth.  Going from a Rigol to an older version of that Tek at uni, every twist of the timebase knob was met with a tear of disappointment.  The Lecroy you get only 250MSPS if you use all channels, according to the datasheet.

If you're going to spend $1k+ on the scope, you might as get the $1400 Agilent which seems to be all the rage nowdays (I haven't tried one myself).

Failing that, I'd suggest the Rigol, which I have on my desk now and have been reasonably happy with.

[alm]

If to select a low cost chinese signal generator, I'd suggest at least a Rigol DG1021/1022, even though it also has its quirks. At least this has some arbitrary functionality, although it kinda sucks.

Not sure if I'd consider that low cost. What about the few MHz DDS generators without arb features? They are quite useful for most work, and short of any requirements for higher bandwidth, arbitrary waveforms or computer control, this is what I'd recommend to a beginner. I think there's a GW-Instek model (SFG-1003?) that's got some positive reviews on this forum.

Hard to understand that there are some usable low end scopes, but the cheap signal generators are all crap.

A scope is much more essential than an arbitrary waveform generator in my opinion, so I guess the market is much larger. There are some quite usable function generators in my opinion.