Author Topic: New lab - no grounded outlets  (Read 30071 times)

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Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2013, 07:20:53 pm »
Wow, I cannot believe some of the answers coming from so-called "electrical engineers", holy shit!

Me neither!

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GFCI and arc-fault breakers are a last resort attempt at circumventing the process of your death. If you are lucky, you won't die. Don't bet your life on them. 100mA at mains voltage and you are dead.

The problem with RCDs and breakers is that you can't trust them to be always working. They can fail too! And if the RCD is the only line of defense you got, you got a nice SPOF! Proper grounding, RCDs and breakers all together are the best insurance currently available. Add an isolation transformer for the lab and you're ready to EE.
 

Offline ResR

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2013, 05:48:43 am »
In Estonia, it is not controlled who replaces the wall sockets or cables. Electrical parts (cable, sockets, switches, RCD and circuit breakers) is freely available to anyone to buy and install, only electric meter and main circuit breaker is sealed into electrical box. Most of the installations in here is soviet era TL-C system with aluminium wiring done by plumbers :scared:.
For my opinion, grounding metal cases is a must, double insulation even better. You can't rely just on a RCD and circuit breaker to break you from phase, because any mechanical equipment can and will eventually get stuck/break/misfire.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2013, 07:35:51 am »
The problem with RCDs and breakers is that you can't trust them to be always working. They can fail too!
Indeed they can. As can a ground connection.
 

alm

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2013, 09:15:33 am »
Which is why you want to have both.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2013, 09:28:12 am »
Which is why you want to have both.
Or check the actual accident statistics before making a decision that might entail spending a lot of money.
 

Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2013, 01:04:33 pm »
Which is why you want to have both.
Or check the actual accident statistics before making a decision that might entail spending a lot of money.

You got no idea what a DYI father is capable of :-) If a new safety device with some new technology would be available I would buy it immediately and throw it into my father's distribution panel.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2013, 04:17:35 pm »
Which is why you want to have both.
Or check the actual accident statistics before making a decision that might entail spending a lot of money.

That's true, you're much more likely to be killed driving to the store to buy the rewiring supplies :(
 

Offline westom

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2013, 06:49:40 pm »
If a new safety device with some new technology would be available I would buy it immediately and throw it into my father's distribution panel.
  GFCI as required in North America trips on 5 milliamps.  And will not reset if damaged.  That second condition was an upgrade from original designs implemented and required in the mid 1970s.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2013, 07:00:47 pm »
If a new safety device with some new technology would be available I would buy it immediately and throw it into my father's distribution panel.
  GFCI as required in North America trips on 5 milliamps.  And will not reset if damaged.  That second condition was an upgrade from original designs implemented and required in the mid 1970s.

So, they trip if you sneeze or dare to use an SMPS or two on them.
 

Offline westom

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2013, 07:04:15 pm »
So, they trip if you sneeze or dare to use an SMPS or two on them.
  Any SMPS that leaks even one milliamp is defective.  Any device that trips even intermittently on a 5 milliamp GFCI/RCD is defective.

  We expect leakage in our designs and equipment to be below 100 microamps.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2013, 07:07:09 pm »
The only time I've ever tripped a U.S. GFCI was when testing them, and I have plugged many SMPSs into them. Sneezed on them, too.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2013, 07:54:17 pm »
Here you find consumer RCD units trip at 30mA for single or three phase units, but you can get industrial units that are 100mA, 1A or 2A, mostly used for protection of 3 phase heating banks or industrial loads where you can get a high leakage current but want protection against a heater shorting to ground at the low end. They often have a delay built in to reduce nuisance tripping at the set current for a few seconds, but trip fast at high imbalances.

I had some old 1970's vintage units i took apart years ago. Inside was the core with the 2 mains windings on it wound so as to balance the magnetic field to zero in the nice permalloy tape core, and a sense coil of a few dozen turns of fine wire and a test wire of a dozen or so turns of fine wire with a resistor to limit the current through the test switch when pressed. The sensed current went to a small PCB with a bridge rectifier on it, made from 2 1N4001's and a pair of 12V 400mW zener diodes. One tantalum dipped capacitor for smoothing, then a trigger circuit made from a SCS to dump charge into the trip coil, a small coil with an Alnico magnet holding the latch mechanism in the closed position. When the imbalance current was enough the SCS would fire, dumping the stored charge on the capacitor into the coil, and opposing the Alnico magnet so it would be pushed off the coil by a light spring and then via a plunger pin tripping the main mechanism to switch the breaker to off. The newer ones do not have the PCB, the sense coil directly drives the trip coil, driving it into magnetic saturation and releasing the magnet irrespective of the pulse polarity.

On a side note these trip mechanisms were used on the first generation of prepaid electricity meters made by a local company, as they were already approved. These had a flaw in that they covered the existing test switch with a label, and the enterprising users found they could defeat the meter by pushing a pin through the label and then disabling the trip mechanism with it, thus getting free power. The next versions all were split, with the indoor unit only being a keypad that communicated via a 2 wire interface to the power switch outside up the pole, the 2 wires being built into the split concentric supply cable used for them as 2 0.5mm copper cores placed next to the earth strands.  A central 7 core 10mm line, 7 individually insulated neutrals making up 10mm and 3 cores making up the earth of 6mm with a blue and white 0.5mm control cores.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2013, 08:38:50 pm »
The only time I've ever tripped a U.S. GFCI was when testing them, and I have plugged many SMPSs into them. Sneezed on them, too.

Not that anyone should ever do this, of course, but if a friend of yours should happen to try testing a GFCI by placing finger and thumb between live and ground terminals to see how much it hurts before it trips, make sure that friend does not accidentally touch the unprotected live terminal instead of the protected live terminal  :o

Not that anyone would be dumb enough to try that of course...  ::)
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2013, 09:03:03 pm »
Yeah, I know what 120VAC feels like, TYVM  :P

On the other hand, I wonder where 240VAC falls between 120VAC and 600VDC (damn oscilloscope had HV outside the HV warning shield...  :-/O :scared: :-DD)
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Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2013, 09:07:08 pm »
So, they trip if you sneeze or dare to use an SMPS or two on them.
  Any SMPS that leaks even one milliamp is defective.  Any device that trips even intermittently on a 5 milliamp GFCI/RCD is defective.

  We expect leakage in our designs and equipment to be below 100 microamps.

The local regulations allow that the Y filter caps in a moveable device may pass up to 3.5mA (<= 22nF). The standard RCD trips at 30mA to allow using several devices with Y filter caps (usually SMPSs) at the same time.   
 

Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2013, 09:19:18 pm »
The only time I've ever tripped a U.S. GFCI was when testing them, and I have plugged many SMPSs into them. Sneezed on them, too.

The small wart warts don't got PE  :-) The fun starts with grounded SMPSs like the ATX PSUs for PCs since they got two Y caps besides the X cap and the common-mode choke. The Y filter caps are between hot and PE, also neutral and PE.
 

Offline madires

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2013, 09:24:44 pm »
Yeah, I know what 120VAC feels like, TYVM  :P

On the other hand, I wonder where 240VAC falls between 120VAC and 600VDC (damn oscilloscope had HV outside the HV warning shield...  :-/O :scared: :-DD)

We got twice as much fun  :-DD
 

duskglow

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2013, 09:27:03 pm »
240V is halfway to arc flash territory.  At 480V you start needing PPE.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2013, 09:28:53 pm »
240V is halfway to arc flash territory.  At 480V you start needing PPE.

Oh, you need PPE with 240V.
 

Offline EmilTopic starter

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2013, 06:52:26 pm »
Thanks to everyone who replied to my question.

It sounds like my lab should definitely be grounded.

I will see if there is a ground cable behind the sockets. If there is I will check that it is actually connected to ground and install grounded sockets. If not I will get an electrician to fix it.
 
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2013, 05:26:49 pm »
GFCI as required in North America trips on 5 milliamps.  And will not reset if damaged.  That second condition was an upgrade from original designs implemented and required in the mid 1970s.
Thanks for this remark; I could almost swear they were specified for 30mA, and had todouble-check to see if I was not crazy...

We got twice as much fun  :-DD
Yep... Fun indeed. My home town was 220V/380V and I lost count of how many shocks I got from my experiments as a kid... :)
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: New lab - no grounded outlets
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2013, 05:31:24 pm »
GFCI as required in North America trips on 5 milliamps.  And will not reset if damaged.  That second condition was an upgrade from original designs implemented and required in the mid 1970s.
Thanks for this remark; I could almost swear they were specified for 30mA, and had todouble-check to see if I was not crazy...

They are. Everywhere else. But we protect circuits.
 


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