Fluke 787 for general elecronics

[Mr Pig]

Hello :0)

First post and an admission that I know virtually nothing about electronics! My teenage son however is doing a degree in sound production and electronics and I'm looking to buy him a decent multimeter. Yes, he should buy one himself but he's a student and therefore both tight and poor! I would ask him what he wants but I want to surprise him :0)

I've enjoyed watching loads of Dave's videos trying to learn all about multi-meters, liked the one where he chucked the Fluke off the bridge, but I've got an option on a meter I can't find much info on. The meter is a Fluke 787 processmeter, which is a multi-meter but with the added ability to output test signals too I think? Not exactly what I set out looking for but the meter is a good price and I am wondering if this model is suitable for general electronics use?

The blurb on it says it's based on the Fluke 87 but when you read the spec it's missing some stuff, for example it only measures current up to 1-amp, which doesn't seem like very much to me, but the point is that I don't know what is needed for electronics work. 

The other meter I'm looking at is the Fluke 179. Any advice on which to go for would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[retiredcaps]

It would help to know your budget and what country you live in so we can make recommendations.

The Fluke 787 is a specialized meter doesn't measure uA.  As such, it may not be the best fit for your son.  If, however, you are getting the Fluke 787 for $100 USD, then get it.  In Canada, the MSRP is around $950 CDN.

The Fluke 179 also doesn't measure uA, but again if you can get a new one for $100 USD or less, go for it.

[ElectroIrradiator]

The Fluke 179 also doesn't measure uA, but again if you can get a new one for $100 USD or less, go for it.

The 179 does measure 10 uA at a time, though.

Maximum resolution is 0.01 mA.

[AG6QR]

The 787 doesn't appear to have a bar graph.  The 179 (like most meters at its level or above in the Fluke line) has a bar graph that gives a visual indication of voltage, updated about 60 times per second, virtually as fast as you can watch it.

The 179 also has temperature measurement via a thermocouple, which can be handy for a variety of things included checking heat sinks on electronic gear.  The 787 lacks this.

For my own use, I don't think I'd give up the bar graph and the 10A current range for the current loop features of the 787.  I'm sure the 787 is a wonderful tool for those who need to troubleshoot current loop process control systems, but that's not me.  The 179 is a more suitable general purpose meter, I believe.  That's especially true if you're paying anything close to the retail prices for the meters.  The 179 sells for roughly 1/3 the price of a 787.

As for microamps, none of the Flukes with a microamp range implement it with a burden voltage that is low enough for general electronics work, as far as I know.   See Dave's early videos on the microCurrent for an explanation if needed.  The microAmp range on most Flukes is intended for something like the flame sensor on a gas burning appliance, where the voltage source is high enough that the meter's burden voltage isn't so important.  For microamps, get one of Dave's microcurrent devices, and use it with your favorite voltmeter.

[alm]

As for microamps, none of the Flukes with a microamp range implement it with a burden voltage that is low enough for general electronics work, as far as I know.   See Dave's early videos on the microCurrent for an explanation if needed.

Burden voltage of the 87V is 100 uV/uA in the uA ranges, or 600 mV full scale. Not perfect for all applications, but by no means unusable.

The microAmp range on most Flukes is intended for something like the flame sensor on a gas burning appliance, where the voltage source is high enough that the meter's burden voltage isn't so important.

That applies to the electricians/HVAC meters like the Fluke 16, not to the electronics meters like the 87.

[echen1024]

Does the U1272A fare any better?

[Mr Pig]

Thanks for the replies.

I can pick up a 179, in new condition, for the same price as the 787. I realise the 787 is a higher quality tool but as you say, that's no very relevant if it doesn't do what he'll need it to do. Exactly what that is, I don't know!

If it's any help he'll be working in pro audio, so amplifiers, PA gear, sound desks, microphones, all that kind of stuff. So doesn't seem to have done a lot of electronics yet, just assembling a couple of project-type kits. He may have done other stuff I don't know about.

No, the 787 does not look like it has a bar graph. It doesn't look like it measures capacitance or temperature either, unlike the 179, but I was wondering how important these, and the current measurement, were in electronics and if the higher quality of the 787 made up for these omissions?

Budget is about £150 UK pounds.

[Lightages]

There are better buys than Flukes. Fluke have the reputation and are very well built but they lack features sometimes for their price. For much lower than your budget I think a Brymen BM257 would be a better choice than the 179.
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm257/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/#t2124273784491a077016c86c4fddf4a5

or a Brymen BM829 which well suited to audio work because it has dB measurement:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm829/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/#

or if you can up your budget a bit, the top of the line BM869:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/#t2124273784491a077016c86c4fddf4a5

I have the BM257 and the BM869 and I can assure you they are better buys than the Flukes. There is a lot of information here and on you tube about these Brymens and similar models. They are so good, I purchased one Brymen, then two more.

[Mr Pig]

I have the BM257 and the BM869 and I can assure you they are better buys than the Flukes.

Cheers, they look good! Watched an EEVblog video on them and they look just the ticket. Unfortunately they don't seem to be widely available in the UK but I'll have a scout about and see what I can find. Might have to buy one from China.

The video mentioned that they are sold under other names. Perhaps those ones are sold in the UK?

Thanks again :0)

[Mr Pig]

I found this: http://www.tester.co.uk/downloads/dl/file/id/875/metrel_md_9050_digital_multimeter_datasheet.pdf

It's a re-badged Bryman, looks like decent spec and is available over here for about £130. What do you think?

I reckon I should be able to pick up a Fluke 179 for similar money, do you think the Fluke would be any better? The only thing I like about Fluke is that it has the name which means it'll hold its value better and just generally give the owner a warm fuzzy feeling ;0)

[mianchen]

Brymen can be bought from tme.eu

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Lightages]

Yes, tme.eu, just as I had provided the links to. You can also buy them from a member here who is highly regarded and trusted, iloveelectronics. You can PM for a direct sale here for possibly a lower price or you can visit his ebay store and see the full prices with shipping. He also includes better leads than tme.eu provides with theirs.
http://stores.ebay.com/99centHobbies

[ElectroIrradiator]

I reckon I should be able to pick up a Fluke 179 for similar money, do you think the Fluke would be any better? The only thing I like about Fluke is that it has the name which means it'll hold its value better and just generally give the owner a warm fuzzy feeling ;0)

Whether a 179 would be better than any other given meter is probably a personal decision. I can tell you why I very much appreciate the warm, fuzzy feeling using a Fluke gives me, but it may not make much sense to you.

I frequently work with equipment voltages of many hundred volts, and have once too many experienced what a dead short on a powerful DC supply rail means (big boom, sometimes involving metal shrapnel from your tool and/or instantaneous spot welds!)

Finally had enough of that, and today I absolutely refuse to use any piece of test gear for a situation like this, unless I am 100% unconditionally certain it *will* go the distance. A Fluke meter like the 179 will have multiple, independently verified tests of its CAT rating, provided by UL, VDE, TÜV and CSA.

The meter you link claims CAT-IV protection to 1000V, which sounds impressive. Until, that is, you realize the datasheet doesn't list any independent test laboratories, who are prepared to back up this claim. Checking Brymen's homepage it seems they only bother seeking certification from UL.

I'll start considering other brands for my high voltage work, once Fluke meters fall me in the trust I bestow them. Not to mention I also know for how long a new Fluke meter will last: About as long as either Fluke or I am alive, as many of Fluke's models carries a lifetime warranty.

If your son only works with low voltages, then all this probably doesn't matter in the least...

[Lightages]

So, a UL listing and a CATIV 1000 rating is not good enough? That is as high as it gets. Yes Fluke has the reputation but that doesn't mean they are the only game in town. There was recently a thread here on one of the sections where someone got killed using a Fluke 87 80 series meter on a 2kV power cabinet. It seems to me that if the Fluke was to meet its CATIII CATIV 600V rating he should still be alive. I can't find the post right now.

I am not sure that his Fluke was a later model with higher CAT standards, but it was a Fluke and it failed. Are you going to stop buying Flukes now? No, of course not. Does it mean that other meters with the same ratings and verified with a proper 3rd party lab test are lesser than Flukes in this regard? No, it's just fanboyism and/or personal bias. Well a Fluke blowing up and not protecting the owner says something to me too. There are other well made and safe brands available.

EDIT:
I just found the link:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/safety-first!-a-sad-story/

[Lightages]

The meter you link claims CAT-IV protection to 1000V, which sounds impressive. Until, that is, you realize the datasheet doesn't list any independent test laboratories, who are prepared to back up this claim. Checking Brymen's homepage it seems they only bother seeking certification from UL.

UL isn't a third party certification? 

[nanofrog]

The other meter I'm looking at is the Fluke 179. Any advice on which to go for would be greatly appreciated.

The Brymen BM869 would be a lot more meter for the money than the Fluke 179, hands down (lots more features, same CAT VI ratings <safety>, 500k counts for DC voltage, 50k counts for everything else IIRC vs. 6k counts for the Fluke 179).

I frequently work with equipment voltages of many hundred volts, and have once too many experienced what a dead short on a powerful DC supply rail means (big boom, sometimes involving metal shrapnel from your tool and/or instantaneous spot welds!)

Brymen is built quite well based on teardowns (incl. the BM857 I have, which is an older model equivalent to the BM867). IIRC, another member tested it's voltage safety, and it survived the max setting available (5kV?).

Seems well made to me.   

Checking Brymen's homepage it seems they only bother seeking certification from UL.

UL is an independent lab here in the US, and is well respected (quite tough on their testing, so it's not just a rubber stamp approval you get when you pay the testing fee; if it fails, they will not issue their approval).

...as many of Fluke's models carries a lifetime warranty.

Maybe it's different in your country, as the "Lifetime" warranty here in the US actually has limits, meaning ~7 - 10 years, depending on purchase date, EOL, and availability of spare parts (as I understand it, past 7 yrs., it's up to Fluke's discretion if they'll cover it up to 10 years, based on if they have the parts to repair it).

Check the fine print: http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/service/warranties/default.htm

[Lightages]

It was me. I put 5kV into the BM869. This is not a valid test because it only had a maximum of 2ma available but it did not fail.

[nanofrog]

It was me. I put 5kV into the BM869. This is not a valid test because it only had a maximum of 2ma available but it did not fail.

Couldn't recall who performed the test, and didn't recall the current at all. 

Better than nothing at all though, IMHO. 

BTW, what was the current at 1kV during your test?

[Lightages]

It would still be in the mA range.

Mr Pig:

Please excuse our going a bit off topic with the safety discussion. ElectroIrradiator and the rest here we only have the best intentions. For general electronics the 787 and 179 are really not the best buys. I really like the Brymens  that I have listed and have experience with them. I also have experience with many other brands.

If you wish to buy quality then an Agilent would also be a good choice.

[nanofrog]

If you wish to buy quality then an Agilent would also be a good choice.

I can also echo this.

Had good service from mine (U1252B), which has similar specs & features to the BM869. It's more expensive though, even for US pricing.

[Lightages]

You might also want to consider this Amprobe:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/37xr-a/portable-digital-multimeters/amprobe/37xr/#

Dave did a review on it and it is also a full featured meter and well built.

[ElectroIrradiator]

UL isn't a third party certification? 

The meter the OP links, which is what I commented on, isn't a Brymen. The datasheet for the non-Brymen meter doesn't claim to have been certified by any independent test lab, at least not as far as I could easily see. The OP claims the meter he is considering is a clone of a Brymen, yet the clone seems to have lost its UL certification during the cloning process.

Nor could I find any info on whether Brymen meters have been tested at any of the other well known test labs, apart from UL, so it didn't follow that the clone may have 'lost' other certifications.

I'm sure UL does a fine job. However in Germany there are certain job tasks involving high voltage, which by law requires that the test tools used are either TÜV or VDE approved, I forget which one it is. So if Brymen meters are not approved by either of them, then Brymen meters cannot be used professionally in Germany. That may help explain why the brand isn't too commonly seen in Europe, and is why I may have sounded surprised at the lack of these stamps of approval.

[ElectroIrradiator]

So, a UL listing and a CATIV 1000 rating is not good enough? That is as high as it gets. Yes Fluke has the reputation but that doesn't mean they are the only game in town. There was recently a thread here on one of the sections where someone got killed using a Fluke 87 80 series meter on a 2kV power cabinet. It seems to me that if the Fluke was to meet its CATIII CATIV 600V rating he should still be alive. I can't find the post right now.

(Snip.)
EDIT:
I just found the link:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/safety-first!-a-sad-story/

The guy, who was killed, used the wrong tool for the job. A CAT IV 600V rating doesn't mean the meter will break 8KV at serious power levels. The meter will survive a brief spike surge of 8KV without blowing up, as per the surge protection stipulation of 8 kV peak per IEC 1010.1-92, and the fuses will *break* up to 1 KV DC at very high energy levels.

Relying on the small fuses in CAT IV / 600V or 1000V rated meters to *break* a power circuit at 2.3KV is not a good idea, as demonstrated in the video.

The fuses are not rated for that kind of abuse. You need much larger ones for that level of voltage and energy.

[ElectroIrradiator]

If you wish to buy quality then an Agilent would also be a good choice.

I can also echo this.

Had good service from mine (U1252B), which has similar specs & features to the BM869. It's more expensive though, even for US pricing.

Agilent DMMs is another option, which I would like to test some day. Haven't had the chance so far though.

[nanofrog]

If you wish to buy quality then an Agilent would also be a good choice.

I can also echo this.

Had good service from mine (U1252B), which has similar specs & features to the BM869. It's more expensive though, even for US pricing.

Agilent DMMs is another option, which I would like to test some day. Haven't had the chance so far though.

Overall, it's quite decent. But it does have it's niggles (there's a thread or two that goes into detail, + Dave's review of the U1253A). Continuity is the one that stands out the most for me (bit slow, non-latching). Not the end of the world by any means though, and it's easy enough to grab the Brymen instead (good quality probes were the trick to this one).

Cost may be an issue, particularly in the EU. In my case, Agilent was running a rebate program in the US at the time, so I got $100USD back (IIRC, meter ran $350 after including the rebate), and I used some of the rebate to buy a couple of extras (data cable & soft case).