Education/licences

[David Aurora]

Hi, just found the Youtube channel recently and have been watching the hell out of it, and it led me to sign up here after looking around a bit.

Apologies if this has been discussed to death, but it's the kind if thing that tends to be pretty vague when you search other people's discussions of it because of different end goals.

I'm wondering about formal education and licencing in electronics (here in Australia, by the way). I'll try to explain my situation a bit...

I've been a recording engineer/producer for about 10 years. I know, every kid with a computer calls themselves an engineer or producer these days. But no, I don't just cut and paste pirated MP3 loops on a screen, I'm one of those dudes who actually knows how to use real studio gear and gets paid to do it.

I did actually do a little formal education before I started working (left school to do a cert. 4 in Audio Engineering) and that's what has put me off the idea of formal education. The lecturers were great, and the first month or so of the course was great while we dealt with important basic knowledge like standards and so on (e.g. frequency, decibels, how microphones and speakers actually work, etc). But after that... wow. Biggest waste of time in my life. Within 3 months I had stopped attending classes and only showed up to stay enrolled and do tests. Not because of laziness, but because the classes were so painfully slow that I could learn the same info on my own in a fraction of the time at home, and then spend the rest of my time putting the learning to work in practice by working for free/cheap on any job I could get for experience. In the end, I was one of only 2 guys I know from the whole class who wound up working in the field, which shows just how much time wasting happened there.

Over the years of building and running my own studio (though I'm freelance now), I was always making up my own cables and doing SUPER simple repairs/mods to gear and always wanted to find time to start learning to fix/build stuff myself. In the last year I've finally done that and I'm now spending a fair bit of time repairing, building and designing low voltage music equipment. There's times when I'm working on higher voltage stuff like my own tube amps, which is something I'd like to work more on when I'm ready, but the only reason I work on them now is that I had some bad experiences with "qualified techs" doing sloppy work and I found that what I lacked in knowledge I made up for in cautiousness and attention to detail. So I don't go diving into that stuff every day, but if there's a simple repair to be done I'll do it myself and so far I seem to still be alive and intact, and my gear is more reliable than when I used to pay techs to fix it.

Anyway, I love playing with this stuff, and I'd like to take it on as a bit more than a hobby at some point and work in both fields (using audio equipment as a recording engineer AND fixing/designing it). I figured I'm going to need a licence to legally plug things I've worked on into the wall at some point so I got on the phone today and found Tafe courses for getting a restricted licence. The local Tafe does it at the rate of one class a week for 20 weeks for a couple grand. I figure that's a bit drawn out and expensive to essentially confirm that I can fit a power plug. Another Tafe offered the course via distance so you can do it at your own pace (read: do nothing else until it's done) for about a quarter of the cost. Much more suitable. But... either way, you then need 20 or so hours of on the job experience with someone qualified, which is a bit tricky when I'm working for myself. They suggested that I could hire a sparky to come around and supervise while I fix a handful of cords and stuff... hardly seems like a tempting option.

While looking at courses I thought maybe I should also check out the idea of doing something with a bit more substance and studying electrical engineering properly. There's no way at this point in my life I could drop everything and go sit in a classroom for a few years so it would have to be a distance thing that I do in my own time and just go to a uni for tests or whatever they need. But then I keep thinking "What if it's like the audio course I did?". The fundamentals (even though I'm trying to study them in my own time already anyway) would definitely be great to cram into my skull, but if I wound up spending whole lessons hearing things like "This is a switch- if you flick it this way, it the light goes on. If you flick it the other way, the light goes off. Now you try... OK, good. This is a button- if you press it..." I would quite likely wind up going completely batshit crazy.

So yeah. Basically, I want to make sure I know the fundamentals of electricity enough to work the rest out for myself as required. I'm sure I'm on track to doing this on my own anyway, but if a formal education is going to teach me these things on a level I can't do by myself then I'd like to consider it. And whether or not I do study it formally, I'd like to be legally able to wire up equipment to mains power and repair stuff without having to drop my day job and go get an apprenticeship just to satisfy the on-the-job-experience-with-a-qualified-supervisor requirements of a licence.  Am I missing something here? A different approach, a simple solution, etc.? Maybe I'm just feeling a bit cynical about things like licencing, I tend to be more of a believer in common sense and doing careful work rather than worrying about a piece of paper that says you can do the job.

Thoughts/advice?

Cheers

[EEVblog]

If you work on anything mains related, you need an electrical license.
I'm sure others in the know will answer, but as far as I know, this varies greatly between state, and I was of the understanding that in some states it's not possible to get a license without going through a full apprenticeship. You can't just do a course like you used to be able to.
i.e. you can have a diploma/degree/masters/Phd in EE and they will still make you go and do an apprenticeship if you want to legally wire up a mains plug.
I hope I'm wrong...

Dave.

[Psi]

If you work on anything mains related, you need an electrical license.

I think it just needs to be checked and signed off by someone with a license. 

[David Aurora]

Dave- Yeah that's what I'm afraid of, being caught in the shit sandwich of not being able to legally work on stuff because I don't have a few years to spare for an apprenticeship 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to devalue being cautious with mains voltages, I never stuff around carelessly with it. I'm just getting the vibe with all I read that licensing is more about going through the motions than actually being sensible or technically competent.

The EE thing is more of a side note to the licence thing, although I figured if you've got a degree in EE you'd probably qualify for prior learning and be able to just apply directly for a licence rather than do any short course or anything?

Psi- I did wonder about that actually. If you could just build the thing and get a sparky to test it. Or get a test and tag licence so you're qualified to inspect it after you've worked on it (although I asked if a test and tag licence allows you to fit plugs and so on, and was told no).

It's all a little confusing to figure out the simplest way to do the right thing by the law unless you're going the household sparky apprenticeship route

[Psi]

If someone does check and sign off on something you made then they are legally responsible for it, not you.
So they are going to check it pretty thoroughly and want enough money to justify the risk they are taking.

[EEVblog]

If you work on anything mains related, you need an electrical license.

I think it just needs to be checked and signed off by someone with a license.

Of course.
Same can be said for building your own house, or your own electric car etc
That doesn't help solve the problem though.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Dave- Yeah that's what I'm afraid of, being caught in the shit sandwich of not being able to legally work on stuff because I don't have a few years to spare for an apprenticeship 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to devalue being cautious with mains voltages, I never stuff around carelessly with it. I'm just getting the vibe with all I read that licensing is more about going through the motions than actually being sensible or technically competent.

The EE thing is more of a side note to the licence thing, although I figured if you've got a degree in EE you'd probably qualify for prior learning and be able to just apply directly for a licence rather than do any short course or anything?

That used to be the way it was, but I am now under the impression that is not the case. (Sorry, have not checked exact details myself)
Silicon Chip has made a huge deal of the whole mess in recent years and even had a national wide petition to change the laws, but I think it failed.

Psi- I did wonder about that actually. If you could just build the thing and get a sparky to test it. Or get a test and tag licence so you're qualified to inspect it after you've worked on it (although I asked if a test and tag licence allows you to fit plugs and so on, and was told no).

Correct.
Anyone can get a test'n'tag license, and it's common to send someone from your company (the secretary, the gofer, the janitor, whoever) to the few day course so they can do it in-house instead of pay $5/tag

It's all a little confusing to figure out the simplest way to do the right thing by the law unless you're going the household sparky apprenticeship route

Yep, if you find out exact details please let me and everyone know.

Dave.

[vk6zgo]

I think it still depends on what State you live in.My WA "R"licence,which is valid till August 2013,allows me to:-

(1)Disconnect/reconnect fixed wired equipment to 1000V,limited to like-for-like replacement of motors rated at not greater than 22kW,solenoids,pressure switches & LV-ELV isolating transformers.

(2)Locate and rectify electrical faults like-for-like in up to 240V equipment connected by cord and plug only.

(3)Attach flexible cord and plug in up to 240V equipment.

(4) Locate and replace electrical faults like-for-like in up to 1000V equipment connected by cable & plug only.

(5)Attach flexible cable and plug in up to 1000V equipment.

Not authorised to install or alter fixed wiring.

Some of the above seem contradictory,but they represent the "approved work scope"
On the front of the card under "Approved Scope", I have :-1 2 3 4 5,so I can do all that stuff!

I think you can get an "R" licence with less of the items on it,so there are apparently different versions depending on your job.For instance,Plumbers may need to disconnect power from Hot Water Systems without calling an Electrician in.

Mine says that I'm authorised to do these things in association with Communication/Computing Equipment,so maybe I'm not allowed to do exactly the same thing with equipment which does other things!

Silly? yep!

The WA "R" licence is much more than just a "plugfitters" licence!

The course for this licence was only a few weeks at TAFE,but this was years ago.

There was a lot of talk about an Australia-wide "R" licence,but whether anything came of it,I don't know!

VK6ZGO

[David Aurora]

Somewhat comforting to see that it is in fact a murky subject and it wasn't just my comprehension skills haha.

I'll keep hunting and yeah if I find out anything I'll let you know.

I just can't get my head around the distinction between different aspects of electrical maintenance. Any old moron with no idea about electricity can change a fuse or light bulb or jump start a car, but it takes formal training and licencing to change a plug or connect a transformer? Shit, I probably shouldn't say that in public and give the authorities any ideas... it IS still legal to replace a light bulb, right??!! 

[Jimmy]

IS still legal to replace a light bulb, right??

Yeah but some company's wont allow it unless you have an electrical licenses have a working at heights certificate to be able to use a ladder and a working at heights permit with a safety observer present.
http://www.learningseat.com/servlet/ShopLearning?categoryName=OHS+Working+at+Heights&learningId=OHS09_WAH&companyId=oli



If you work on anything mains related, you need an electrical license.
I'm sure others in the know will answer, but as far as I know, this varies greatly between state, and I was of the understanding that in some states it's not possible to get a license without going through a full apprenticeship. You can't just do a course like you used to be able to.
i.e. you can have a diploma/degree/masters/Phd in EE and they will still make you go and do an apprenticeship if you want to legally wire up a mains plug.
I hope I'm wrong...

Dave.

Hope no longer Dave it is not as clear cut as you say. Like if you live in a remote rural area you can do whatever you want to.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4480.msg62460#msg62460


What state are you in. If you live near me I can help sign off on your restricted electrical license (PM ME).

Maybe do

http://www.tafe.qld.gov.au/cis/index.php?script_name=coursedetails&course_id=2105


Or see if you can join http://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/ and see if they will assess you to become a registrable engineer 

[David Aurora]

Jimmy- Cheers mate, very kind of you to offer! I'm on the Gold Coast.

I've spent a few hours last night and today looking into doing this:
http://www.usq.edu.au/handbook/2011/eng/ADNG.html (obviously majoring in electrical)

I dropped out of high school so getting into a higher level could be tricky, but according to the person I spoke to this one is a possibility. The way I see it after a couple years of study in my own time I'd A) have learned a lot of useful theory, and B) would have something legitimate to show if I was to try to get some kind of licence under a recognition of prior learning type thing.

But... I figured I better find out for sure about the laws and I called the official people to talk to (I started with a licencing section and got transferred through departments, and I'm hopeless at remembering the names of government departments but I think ultimately it was the Department of Electrical Safety and Licencing).

So here's the facts as told to me. The guy was really helpful and sounded like he understood the frustration, he even made some calls looking for loopholes but had no real success.

- No licence needed for extra low voltage obviously. The definition of extra low voltage given was 50 volts A.C. (I forgot to ask if that was peak or RMS) or 110 volts ripple free DC. I asked if current factored in and was told no. Funny, I would have thought there was a slight safety difference between playing with an LED and a few volts DC and pulling some decent current through a 50 volt A.C. supply, but there you go.
- Restricted licence is essentially useless for electrical work (at least here in Queensland). You can basically pull the plug on things like hot water systems or change a plug and that's about it. Really doesn't seem to be intended for actual electrical work, more just for other tradies to avoid calling a sparky to pull a plug.
- Yep, somebody with a degree in electrical engineering is not legally allowed to work on stuff above ELV. The argument they use is likening an EE and electrical mechanic to an architect and builder, theory vs. experience. So I asked if that meant a qualified EE could prototype a design that required building a basic power supply that connects to the wall. The answer was yes. But... if the device goes into production, that same EE can't repair one of the manufactured units. I could almost see the guy on the phone rolling his eyes as we went through this. Reading back over that I'm now wondering how the law views it if you work on a piece of equipment but don't touch anything past the filter caps (remembering that they specified ripple free DC)? Not trying to ask this in a smartass work around way. As an example, I have my mixing console on the bench right now. I'm only working on the audio input board, which is physically separated from the power supply board. I'm not even connected to that board, I'm just using my (illegally built) +/- 15 volt DC supply on my bench to power it for testing. So am I breaking the law because this is PART of a piece of equipment that connects to mains? Is it OK because it falls under the ELV category on it's own? Did I break the law by removing it from the mixing console? I'm stumped. I guess what I'm saying is, does ELV mean you're running those voltages off a store bought wall wart or can it be interpreted as anything up to those voltages inside other equipment?
- The guy couldn't find any way for someone to be legally allowed to work on things over ELV without actually going through the process of becoming an electrician and doing an apprenticeship (although I have read that you can "assist" an electrician while studying), with one exception. Apparently if you're working in the repair department for a big company, you don't need to be a qualified electrical mechanic. He asked the experts if one can have their workshop fall into this category and was told no. I don't know if that means that the big companies (the example he used was Rheem hot water systems) are assumed to have qualified supervisors on staff at a good ratio, or if it's a liability thing, or a company licencing thing or what, it was really vague.

Definitely pretty confused right now haha.

[Jimmy]

Yes it is frustrating

but

- Yep, somebody with a degree in electrical engineering is not legally allowed to work on stuff above ELV. The argument they use is likening an EE and electrical mechanic to an architect and builder, theory vs. experience. So I asked if that meant a qualified EE could prototype a design that required building a basic power supply that connects to the wall. The answer was yes. But... if the device goes into production, that same EE can't repair one of the manufactured units. I could almost see the guy on the phone rolling his eyes as we went through this.

I believe is incorrect

As per the electrical safety act an engineer can work as an electrician if he works for a company that has an electrical contractors license.

Did I break the law by removing it from the mixing console?

Yes

When you open up an appliance that has a mains connection and you can see where it is live then that falls under the category of "needing a license"  If it has a wall wort go for your life.

Remember it is almost always illegal to work live in qld. If you need to ask then you are not allowed to work live.   

[David Aurora]

Ahh yep I think that's how that Rheem example worked then, the company would have the electrical contractors licence. That only allowed non electrical mechanics to work in the on site service centre though, is that any different with a qualified engineer? And then how does a company get an electrical contractors licence? If a few years down the track I started a company building guitar amps, could my company get a licence which would allow me to work on the things or would I have to employ an electrical mechanic to supervise me?

Yeah I figured it was probably breaking the law. As with every other device I've ever opened up haha. I'm really stumped on how to proceed here. At home, sure, I'll open things up and tinker. But I'd like to be able to build stuff for other people down the line and I'm not doing that without covering my ass. But the only way to do that from what I've been able to find out is to quit my job and be an apprentice for 4 years which really isn't an option. If that's really the only option then my mind is truly blown.

Again, I'm not trying to half ass studying or safety, I want to learn more and do things right. But seeing as I can already wire up a power supply to mains without frying things or myself, I can't quite fathom how I'd need a 4 year apprenticeship to prove I can do it 

[David Aurora]

Another thought just sprung to mind about the restricted licence angle (to at least allow me to do things like re-tube my amps from time to time legally). From reading this http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/electrical-workers-and-contractors/licencing/restricted-electrical-licence-system-information-guide/elgiibility-for-a-restricted-electrical-licence I wonder if being an audio engineer (qualified, for whatever that's worth to them) is sufficient reason for a restricted licence. If I understand correctly what they're saying here http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/electrical-workers-and-contractors/licencing/restricted-electrical-licence-system-information-guide/scope-of-the-licence-system a restricted licence based on my job as an audio engineer would allow me to legally do basic equipment maintenance as long as I stay within original spec, right? So I could change tubes, recap things, replace cords and so on? It doesn't help with being allowed to build my own power supplies or do modifications to things, but it's a step in the right direction I guess which might help with future applications as far as prior experience goes

P.S. Sorry for thinking out loud so much here haha, just trying to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree

[Jimmy]

Yeah

D a restricted electrical license with endorsement Composite equipment, Electronics and Instrumentation/Process control. To be sure you are covered to do any repair work for customers. I can sign you logbook for you if you are competent to do the work.

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/8856/es-licensing-policy.pdf


To get an electrical contractors license you need to be an electrician.   

[David Aurora]

Cheers mate, very cool of you 

I'll get on the phone and see what I can organise. I'm in no mad rush, I've just been trying to make sure the option is there at some point

[FreeThinker]

Health and safety is not to be mocked . It is obvious that all these measures are absolutely essential  to the health and well being of fellow workers! Honest

[FreeThinker]

Or is it to prevent companies getting sued if someone gets hurt? I get confused.

[vk6zgo]

Or does it mean workers in Queensland are dumber than elsewhere?

VK6ZGO

[gregariz]

I believe is incorrect

As per the electrical safety act an engineer can work as an electrician if he works for a company that has an electrical contractors license.
 

It appears Qld has the best laws in the country related to this. Its arguable what constitutes the exemption for the practice of electrical engineering (and whether this means only chartered engineers?), but I suspect its intent is related to the mains component in the design and manufacture of equipment. As an electrical engineer one could perhaps go an do the electrical contractors license?

[vk6zgo]

I believe is incorrect

As per the electrical safety act an engineer can work as an electrician if he works for a company that has an electrical contractors license.
 

It appears Qld has the best laws in the country related to this. Its arguable what constitutes the exemption for the practice of electrical engineering (and whether this means only chartered engineers?), but I suspect its intent is related to the mains component in the design and manufacture of equipment. As an electrical engineer one could perhaps go an do the electrical contractors license?

This is the point!
In Queensland,it appears not only that you can't get a Contractor's licence without doing an Apprenticeship,& it is very difficult to get a "R" licence (which appears to be way more restrictive than the WA one),without working in a firm which has the required Electrical Contractor to supervise you.
I would suggest that most of the technical people working in Radio & TV Broadcasting in that State are nominally breaking the law.

In WA,the restriction is not so bad,but is still there.

As things are, the State authorities are intruding into an area that they basically ignored before.
It is a nasty feeling to be doing what you have done for a living most of your life,& realise that officially you are a lawbreaker.
What really rubs it in is Electrical Contractors doing Communications installations which used to be done by Technicians!

The really silly thing is,Techs & EEs who have enough knowledge to do a safe job usually have no desire to go home & re-wire their houses,(they just want to do their jobs legally),but people with no knowledge of Electrical Theory,wiring standards or the law just go ahead & do it,anyway!

VK6ZGO   

[David Aurora]

Or does it mean workers in Queensland are dumber than elsewhere?

VK6ZGO

You may be onto something there 

[Jimmy]

The really silly thing is,Techs & EEs who have enough knowledge to do a safe job usually have no desire to go home & re-wire their houses,(they just want to do their jobs legally),but people with no knowledge of Electrical Theory,wiring standards or the law just go ahead & do it,anyway!

I agree all electrical engineers should be able to do electrical work within there respective field which they can do as the law states in qld. But for all the joe public buying power points and installing them in there own house they deserve it if they burn there house down.

[David Aurora]

The really silly thing is,Techs & EEs who have enough knowledge to do a safe job usually have no desire to go home & re-wire their houses,(they just want to do their jobs legally),but people with no knowledge of Electrical Theory,wiring standards or the law just go ahead & do it,anyway!

I agree all electrical engineers should be able to do electrical work within there respective field which they can do as the law states in qld. But for all the joe public buying power points and installing them in there own house they deserve it if they burn there house down.

This is what keeps confusing me about this whole caper I'm on haha, every time I think I understand what is legal I hear something to the contrary. Are you saying that an electrical engineer (I assume with a certain level of qualification?) in Queensland, who for example makes a living designing lamps, can legally put a mains cord in a lamp they build and hook it up to a bulb inside (or connect the cord to a transformer for a low voltage bulb, either way)? No need for an electrical mechanic licence? Because this makes sense, and is the way I had assumed things would logically work. But on the phone to the licencing folk, they definitely told me the opposite of this. They said quite clearly that if you don't have an electrical mechanic licence, whether or not you're a qualified EE you aren't touching anything connecting to mains with a 10 foot pole. Although when I asked about the idea of a qualified EE prototyping a design, it was apparently OK in that scenario, but only in that scenario. Which is quite baffling.

I don't get it at all. Did I just speak to someone totally clueless on the phone? Or... hang on... is the difference in working for a company with licences vs. working for yourself? I know that has come up in this conversation, whereas my conversation with them was focussed on self employment.

[Jimmy]

I think you spoke to someone that is clueless.

Until someone can reference to me where it is not legal in Queensland than as I read it if you have a degree in electrical engineering
granted by an approved school of engineering under the Professional Engineers Act 1988; or an approved faculty of engineering under the
Professional Engineers Act 1988;  then A person is not required to hold an electrical work license for the purpose of performance or supervision of electrical work in practicing the person’s profession as an electrical engineer;

That means if as an engineer trouble shooting audio equipment and repairs it as part of his normal work then he doesn't require a license.   or maybe my English not so good