Are all breadboards equal or are there good and bad ones?

[tggzzz]

Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan)

Those methods share none of the speed, ease, and cheapness of a breadboard. If you claim you can solder up an IC faster than you can plug it and some jumpers into a breadboard, you’re lying, plain and simple.

Oooh! A classic case of cherry-picking - as you ought to realise.

Nobody wants to do only what you have described - they also want to get the circuit working, and that's where the problems lie.

are solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned?

Yes, emphatically!

As I’ve told you before: you have no clue what a true beginner is, nor the joy that comes from being able to just experiment.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. You know very little about me and my experiences, and have apparently ignored what I have mentioned in the past.

Soldering in no way provides that immediacy and desirable impermanence.

I disagree.

If a technique is perceived to be slightly slower, then it has the added benefit of encouraging people to think and understand before making a semi-random change.

The satisfaction that comes from understanding, predicting, and making something work is much greater than that of fiddling until something (appears to) work. Far too much industrial software is little more than that such ignorant twiddling, and the results are unpleasant.

Nor do I think a beginner is going to become disillusioned with electronics as easily as you think.

Robert Smith gave just such an anecdote above. I've witnessed others.

(Not to mention that you conveniently ignore that soldered circuits can also be wrong, and it’s much harder to fix.)

That depends on the construction technique; rats nest is very fast to change.

Your aggressive, myopic arrogance is quite remarkable. It just boggles the mind how you are just completely and utterly incapable (or unwilling) of seeing the value solderless breadboards have. Nobody says they’re perfect, nor suitable for every situation, but one has to be stupid and/or delusional to be incapable of seeing what they are good for.

As for me “not knowing” your background: no, I don’t know your back story. But my observations don’t require that, as your ongoing statements clearly lay bare that you do not understand the learning process.

Not to mention the frustration at the fact that you ruin every single fucking thread about breadboards with your toxic attitude.

That's a good example of "the pot calling the kettle black", or "mirror"

Others may note that I addressed your specific points, whereas you haven't addressed mine and have resorted to ad-hominem attacks. Unimpressive.

[joeqsmith]

Come to think of it, I learned on a breadboard. I should drop the elitist attitude

I suspect most of us used them as part of our classes.   Even in those early days, I can't remember the boards posing much of a problem for the analog or digital circuits we built.  Some of the projects required a few these these boards to fit it all on.   I would imagine most of my problems were a result of incorrect wiring and mistakes in the designs we were assigned.  Once you completed the task, it was quick to pull apart, save the wires, and start all over again.   Fun times.   I wonder if they are still standard practice in the beginner courses. 

[tooki]

Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan)

Those methods share none of the speed, ease, and cheapness of a breadboard. If you claim you can solder up an IC faster than you can plug it and some jumpers into a breadboard, you’re lying, plain and simple.

Oooh! A classic case of cherry-picking - as you ought to realise.

Nobody wants to do only what you have described - they also want to get the circuit working, and that's where the problems lie.

are solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned?

Yes, emphatically!

As I’ve told you before: you have no clue what a true beginner is, nor the joy that comes from being able to just experiment.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. You know very little about me and my experiences, and have apparently ignored what I have mentioned in the past.

Soldering in no way provides that immediacy and desirable impermanence.

I disagree.

If a technique is perceived to be slightly slower, then it has the added benefit of encouraging people to think and understand before making a semi-random change.

The satisfaction that comes from understanding, predicting, and making something work is much greater than that of fiddling until something (appears to) work. Far too much industrial software is little more than that such ignorant twiddling, and the results are unpleasant.

Nor do I think a beginner is going to become disillusioned with electronics as easily as you think.

Robert Smith gave just such an anecdote above. I've witnessed others.

(Not to mention that you conveniently ignore that soldered circuits can also be wrong, and it’s much harder to fix.)

That depends on the construction technique; rats nest is very fast to change.

Your aggressive, myopic arrogance is quite remarkable. It just boggles the mind how you are just completely and utterly incapable (or unwilling) of seeing the value solderless breadboards have. Nobody says they’re perfect, nor suitable for every situation, but one has to be stupid and/or delusional to be incapable of seeing what they are good for.

As for me “not knowing” your background: no, I don’t know your back story. But my observations don’t require that, as your ongoing statements clearly lay bare that you do not understand the learning process.

Not to mention the frustration at the fact that you ruin every single fucking thread about breadboards with your toxic attitude.

That's a good example of "the pot calling the kettle black", or "mirror"

Others may note that I addressed your specific points, whereas you haven't addressed mine and have resorted to ad-hominem attacks. Unimpressive.

Nope, it’s just that I have attempted point-by-point replies to you in multiple prior threads, and it was a complete waste of time. There is zero point in me taking the time to address each point again if you’re just going to remain dense on the issue. You are in a tiny minority of people claiming to have serious problems with breadboards, and you always have an “answer” for every point people explain to you, never actually listening to what people are saying. (Hence “answer” in quotes: you don’t actually address the points people make, you just have excuses for dismissing them. Or you just refuse the statement altogether and repeat your opposite viewpoint, even when it’s patently impossible, like claiming that soldering is just as fast as breadboarding, which is objectively untrue.)

Ultimately, you consistently have a bunch of people telling you to stop with the anti-breadboard crusade, and a much, much smaller number of people who agree with you. It’s just annoying, frustrating, and unproductive that you derail every single damned thread about breadboards with your alarmist, elitist, unrealistic nonsense. Why can’t you just accept that breadboards aren’t your cup of tea, but do serve a purpose for lots of people, and actually do that job well? Why do you have to piss in everyone’s Cheerios every time?

[tooki]

Come to think of it, I learned on a breadboard. I should drop the elitist attitude

I suspect most of us used them as part of our classes.   Even in those early days, I can't remember the boards posing much of a problem for the analog or digital circuits we built.  Some of the projects required a few these these boards to fit it all on.   I would imagine most of my problems were a result of incorrect wiring and mistakes in the designs we were assigned.  Once you completed the task, it was quick to pull apart, save the wires, and start all over again.   Fun times.   I wonder if they are still standard practice in the beginner courses.

I work at a vocational training center, where dozens and dozens of first and second year electronics apprentices come for hands-on classes every year. Yes, breadboards are still how it’s done.

Having them solder (and desolder) each circuit would slow things down immensely and increase costs, since soldering and desoldering (especially when done by absolute newbies) is much harder on components, so we’d have much higher parts waste.

[Gyro]

If you have that many breadboards in heavy constant use, it would be helpful to know which make / range you use (unless I already missed it!).

Edit: Ah, still Assembly Specialists?

[joeqsmith]

Come to think of it, I learned on a breadboard. I should drop the elitist attitude

I suspect most of us used them as part of our classes.   Even in those early days, I can't remember the boards posing much of a problem for the analog or digital circuits we built.  Some of the projects required a few these these boards to fit it all on.   I would imagine most of my problems were a result of incorrect wiring and mistakes in the designs we were assigned.  Once you completed the task, it was quick to pull apart, save the wires, and start all over again.   Fun times.   I wonder if they are still standard practice in the beginner courses.

I work at a vocational training center, where dozens and dozens of first and second year electronics apprentices come for hands-on classes every year. Yes, breadboards are still how it’s done.

Having them solder (and desolder) each circuit would slow things down immensely and increase costs, since soldering and desoldering (especially when done by absolute newbies) is much harder on components, so we’d have much higher parts waste.

I spoke with a friend who's much younger and confirmed their college used them as well.  Still, it's been a while since they attended.   I had a teacher who would make us use Nand gates for everything.   I couldn't imagine a student soldering up some of those circuits just to have to pull them back apart for the next assignment.   
No student wants to keep their stop light FSM or display decoder forever.   You may have more than one breadboard to cover both your analog and digital classes.

I had a teacher who loved Nand gates so we started out using 7400s and kHz clocks.  Setup and hold, termination, prop delays, what's that?  In analog classes, 1/f noise, sorry you lost me.     Imagine 50 kids all trying to construct their first DFF from Nand gates and have them working in a half hour.  Sounds simple enough.    

Nope, it’s just that I have attempted point-by-point replies to you in multiple prior threads, and it was a complete waste of time.

You may want to make use of the ignore list if you are finding a trend.  I find it helps curb my responses and makes the admins duties easier. 

[tooki]

If you have that many breadboards in heavy constant use, it would be helpful to know which make / range you use (unless I already missed it!).

Edit: Ah, still Assembly Specialists?

They’re 3M branded ones that have been in use for many, many years, long before I started working there.

[joeqsmith]

It sounds like the school loans used boards to the students for their assignments.  We had to buy our own lab supplies (from the school) like books.  I am sure more than one of my class mates, including myself, melted their breadboards.  When you're leaning the basics, expect mistakes.      

[GlennSprigg]

Just for fun, I thought I would throw in an old type of experimental board, that I 1st had when I was 10, 56 years ago... Something LIKE this...

They had coiled springs as connectors, that you push/bend to one side to trap wires & component leads under.  Some had actual components
already connected under the 'board' to them, and also had many blank ones, that virtually made a 'breadboard'.  Connections were very fast,
and securely held under constant pressure!  And probably easier than today's 'breadboard', as their was no confusion about where the under-
board 'rails' are, and you could throw 3, 4 or more component leads under 1 spring!!  Obviously these days, to use 4, 8 etc pin IC's, you would
pre-make a group of springs connected to IC sockets.   

[tggzzz]

Just for fun, I thought I would throw in an old type of experimental board, that I 1st had when I was 10, 56 years ago... Something LIKE this...

They had coiled springs as connectors, that you push/bend to one side to trap wires & component leads under.  Some had actual components
already connected under the 'board' to them, and also had many blank ones, that virtually made a 'breadboard'.  Connections were very fast,
and securely held under constant pressure!  And probably easier than today's 'breadboard', as their was no confusion about where the under-
board 'rails' are, and you could throw 3, 4 or more component leads under 1 spring!!  Obviously these days, to use 4, 8 etc pin IC's, you would
pre-make a group of springs connected to IC sockets.   

I had something very similar, a Philips EE20 set. I still have a few of the springs and clips and transistors. They All had such a low ft and the spacing was so large that parasitics wouldn'tbe an issue. I also threw out some of the horrible Mullard mustard capacitors; I didn't realise how much audiophools were willing to pay for them !

Iought to have the instruction book somewhere; if not there is a scan on the web

[amishasingh]

I generally use the long breadboard. There will be small breadboard also but as your project increase you can use it. Although the best company and quality breadboard is to be used as it is important and plays a critical role in the connections.

[tooki]

Just for fun, I thought I would throw in an old type of experimental board, that I 1st had when I was 10, 56 years ago... Something LIKE this...

They had coiled springs as connectors, that you push/bend to one side to trap wires & component leads under.  Some had actual components
already connected under the 'board' to them, and also had many blank ones, that virtually made a 'breadboard'.  Connections were very fast,
and securely held under constant pressure!  And probably easier than today's 'breadboard', as their was no confusion about where the under-
board 'rails' are, and you could throw 3, 4 or more component leads under 1 spring!!  Obviously these days, to use 4, 8 etc pin IC's, you would
pre-make a group of springs connected to IC sockets.   

They still sell those. But they’re not really a substitute for a breadboard, since breadboards exist to let you wire up any circuit, not just ones using a few predetermined components.

I don’t find those spring-contact kits to be particularly easy to use, as the inability to move components results in really messy wiring. (I had such a kit as a kid, too!) IMHO if someone can’t wrap their heads around how a breadboard’s rails work, they’re simply not suited to doing electronics.