Considering a soldering station (Hakko FX888/888D?)

[eilize]

"Hakko FX800D (€ 183/US$ 200) local online purchase"

something wrong there.
you say you take the batterfly price,

but with 25%vat + 28,80€shipping, your fx888d  'll cost 154euro
they sell it at 98euro atm
your vat is base on the 98euro, not on the full price

and if you buy something else, the shipping stay the same(good reason to buy some tip, lead and so on)

i'm not a pro hakko, i've one (i prefer pace...not the same kind of price ^^), but it's the reason, i've buy one
for the same quality you need to spend 50-100euro more

and as hobbyist, you 'll need only to buy somle tip..
you don't use it too much ,not a reason to broke it  before years

[tooki]

Sure, Amazon.de is an option as well, but I ended up with a totally different cost of € 212 from them (I went through the whole ordering process before actually paying), and that's without the taxes (25%) and import duties to be paid when I receive the package here.

OK, so I just tried it myself, choosing the address for some hotel in Oslo. I also got the €212, but it's composed of about €21 express shipping and €42 import duty (remember, that's composed primarily of VAT) deposit. This means you will NOT have to pay anything more on receipt. (That's the whole point of the AmazonGlobal program.) In fact, if the actual duty exceeds the deposit Amazon collects, they pay for it. (And if the actual duty is less than the deposit, you'll receive a refund in a month or two! I got €15 back on my Nano!!)

So your maximum price via Amazon is €212, and it may end up being less!!

[analogix]

This means you will NOT have to pay anything more on receipt.

Aha! So that's what the import duty collected by Amazon was for.
I've never ordered anything from abroad where that was included but always had to pay VAT and import duties when actually receiving the package. For some reason I could only choose express shipping, so no option there. Well, it should be a lot cheaper than buying locally in any case! Thanks for your suggestion and clearing up the confusion 

[tooki]

AmazonGlobal is one of the most awesome things ever for someone in a country with awful import fees. My example: Switzerland's VAT is very low, but the f••king Swiss Post charges anywhere from about €12-50 simply to calculate how much VAT/duty you owe!!  This makes ordering small packages punitively expensive. (Nobody knows why the charges vary seemingly arbitrarily.) AmazonGlobal means the entire customs process is already done, the parcel service or post simply delivers it, removing all uncertainty from the equation.

Not sure why Amazon can only use Express to Norway (I noticed that, too), but even with that it still ends up being a better deal than anything else.

Let me know how you like your Nano!

[tooki]

P.S. I'd recommend adding a few tips to the order while you're at it. I suggest the 3.2mm chisel, and if you do any SMD, you might want one of the PowerWell tips. (I've been considering a 5mm chisel as well, for huge joints.) I'd also suggest getting an extra tip holder (the screw on ferrule that holds the tip on) for each tip, simply because they're a pain in the ass to remove from the tips, and because having a tip holder on each tip lets you change tips while the iron is hot. If you need amazon.de URLs, let me know and I'll dig them up from my orders.

[timofonic]

I wonder if there are ERSA distributors here in Spain...

http://www.amazon.es/i-CON-Nano-Estación-de-soldadura/dp/B002MQLJ46

http://es.farnell.com/ersa/i-con-nano/estaci-n-de-soldadura-60w-eu-plug/dp/1727686
http://es.rs-online.com/web/p/estaciones-de-soldadura/6699142/
http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-rds80/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/
http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-0ic1200a/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/0ic1200a/
http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-rds80/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/
http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-i-conpico/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/i-con-pico/

I-con pico? Nano? RDS80? I got a bit confused...

[eilize]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ersa-icon-pico-vs-icon-nano!-is-esd-protection-important-soldering-station/

nano 60w no esd<-crappy one, made in china ...just buy a velleman, same quality :p(ok i exagerate  ...a litle ^^)
rds80 80w not directly esd(you   need to bind  the port to ground)
pico 80w  esd

[wraper]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ersa-icon-pico-vs-icon-nano!-is-esd-protection-important-soldering-station/

nano 60w no esd<-crappy one, made in china ...just buy a velleman, same quality :p(ok i exagerate  ...a litle ^^)
rds80 80w not directly esd(you   need to bind  the port to ground)
pico 80w  esd

Nono is ESD safe and not crappy. Pico is not ESD safe. AFAIK only Pico is made in China and BTW both of them are of the same 80W power. "Velleman of the same quality" 

[MarkM]

Just wanted to add to my other post.  I did BGA rework for 4 or so years awhile back.  I was going through those cheap hakko fx888 tips likes crazy.  It's easy to say that maybe this guy just doesn't take care of his tips, but after 4 years I'm still using the original tips that I got with the JBC(and some others).  I went through a few other stations as well and gave them away.  IMHO it's well worth the money to have proper equipment.  I hope to be using this in another 10+ years.

 

[timofonic]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ersa-icon-pico-vs-icon-nano!-is-esd-protection-important-soldering-station/

nano 60w no esd<-crappy one, made in china ...just buy a velleman, same quality :p(ok i exagerate  ...a litle ^^)
rds80 80w not directly esd(you   need to bind  the port to ground)
pico 80w  esd

Nono is ESD safe and not crappy. Pico is not ESD safe. AFAIK only Pico is made in China and BTW both of them are of the same 80W power. "Velleman of the same quality" 

So what about RDS80?

This is confusing, because Nano is specified as 60W by many distributors.

[tooki]

The RDS80 is old technology with a fat, heavy iron connected with thick, inflexible cable. I wouldn't recommend it.

Ersa lists the Nano, Pico and RDS80 all as 80W, but for the Nano and Pico, the detail page (and the bottom of the unit) lists the output power rating as 68W.

But regardless of what is, the consensus is that the i-Con Nano is the best of the three, hands down.

[nanofrog]

This is not true of the i-Con Nano; it uses only temperature drop to determine whether the iron is in use or not.

Interesting (was under the impression it was there from other sources here in the forum).

What you describe puts it more on equal footing as a WD1 using an unconnected stand. Add the connected stand, and the user gets full-on setback features.

My i-Con Nano says "Made in Germany" on it.

I knew the Nano was made in Germany (assumed the source link would solve any confusion).

To be clear, the stand included with the i-Con Nano (and many of the larger i-Con models) is rubber with a ceramic insert. Normally, the iron isn't in any contact with the rubber, as the handle is held by the ceramic insert. The hot tip would really only contact the rubber when cleaning the tip on the brass wool.

Didn't know the portion where the iron actually sits was ceramic, but the iron's element & tip appear to float in free air by design based on the photos I've seen (same with the WDH series of stands for example). I suspect the rubber used is similar to that in 2 layer ESD mats (neoprene for example), as it can take molten solder & being touched with an iron's tip for short periods without causing damage.

[tooki]

This is not true of the i-Con Nano; it uses only temperature drop to determine whether the iron is in use or not.

Interesting (was under the impression it was there from other sources here in the forum).

What you describe puts it more on equal footing as a WD1 using an unconnected stand. Add the connected stand, and the user gets full-on setback features.

Kinda. The i-Con series does not have any connected stands. The i-Con models other than Pico and Nano use an accelerometer in the handle to determine whether the iron is in use. The Pico and Nano look at the temperature stability of the tip to determine that it's idle (see page 10 of the Nano manual.)

Oh, it might be good to add that the manual is absolutely barebones; the real information is in the manual to the software used for writing configurations to a microSD card. You can download the software from the website, but I've attached the software manual below.

To be clear, the stand included with the i-Con Nano (and many of the larger i-Con models) is rubber with a ceramic insert. Normally, the iron isn't in any contact with the rubber, as the handle is held by the ceramic insert. The hot tip would really only contact the rubber when cleaning the tip on the brass wool.

Didn't know the portion where the iron actually sits was ceramic, but the iron's element & tip appear to float in free air by design based on the photos I've seen (same with the WDH series of stands for example). I suspect the rubber used is similar to that in 2 layer ESD mats (neoprene for example), as it can take molten solder & being touched with an iron's tip for short periods without causing damage.

I would assume that, too, since this stand is included with all ESD-safe i-Con models. Indeed, the tip is free-floating. (Also, the stand comes with 4 spikes to hold tips. I can post a pic if someone wants.)

Just a note, many of the pictures on the Ersa website (and in the manual) depict an all-rubber stand, but I don't think that stand ever made it into the wild. The i-Con Pico ships with a silly wire coil stand; the Nano and above ALL ship with the rubber-and-ceramic stand.

[wraper]

To be clear, the stand included with the i-Con Nano (and many of the larger i-Con models) is rubber with a ceramic insert. Normally, the iron isn't in any contact with the rubber, as the handle is held by the ceramic insert. The hot tip would really only contact the rubber when cleaning the tip on the brass wool.

Didn't know the portion where the iron actually sits was ceramic, but the iron's element & tip appear to float in free air by design based on the photos I've seen (same with the WDH series of stands for example). I suspect the rubber used is similar to that in 2 layer ESD mats (neoprene for example), as it can take molten solder & being touched with an iron's tip for short periods without causing damage.

That rubber is heat resistant. I have older version A50 holders which are completely rubber, without any ceramic inserts. They are 6 years old and nothing happened to them despite hitting the rubber with hot iron all of the time.

[nanofrog]

Kinda. The i-Con series does not have any connected stands. The i-Con models other than Pico and Nano use an accelerometer in the handle to determine whether the iron is in use. The Pico and Nano look at the temperature stability of the tip to determine that it's idle (see page 10 of the Nano manual.)

Regarding a connected stand, I was talking about those used with the Weller WD series, not Ersa (I use a WDH20T). BTW,

BTW, thanks for the Nano's manuals. 

That rubber is heat resistant. I have older version A50 holders which are completely rubber, without any ceramic inserts. They are 6 years old and nothing happened to them despite hitting the rubber with hot iron all of the time.

Good to know they really will hold up well. 

[nemrod]

No one seems to have mentioned the FX-950---the analogue version of the FX-951. It's not discontinued yet but seems to be outgoing in some places so I've seen it around significantly discounted, for only 150€ (it's normally over 300€, in a whole different price bracket than the FX-888D). I got one recently from Kretsteknik in Sweden: http://www.yourvismawebsite.com/kretsteknik-nordic-ab/shop/product/lodstation-hakko-fx950

Normally they don't deliver outside Sweden I think, but it's worth a try shooting them an e-mail asking if they can deliver it to you (I had contact with their support and they're quite accomodating), or to look around for an alternative source that's got it discounted. Definitely worth the price, only slightly more than a FX-888D.

Needless to say I'm extremely pleased, and what a joy it is with a proper analogue knob, phew. Only downside compared to the FX-888D is that the wool cleaner is an option (as is the stop&go-stand, but with the extremely fast start-up I find I can just turn it off or turn the knob down if I'm going to leave it for a minute or more), and that tips are more expensive since they're integrated with the heating element. On the plus side it's higher quality, has a smaller pen with the awesome (really, I love it) tip change system with different-coloured handles, it gets to 350C in 10-20 seconds, and of course that it's analogue.

[tooki]

What advantage does that model have over the i-Con Nano? (I mean, Nano has 9 sec heating, cheap tips, light handle...)

[MarkM]

Check the prices on the tips for the 950/951.  Yikes.  I looked at those before I bought the JBC.  They use the same tips and technology as those CSI/AOYUE 2900 IIRC.   

I've heard that the ERSA stations are pretty nice, but I really don't know about the i-can nano after looking at the specs and the price.  I have no clue why they aren't using cartridge tips.  The heat up time should tell you something about the thermal response, which after watching some videos doesn't seem to be any better than the FX888D.  I'm sure it works, but for the price? Even the more expensive ones look to have the same style tips.   

Might sound like a fanboy here, but for a few more bucks you can get a much more powerful one with quick change, long lasting tips.  The only downside to the entry level JBC is that you can't use any attachments like desoldering or tweezers without hacking.  I haven't tried. 

None of this is exaggerated in this video:







 





 

[tooki]

I've heard that the ERSA stations are pretty nice, but I really don't know about the i-can nano after looking at the specs and the price.  I have no clue why they aren't using cartridge tips.  The heat up time should tell you something about the thermal response, which after watching some videos doesn't seem to be any better than the FX888D.  I'm sure it works, but for the price? Even the more expensive ones look to have the same style tips.

I couldn't tell you which of the many "which station should I buy" threads I've seen this posted in, but people who have used both the FX888/888D and the i-Con Nano consistently say that the Ersa is far superior. For sure the Ersa can heat far faster than the FX888D, using the Ersa's default heating mode. If you want it to heat more gently (so as to prevent overshoot) you can change the setting.

[wraper]

I've heard that the ERSA stations are pretty nice, but I really don't know about the i-can nano after looking at the specs and the price.  I have no clue why they aren't using cartridge tips.   

Because they are very good even without cartridge tips and tips are cheap. You'll think twice before buying like 5 tips for JBC.

The heat up time should tell you something about the thermal response, which after watching some videos doesn't seem to be any better than the FX888D.  I'm sure it works, but for the price? Even the more expensive ones look to have the same style tips.   

Are you kidding?

[eilize]

you are a hobbyist, not a professional who do soldering 8h/24
so you don't really care about  heat up time

i want to say 80% of time a unregulated soldering tool at 15-30$  is enough
the 20% are big via, smd(you can use a heat gun and a stencil)
you can cut your tip with sandpaper (to  have a chisel form) and use some steel wool instead  of these vulgar sponge, it will yet do the job(and may last month or years)

crappy?

but realistic

so a soldering station is a gift more much   than a requirement

people who have used both the FX888/888D and the i-Con Nano consistently say that the Ersa is far superior.

i'm just curious, it's not a troll !!!
but in what?

[analogix]

AmazonGlobal is one of the most awesome things ever for someone in a country with awful import fees. My example: Switzerland's VAT is very low, but the f••king Swiss Post charges anywhere from about €12-50 simply to calculate how much VAT/duty you owe!!

Ouch!!!  Hearing that we shouldn't complain as we "only" have to pay € around 15 for them to calculate that, but only if the value of the item + shipping amounts to more than approx € 38. And of course the 25% VAT.
If the total value is less you don't have to pay any VAT or be charged the € 15 either.

Not sure why Amazon can only use Express to Norway (I noticed that, too), but even with that it still ends up being a better deal than anything else.

Let me know how you like your Nano!

True, a good deal.
I'll let you know if/when I decide to get a soldering station. After reading all the comparison the Ersa Nano seems to be the best investment for a quality "low cost" unit. I do like the Goot RX-711 with its analog control knob, digital readout and professional looks (sure beats the "toys 'r us" appearance of the Hakko FX888D) but in the end it's a tool where useability, reliability, cost (and availability) of spare parts is more important -and the Ersa Nano doesn't look half bad either. Finally it's compact and doesn't take up a whole lot of desk space, which I like.
But as this is still quite a bit of money for a hobby-investment I'd still like to hear pros/cons of a soldering station (like the Ersa Nano) vs. a quality soldering iron with temperature adjustments as I suggested earlier (my soldering so far has been through-hole parts, sockets, connectors etc. (nothing special in other words, just general old fashioned electronics), but I have no experience with SMD parts though I may eventually have to dive into that as well since that seems to become the norm for even a lot of DIY electronics).
Maybe such a soldering iron is "good enough" for my use, but it may also be "good for a short while, but after that I will need a soldering station after all", in which case I'd rather take the plunge, save my money by skipping the better soldering iron and just buy the soldering station. Confused...

As for tips: I've never really used anything apart from "sharp pencil" tips with my soldering irons -which tips should I choose for what type of work? I assume the flatter ones will conduct more heat and be better for soldering cables and big stuff while the "sharp pencil" tips might be better for delicate electronic components or electronics in general?

[GreyWoolfe]

I use mostly chisel tips.  I have sizes ranging from .8 mm to 3.2 mm.  Conical tips don't work for me, they don't seem to deliver the heat necessary.  That was with my Hakko 936, I now have much better soldering irons, Hakko FX-951 and Metcal MX 500P dual channel.  Bent conical tips seem very popular with the Metcal.  I may have to do a reevaluation and see.

[nanofrog]

As for tips: I've never really used anything apart from "sharp pencil" tips with my soldering irons -which tips should I choose for what type of work? I assume the flatter ones will conduct more heat and be better for soldering cables and big stuff while the "sharp pencil" tips might be better for delicate electronic components or electronics in general?

I'd say a few

• Chisels; say 1.6, 2.4, and 3.2mm to start, though they offer a lot more should you need them (these will handle most work). Check to see if a tip is included with the station (some brands do, some don't).
• Bent conical (good for tacking corners and bodge wires, pulling out bridges from drag soldering, and even soldering passives)
• Drag soldering tip (different names, but Ersa just uses the letter W). You can also substitute a hoof or knife if you don't have one, or even use a chisel (need a little extra skill to master).

You can do a lot with this little selection IMHO, and it helps keep the price down to get started.

Plenty of other profiles of course, and they all have their place. Download a copy of Ersa's iTip catalog and see for yourself.  Also, Hakko's Tip Page (i.e. by shape or operation) can help illustrate what the different profiles can be used for.

[MarkM]

@wraper  I wasn't kidding about that.   Anyways, I must have looked at the wrong place.  I see the i-can nano is around half the price of the JBC.  Scratch what I said earlier.  The first place I saw one it was like $350, which would be rough.  I thought this one was around the same price as the JBC.  I could see $250 or so.  I paid something like $450 for the JBC, but I was using it for work.