Car parking heater but... with BATTERIES? :phew:

[Alti]

Soon I will need to start scraping ice and removing snow every morning...

How about a car cover? I am not sure how much time it takes to put that on/off but with some rubber bands/velcro/ magnets and handles it should not be too hard. Then you can put it into some big watertight bag and keep it in a trunk.

[Rick Law]

...
...

Liquified dinosaurs are still damn cheap compared to electricity if you have to use batteries as a storage!

True... I might need to decide on a chinese webasto clone then...

SLA may not be a bad option.

I use a "jumper-helper" which basically is an SLA packaged for portability equipped with a wall charger and jumper clamp.   As it is made for portability, you can easily carry it into the office/house for recharge.  Jumper-helper is around $100-$200 USD here depending on capacity and CCA.  I can see (not tried, no actual experience) running a 200Watt heater off the build-in cigarette lighter plug of the jumper-helper.  Since it has jumper-cable build-in, you can tap that and run at much higher wattage.

With that, you also have the added "peace of mind" that if your main car battery is having trouble, you have an extra helping hand at the ready.

By the way...  In the USA, because of the popularity of the so called "tail gate party", parts for adding an extra battery (wired into your car's wiring and trunk-based mouting) is/was easily available.  (Tail gate party is during a ball games, people gathering around the back of the SUV and have a beer party.)   I'm not sure about your local market, may be that is also an option for power?

[Monkeh]

Have you considered a garage or a carport?

[krebacz]

I live in Poland and have Eberspacher system in my Skoda Superb (medium size sedan). It uses diesel (0.75/h) from the main car tank and around 100W (glow plug, fan and water pump) from car battery.
With -10oC outside and 1-2 cm snow on the car it needs 45 mins for full defrost, 15+ degrees inside.
The fuel loss is more than recuperated as the engine starts warm.

I paid some 1.7kEUR for the kit plus fitting.

I think this is the best way to go - always ready, powerful enough (5kW). The main disadvantage is the load on battery - I've had to replace mine after 4 years.

[mzzj]

SLA may not be a bad option.

I use a "jumper-helper" which basically is an SLA packaged for portability equipped with a wall charger and jumper clamp.   As it is made for portability, you can easily carry it into the office/house for recharge.  Jumper-helper is around $100-$200 USD here depending on capacity and CCA.  I can see (not tried, no actual experience) running a 200Watt heater off the build-in cigarette lighter plug of the jumper-helper.  Since it has jumper-cable build-in, you can tap that and run at much higher wattage.

With that, you also have the added "peace of mind" that if your main car battery is having trouble, you have an extra helping hand at the ready.

By the way...  In the USA, because of the popularity of the so called "tail gate party", parts for adding an extra battery (wired into your car's wiring and trunk-based mouting) is/was easily available.  (Tail gate party is during a ball games, people gathering around the back of the SUV and have a beer party.)   I'm not sure about your local market, may be that is also an option for power?

2kWh needed = You are looking at something like 12v 400Ah battery if you want that the lead acid doesn't die from full discharge
At least you wont feel cold even if the batteries are empty if you lug around 90kg /200lbs SLA bank every morning and evening

[Rick Law]

SLA may not be a bad option.

I use a "jumper-helper" which basically is an SLA packaged for portability equipped with a wall charger and jumper clamp.   As it is made for portability, you can easily carry it into the office/house for recharge.  Jumper-helper is around $100-$200 USD here depending on capacity and CCA.  I can see (not tried, no actual experience) running a 200Watt heater off the build-in cigarette lighter plug of the jumper-helper.  Since it has jumper-cable build-in, you can tap that and run at much higher wattage.

With that, you also have the added "peace of mind" that if your main car battery is having trouble, you have an extra helping hand at the ready.

By the way...  In the USA, because of the popularity of the so called "tail gate party", parts for adding an extra battery (wired into your car's wiring and trunk-based mouting) is/was easily available.  (Tail gate party is during a ball games, people gathering around the back of the SUV and have a beer party.)   I'm not sure about your local market, may be that is also an option for power?

2kWh needed = You are looking at something like 12v 400Ah battery if you want that the lead acid doesn't die from full discharge
At least you wont feel cold even if the batteries are empty if you lug around 90kg /200lbs SLA bank every morning and evening

Oops - I didn't do the math...   I am off by more than a factor of 10.

[Erwin Ried]

I live in Poland and have Eberspacher system in my Skoda Superb (medium size sedan). It uses diesel (0.75/h) from the main car tank and around 100W (glow plug, fan and water pump) from car battery.
With -10oC outside and 1-2 cm snow on the car it needs 45 mins for full defrost, 15+ degrees inside.
The fuel loss is more than recuperated as the engine starts warm.

I paid some 1.7kEUR for the kit plus fitting.

I think this is the best way to go - always ready, powerful enough (5kW). The main disadvantage is the load on battery - I've had to replace mine after 4 years.

That is a very nice price, does it also control the internal fan and blower settings (like defroster direction of the air?). I might need to go shopping it to poland and ask a mechanic to show me an installation. But I need gasoline version, which I think only webasto makes

[Erwin Ried]

Have you considered a garage or a carport?

Not an option, I park far away in the street.

[Erwin Ried]

2kWh needed = You are looking at something like 12v 400Ah battery if you want that the lead acid doesn't die from full discharge
At least you wont feel cold even if the batteries are empty if you lug around 90kg /200lbs SLA bank every morning and evening

Why 2kWh?  I think it is different to have the heater unit outside. Now I am thinking on:

400W 48V heater: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001407973844.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.147292b896L39x&algo_pvid=6dc8d137-7f99-479f-b77a-d0e866eaa110&algo_expid=6dc8d137-7f99-479f-b77a-d0e866eaa110-0&btsid=0bb0600116035440530992119e480d&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

13s6p 48V 20Ah battery: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001082734194.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.35942438Zrfod8&algo_pvid=58c7b366-6082-4ae3-b90f-19c7adbece0f&algo_expid=58c7b366-6082-4ae3-b90f-19c7adbece0f-2&btsid=0bb0623b16037483277492842ecb4d&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

[Monkeh]

Eberspächer do indeed offer petrol systems.

[Per Hansson]

2kWh needed = You are looking at something like 12v 400Ah battery if you want that the lead acid doesn't die from full discharge
At least you wont feel cold even if the batteries are empty if you lug around 90kg /200lbs SLA bank every morning and evening

Why 2kWh?  I think it is different to have the heater unit outside. Now I am thinking on:

400W 48V heater: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001407973844.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.147292b896L39x&algo_pvid=6dc8d137-7f99-479f-b77a-d0e866eaa110&algo_expid=6dc8d137-7f99-479f-b77a-d0e866eaa110-0&btsid=0bb0600116035440530992119e480d&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

13s6p 48V 20Ah battery: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001082734194.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.35942438Zrfod8&algo_pvid=58c7b366-6082-4ae3-b90f-19c7adbece0f&algo_expid=58c7b366-6082-4ae3-b90f-19c7adbece0f-2&btsid=0bb0623b16037483277492842ecb4d&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

I have used a 1kW 230v electric fan heater in previous cars, as other stated it takes around an hour at -10C to get decent heat, at -20C expect 2 hours.
Secondly please understand that ALL batteries sold on Ali Express et all are pure crap, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt:
They first state 200000mAh which is 200Ah, but then they also state 20Ah, I calculate a best case 15Ah if they used good 18650 2.5Ah cells, but we all know they don't.
So where does the 20Ah number they state come from? Well they state they use 18650 with a 3.4Ah capacity!
Please see this battery test linked below for example.
It is especially interesting because he tests the batteries at -15C also, and the good ones are really impressive!
The China fake capacity batteries do not even work at all at a high load, and add minus degrees to that, yea, I think you can imagine the result...
To be able to provide 50A continuous as this seller claims the individual cells must be able to provide 8A.
In the Youtube video none of the China branded batteries with grossly overstated capacities where able to do that even at room temperature!

[mzzj]

2kWh needed = You are looking at something like 12v 400Ah battery if you want that the lead acid doesn't die from full discharge
At least you wont feel cold even if the batteries are empty if you lug around 90kg /200lbs SLA bank every morning and evening

Why 2kWh?  I think it is different to have the heater unit outside. Now I am thinking on:

400W 48V heater: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001407973844.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.147292b896L39x&algo_pvid=6dc8d137-7f99-479f-b77a-d0e866eaa110&algo_expid=6dc8d137-7f99-479f-b77a-d0e866eaa110-0&btsid=0bb0600116035440530992119e480d&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

13s6p 48V 20Ah battery: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001082734194.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.35942438Zrfod8&algo_pvid=58c7b366-6082-4ae3-b90f-19c7adbece0f&algo_expid=58c7b366-6082-4ae3-b90f-19c7adbece0f-2&btsid=0bb0623b16037483277492842ecb4d&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

Why 2kWh?
Because I have been born and living here in the damn freezing north for last 40 years and based on my experience from electric car indoor heaters (Defa/Calix)  that's what it takes to melt the car somewhat.. 

(Defa/Calix system is usually installed with both 900...2000W indoor heater and 500...1500W engine block heater)

"Liitokala" batteries from Aliexpress are bit better than outright scam: In my experience close to claimed capacity but really suspect cells (unknown chinese manufacturer or used, recycled cells from unknown origin) 

[mzzj]

Sensible options are either the 800 euros webasto kit from Germany or installing 230V outlet to your parking place. If living in apartment forget about installing the outlet to parking place.
(40 meter extension cords hidden under snow and ice are frowned upon.) 

2x 48v 20Ah batter backs or 100 Eur webasto copy with external 4l diesel tank  might heat your car flaming hot.

"Chinese webasto" with small diesel tank would be easy option for something that you can keep on eye.

[james_s]

Is there an option of obtaining a used heater from a wrecked car and installing it? Here we still have salvage yards where you can go poke around in cars and pull parts. The prices vary but overall a lot of stuff is quite affordable. I've never seen one of those parking heaters in this country but it's the sort of thing that would probably be $50 or less and a u-pull yard.

[mzzj]

Is there an option of obtaining a used heater from a wrecked car and installing it? Here we still have salvage yards where you can go poke around in cars and pull parts. The prices vary but overall a lot of stuff is quite affordable. I've never seen one of those parking heaters in this country but it's the sort of thing that would probably be $50 or less and a u-pull yard.

There is quite a bit of hoses, wiring and relays sprinkled around the car for the installation, pulling it all out DIY sucks.

But ebay.de for example has used ones. Installation is quite hassle even with 100% brand new unit so unless you are really adventurous and want to become Webasto service specialist  I wouldn't recommend starting from used unit.

[Erwin Ried]

Is there an option of obtaining a used heater from a wrecked car and installing it? Here we still have salvage yards where you can go poke around in cars and pull parts. The prices vary but overall a lot of stuff is quite affordable. I've never seen one of those parking heaters in this country but it's the sort of thing that would probably be $50 or less and a u-pull yard.

There is quite a bit of hoses, wiring and relays sprinkled around the car for the installation, pulling it all out DIY sucks.

But ebay.de for example has used ones. Installation is quite hassle even with 100% brand new unit so unless you are really adventurous and want to become Webasto service specialist  I wouldn't recommend starting from used unit.

I agree with used one is not an option. There is too little information about everything related with this and having more unknowns is not good.

The 200 USD chinese heater or 800 EUR webasto are perfectly fine options, I dont mind spending an afternoon fitting them, but there is not much information on how to do this on gasoline cars.

[Renate]

Just to add a Nordic (but not Norwegian) spin to this.

I previously said that my 60 kg of batteries could deliver 2.7 kWH (theoretically and using 100% discharge).
A more reasonable usage would be 50% discharge and 1.35 kWH.

A package of Wasa Sourdough knäckebröd delivers 690 kilocalories or 0.8 kWH
Two packages would exceed the energy available from my 60 kg of batteries.
There would be a weight savings of 99% = 1 - 2 * 300 g / 60 kg

[sandalcandal]

Not trying to tell you what to do but be aware Li-ion Batteries + Heat Source = Big Danger

At around 80°C cell materials will start to decompose and release heat, some cells especially under high ambient temperature conditions can go into thermal runaway at this point. At around 120°C most cells start going into thermal runaway under typical conditions. At 150°C "separator shutdown" occurs and if the battery hasn't already it will go nuclear.
Lei, B.; Zhao, W.; Ziebert, C.; Uhlmann, N.; Rohde, M.; Seifert, H.J. Experimental Analysis of Thermal Runaway in 18650 Cylindrical Li-Ion Cells Using an Accelerating Rate Calorimeter. Batteries 2017, 3, 14. (paper on thermal runaway onset temperatures)

Not to say this project can't be safely done but please be aware of the hazards and take precautions to protect the battery from heat exposure. I'd advise against sitting the batteries anywhere close to the heater and be sure to have tested and verified thermal cut-offs on the BMS work since the risk of over heating here is unusually high.

Edit: also consider using a battery chemistry less prone to explosion

[Erwin Ried]

A package of Wasa Sourdough knäckebröd

 

so.. you suggest using knekkebrød as fuel for my heater? I like husman, but maybe havre heats better.

[Galenbo]

You can choose to look for a Webasto/Eberspacher on the scrapyard.
You will pay 100 to 300 euro for a complete system, and 100 euro for some parts to make it new.

Most old Vito 112CDI have it.

[Cerebus]

Not trying to tell you what to do but be aware Li-ion Batteries + Heat Source = Big Danger

Well you'd be crazy to drive around in a vehicle containing at least 475 kWh (1.7 GJ) of energy in the form of a highly volatile, potentially explosive, highly inflammable material, but I do it every time the rather small 50 litre fuel tank in my petrol car is full. What's worse is that it's engineered to deliberately produce a series of mini explosions as the form of propulsion.

One has to get the risks into perspective. The energy density of petrol is high (34.2 MJ/l), vehicles contain a lot of it and it is clearly more dangerous than any battery system but we somehow treat this with sanguity. I think the biggest concern, first and foremost, in adding any electrical heating system to a car is avoiding accidental ignition of the vehicle's liquid fuel but this never gets mentioned.

You never see anybody saying, a priori: "Petrol + Heat Source = Big Danger". Whereas there's always someone who's going to ignore that and just state (frequently overstate) the risks of adding a few megajoules of battery storage to something that already has gigajoules of stored energy on board (or of substituting Lithium energy chemistry for hydrocarbon energy chemistry in the EV case where electricity is the prime mover). Both are dangerous if not used properly, but surely gigajoules outranks megajoules in absolute risk terms. Sure, it would be foolish to ignore the known risks of any battery technology, but let's keep things in perspective - a Lithium battery isn't a bomb waiting to go off any more than a car full of petrol already is.

[mzzj]

so.. you suggest using knekkebrød as fuel for my heater? I like husman, but maybe havre heats better.

knekkebrød with a shoe polish topping was exellent tent stove fuel in Finnish Army when temperature dropped to -40 and firewood was damp   
And army truck "preheaters": keep the trucks running for the whole 2 week arctic exercise.

Norwegian twist would be using rancid cod oil... now you can replace that 100kg lead-acid battery with 0.2l can of fish oil 

[Cerebus]

Just to add a Nordic (but not Norwegian) spin to this.

I previously said that my 60 kg of batteries could deliver 2.7 kWH (theoretically and using 100% discharge).
A more reasonable usage would be 50% discharge and 1.35 kWH.

A package of Wasa Sourdough knäckebröd delivers 690 kilocalories or 0.8 kWH
Two packages would exceed the energy available from my 60 kg of batteries.
There would be a weight savings of 99% = 1 - 2 * 300 g / 60 kg

All you need is an efficient, safe, lightweight method of converting that potential energy of the knäckebröd into heat. History would seem to teach that the classical way of doing this would be to package a small boy with some machine that requires them to do strenuous work. Perhaps an exercise bike packaged such that it, and the small boy, could be placed across the rear seat of the vehicle. This has the advantage that the small boy could also be equipped with a scrapper and squeegee to complete the clearing of the car after the required amount of heat had been generated.  Biological solutions are often more intrinsically satisfying and simple than purely technological ones.

[mzzj]

One has to get the risks into perspective. The energy density of petrol is high (34.2 MJ/l), vehicles contain a lot of it and it is clearly more dangerous than any battery system but we somehow treat this with sanguity. I think the biggest concern, first and foremost, in adding any electrical heating system to a car is avoiding accidental ignition of the vehicle's liquid fuel but this never gets mentioned.

You never see anybody saying, a priori: "Petrol + Heat Source = Big Danger". Whereas there's always someone who's going to ignore that and just state (frequently overstate) the risks of adding a few megajoules of battery storage to something that already has gigajoules of stored energy on board (or of substituting Lithium energy chemistry for hydrocarbon energy chemistry in the EV case where electricity is the prime mover). Both are dangerous if not used properly, but surely gigajoules outranks megajoules in absolute risk terms. Sure, it would be foolish to ignore the known risks of any battery technology, but let's keep things in perspective - a Lithium battery isn't a bomb waiting to go off any more than a car full of petrol already is.

Problem with li-batteries is that they are self-contained system not needing oxygen to burn (and sometimes not even a source of ignition)
You can whack 4" nail to gasoline tank and nothing happens. With lithium battery bank the results are lot more spectacular...

li-batteries are self-contained energy source like explosives. Difference in energy density between Li-ion and TNT is actually suprisingly small: TNT 4.6MJ/kg, Li-ion 1.1MJ/kg

[Cerebus]

One has to get the risks into perspective. The energy density of petrol is high (34.2 MJ/l), vehicles contain a lot of it and it is clearly more dangerous than any battery system but we somehow treat this with sanguity. I think the biggest concern, first and foremost, in adding any electrical heating system to a car is avoiding accidental ignition of the vehicle's liquid fuel but this never gets mentioned.

You never see anybody saying, a priori: "Petrol + Heat Source = Big Danger". Whereas there's always someone who's going to ignore that and just state (frequently overstate) the risks of adding a few megajoules of battery storage to something that already has gigajoules of stored energy on board (or of substituting Lithium energy chemistry for hydrocarbon energy chemistry in the EV case where electricity is the prime mover). Both are dangerous if not used properly, but surely gigajoules outranks megajoules in absolute risk terms. Sure, it would be foolish to ignore the known risks of any battery technology, but let's keep things in perspective - a Lithium battery isn't a bomb waiting to go off any more than a car full of petrol already is.

Problem with li-batteries is that they are self-contained system not needing oxygen to burn (and sometimes not even a source of ignition)
You can whack 4" nail to gasoline tank and nothing happens. With lithium battery bank the results are lot more spectacular...

li-batteries are self-contained energy source like explosives. Difference in energy density between Li-ion and TNT is actually suprisingly small: TNT 4.6MJ/kg, Li-ion 1.1MJ/kg

All true. It's just that at least once in every conversation on here about Li chemistry batteries and vehicles there's someone goes all Cassandra* about it while ignoring the gigajoule elephant in the room.

^*Cassandra's prophecies weren't wrong, it's just that she's infamous for spending a lot of time running around crying "woe, woe" to anybody who would listen, and to quite a lot of people who were fed up with hearing it.