Author Topic: (Nevermind) Is there any simple arrangement that simulates a HexFET  (Read 1900 times)

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Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Since HexFets are quite hard to come by apart for shady stock on ebay, Is there some simple arragement which simulates the load charectaristics of hex fets with conventional BJT's/Fets?
I want to mess with those linear thingies in audio amp designs.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 01:47:34 am by ELS122 »
 

Offline Benta

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Nothing special about HexFETs, it's just a marketing name for normal planar MOSFETs. Are you thinking about something else, like VFETs?
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Nothing special about HexFETs, it's just a marketing name for normal planar MOSFETs. Are you thinking about something else, like VFETs?

Well the load line charecaristic curve is much more linear than other FETs...

The HEXFet (IRF540A)


a regular MOSFET (IXFA26N65X2)

I couldnt find a closer comparison, but you see they're fundamentally a different shape, while the mosfet load characteristic lines are similar to any BJT or any other FET. While the HEXFet starts off very linear until it goes into the higher voltages and flattens off there.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 10:32:51 pm by ELS122 »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Did you notice the log-log axes...

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Did you notice the log-log axes...

Tim

Yes but regardless, it's much more linear, look how parallel are the lines form 1V to 10V for the hexfet, then compare to how not parallel they are for the mosfet from 1v to 10v Or in any voltage range since it's a lower Vgs rated fet
 

Online Zero999

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Are you sure you're not talking about (LDMOS) (Laterally Diffused) power MOSFETs? I've not seen the audio variety for years. Modern LTMOS are used for RF.

HEXFET is a trademark of International Rectifier now Infineon Technologies.
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Are you sure you're not talking about (LDMOS) (Laterally Diffused) power MOSFETs? I've not seen the audio variety for years. Modern LTMOS are used for RF.

HEXFET is a trademark of International Rectifier now Infineon Technologies.

Well an audio amplifier that used IRF540A's was described as "using HEXFets for the output"
In Datasheets they're described like this:
Motorola: TMOS E-FET
International Rectifier: HEXFET
Phillips: TrenchMOS
 

Offline Benta

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I still think the log-log point wasn't fully appreciated.
 
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Offline Benta

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Well an audio amplifier that used IRF540A's was described as "using HEXFets for the output"
In Datasheets they're described like this:
Motorola: TMOS E-FET
International Rectifier: HEXFET
Phillips: TrenchMOS
All companies that no longer exist in the semiconductor world.
TMOS: standard planar MOSFET
HEXFET; standard planar MOSFET.
TrenchMOS: standad planar MOSFET.
All just marketing names.
 

Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Sorry, you're right. It's amazing how a different scale graph can distort the picture.

https://alltransistors.com/adv/pdfdatasheet_motorola/irf540_mot.pdf On page 3 there's a linear scale chart
https://alltransistors.com/adv/pdfdatasheet_international_rectifier/irf540pbf.pdf On page 3 is the log scale chart
 
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Online wraper

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Did you notice the log-log axes...

Tim

Yes but regardless, it's much more linear, look how parallel are the lines form 1V to 10V for the hexfet, then compare to how not parallel they are for the mosfet from 1v to 10v Or in any voltage range since it's a lower Vgs rated fet
Those are graphs totally not comparable visually.
Here you go IRF540 from Vishay with no fancy trademark names https://www.vishay.com/docs/91021/irf540.pdf
 

Online BrianHG

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For audio, careful about the HexFETs, or any low voltage VGS logic level mosfets.  They are designed to switch, not operate in the linear region as the sharp low voltage turn-on, beginning at around 2.5v, doesn't evenly turn on all of the silicon mosfet die structure at the same time, hence the Safe Operating Area / SOA is actually worse than older mosfet with a higher voltage VGS as the larger slowly switch on voltage of the mosfet's cells mostly begin to conduct more evenly throughout the entire silicon die.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 12:37:35 am by BrianHG »
 
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Online T3sl4co1l

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For audio, careful about the HexFETs, or any low voltage VGS logic level mosfets.  They are designed to switch, not operate in the linear region as the sharp low voltage turn-on, beginning at around 2.5v, doesn't evenly turn on all of the silicon mosfet die structure at the same time, hence the Safe Operating Area / SOA is actually worse than older mosfet with a higher voltage VGS as the larger slowly switch on voltage of the mosfet's cells mostly begin to conduct more evenly throughout the entire silicon die.

Doesn't matter, the SOA is what it says it is.

I've tested IRF740PbF for example, at voltage, and found it free from 2nd breakdown at DC.  Most datasheets unfortunately do not show DC SOA (though older datasheets may have had them).  I wouldn't suggest using them if you need design guarantees, but I would recommend testing them for DC SOA at your required operating conditions if you are willing to do a qualification test / process.

Shockingly, modern (SuperJunction) types often have full (DC) SOA, despite higher power density than ever; I don't know what it is that actually makes it work, but I'm not complaining.

Note that many also do have 2nd breakdown, sometimes quite severe (I ~ 1/V^2 or worse).  There's no generalization, just look at the datasheet and see what it says.  If it doesn't have the SOA you need (time or power), keep shopping.  Simple as that.

I've also seen some people harp on about "Spirito effect", with a partially-formed argument based on gm tempco -- but transistors don't automatically fail from positive tempco.  There's more to it than that.  And the only way to show that, is to plot the SOA proper.

Tim
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Offline ELS122Topic starter

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Nothing special about HexFETs, it's just a marketing name for normal planar MOSFETs. Are you thinking about something else, like VFETs?

Well you did interest me :D
Is there a way to simulate VFET's in a circuit? Their prices are up there...
 

Online Zero999

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Are you sure you're not talking about (LDMOS) (Laterally Diffused) power MOSFETs? I've not seen the audio variety for years. Modern LTMOS are used for RF.

HEXFET is a trademark of International Rectifier now Infineon Technologies.

Well an audio amplifier that used IRF540A's was described as "using HEXFets for the output"
In Datasheets they're described like this:
Motorola: TMOS E-FET
International Rectifier: HEXFET
Phillips: TrenchMOS
Note many parts which are obsolete are still available in the PBF versions, which simply means lead free.
https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/IRF540PBF?qs=%2FRKvNCQzLu3BWqXFNIPTkQ%3D%3D&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7KO6itPggAMVzO7tCh1q7welEAAYASAAEgKHVvD_BwE
Nothing special about HexFETs, it's just a marketing name for normal planar MOSFETs. Are you thinking about something else, like VFETs?

Well you did interest me :D
Is there a way to simulate VFET's in a circuit? Their prices are up there...
https://polonai.se/scrapbook/ta-4650/index.html

 
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Online wraper

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Shockingly, modern (SuperJunction) types often have full (DC) SOA, despite higher power density than ever; I don't know what it is that actually makes it work, but I'm not complaining.
Without any info I would guess improved stability of the process or maybe that vertically stacked junctions have much better heat exchange between them than horizontally arranged structures and randomization during production of multiple vertical layers makes the die more uniform horizontally. After all the issue with operation in linear region is that those tiny MOSFETs the die consists of are not made exactly equal due to the process variation and conduct/heat differently in linear region.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 02:59:16 pm by wraper »
 

Offline CaptDon

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Re: (Nevermind) Is there any simple arrangement that simulates a HexFET
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2023, 01:56:24 pm »
How is it the HEXFET curves start at apparently negative 10 volts?  10 to the minus 1, through 10 to the null, then upwards through the positive voltages (10 to the 1st power etc.) Are those perpendicular lines the body diode curves? I am unfamiliar with curves in the negative voltage region for an N-Channel FET. I usually only see Tr speed specs and one representative diode voltage at some fixed current level.
Collector and repairer of vintage and not so vintage electronic gadgets and test equipment. What's the difference between a pizza and a musician? A pizza can feed a family of four!! Classically trained guitarist. Sound engineer.
 

Online magic

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I couldnt find a closer comparison, but you see they're fundamentally a different shape, while the mosfet load characteristic lines are similar to any BJT or any other FET. While the HEXFet starts off very linear until it goes into the higher voltages and flattens off there.
I think you can reproduce this kind of curve with a power BJT plus a resistor in series with the collector.

The "linear" segments are RDS(on). For amplifier output stages it means that as the drain gets close to the source, there is a point where drain current almost stops increasing with gate voltage and that this point is proportional to drain current. The amplifier clips before touching the rail and the more it is loaded, the sooner it clips.

This is so-called
linear region
which is normally used for switching and rarely by linear circuits, which prefer to operate in the "flat" channel saturation region, where drain current is effectively controlled by gate voltage.

How is it the HEXFET curves start at apparently negative 10 volts?  10 to the minus 1, through 10 to the null, then upwards through the positive voltages (10 to the 1st power etc.) Are those perpendicular lines the body diode curves?
10-1 is simply 0.1.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 02:59:59 pm by magic »
 

Offline Benta

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Nothing special about HexFETs, it's just a marketing name for normal planar MOSFETs. Are you thinking about something else, like VFETs?

Well you did interest me :D
Is there a way to simulate VFET's in a circuit? Their prices are up there...
The VFET (aka SIT) prices are up there because they're made from unobtanium. They haven't been produced since 40 years, and practically all NOS has been claimed fully by HiFi enthusiasts.
Only Sony and Yamaha produced VFETs, mainly for their own use or subsequent repairs.

 

Offline Terry Bites

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Re: (Nevermind) Is there any simple arrangement that simulates a HexFET
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2023, 07:56:37 am »
Slap a massive cap in the gate.... oh yeah, big 'ol HEXERIE!
 


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