Amazon EEEEE store - is it any good?

[wraper]

Good news! I did one test so far and now we have some harder numbers to go on. (not much data yet, but it is something).

I ran the IRFZ44N with a resistive load. The circuit drew 32.8 mA with a voltage drop of 1.3 mV across the Drain and Source. I ran the test at about 5V.
The resistance can be calculated from this using Ohms Law and comes out to be about 40 mOhms.

The specifications listed on the IRFZ44N datasheet specify 22 mOhms Drain-Source resistance
https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/17807/PHILIPS/IRFZ44N.html

What manufacturer? IRFZ44N From Infenion/International rectifier has 17.5 mΩ max at 10V V_GS (typical is lower than that even for NXP part) https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IRFZ44N-DataSheet-v01_01-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a40153563b3a9f220d Another thing is that they may sell a part with lower V_DS which automatically makes R_DS go down for the price. I'd at least measure gate capacitance to see if it's anywhere close to the real part. 40 mOhms at 5V V_GS likely means fake with a very small die but made on a more modern process (poor SOA in linear region), I would expect more resistance from a genuine part at 5V V_GS. Also you use multimeter with insufficient resolution, and as they round to the low side (unless there is a positive offset) it easily can be anywhere in 0.2-0.3 mV region. Not that you should ever trust the last digit to begin with. As your meter should have tolerance spec something like 1% + 3 least significant digits (although it's garbage enough they don't mention digit tolerance spec at all https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0268/7746/0673/files/01DMMAS830.pdf?v=1625849553  EDIT: Mastech that actually makes it has it https://mastech-group.com/as/en/MAS830B ±(0.5%+3)). You need either more current or a better meter to measure this.

[SanctePieDecime]

What manufacturer? IRFZ44N From Infenion/International rectifier has 17.5 mΩ max at 10V (typical is lower than that even for NXP part) V_GS https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IRFZ44N-DataSheet-v01_01-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a40153563b3a9f220d Another thing is that they may sell a part with lower V_DS which automatically makes R_DS go down for the price. I'd at least measure gate capacitance to see if it's anywhere close to the real part. 40 mOhms at 5V V_GS likely means fake with a very small die but made on a more modern process (poor SOA in linear region), I would expect more resistance from a genuine part at 5V V_GS. Also you use multimeter with insufficient resolution, and as they round to the low side (unless there is a positive offset) it easily can be anywhere in 0.2-0.3 mV region. Not that you should ever trust the last digit to begin with. As your meter should have tolerance spec something like 1% + 3 least significant digits (although it's garbage enough they don't mention digit tolerance spec at all https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0268/7746/0673/files/01DMMAS830.pdf?v=1625849553  EDIT: Mastech that actually makes it has it https://mastech-group.com/as/en/MAS830B ±(0.5%+3)). You need either more current or a better meter to measure this.

Agreed, I need a better measurement. I tried again running 169.6 mA through it and got 4 mV across the Drain-Source. The math comes out to be just over 23 Ohms

Now here is the caveat to all of my measurements. Yes, I don't have the greatest test equipment. The multimeter that you were picking on was not one that I chose, but one that was given to me.
That also means: no I do not have a power supply that can handle the current ratings that the IRFZ44N can handle. Nor do I have an LCR meter. This is all to say that I am limited in what testing I can do.

This also means that I cannot match the test criteria put forth in Infeneon's datasheet exactly: I_D = 25A, Pulse width ≤ 400µs, duty cycle ≤ 2%. This means any measurements I took must be taken with a grain of salt because they may be worse, or may be better.

So the part could be out of spec or it could be within spec according to my measurements, all I can tell from my measurements so far is that if the IRFZ44N that I bought is out of spec at all, it is not hugely out of spec (as insinuated) at least as regards R_DS

So I am pretty much at the limit of my testing when it comes to V_DS I_D or R_DS. If someone else with better-suited test equipment wants to give it a shot go for it, but I doubt anyone has the guts to because it means biting the bullet and buying the components, around which there has been so much insistence that they are fake.

Let me put it this way:
Wraper, so far all I have heard from you (and most other people so far) about this company is slander: absolutely no personal experience with this company and yet somehow a self-declared expert. Instead of trying to tear down a company that this is probably the first you have heard of, just for superficial reasons (selling on Amazon, the pictures they use, etc) and with absolutely no hard facts of your own (and even worse: asserting your pre-conceived opinion as fact), consider getting your own data.

There is a saying that "if you cannot say anything nice do not say anything at all". Well, while I do not think that is always a rule to go by, here is something that one should always go by: "if you can't say something that you know for a fact, then don't present anything as fact".

Yes: the fact is there are tons of fraudulent Amazon companies. I agree with that fact. And maybe the EEEEE store is one of them; I am by no means saying that the EEEEE store is honestly selling components up to spec. All I am trying to do is make sure the information shared is objective fact and not some random person's pre-conceived opinion.

In response to:

...and due to people like you it's hard to buy some obscure, obsolete, or just discounted NOS components without being duped...

Perhaps it could be said that it is because of people like you that any honest electronics shop on Amazon does not survive.

[madires]

When I compare the store images of the alleged International Rectifier MOSFETs and the ones I have in stock (bought from a reputable distributor) I can easily spot a difference. BTW, many small sellers from China don't know much about the products they sell, i.e. it's a side job of some student or housewife to make some extra bucks. There's a good chance that they just resell parts from some larger reseller without knowing that they got counterfeits.

[wraper]

When I compare the store images of the alleged International Rectifier MOSFETs and the ones I have in stock (bought from a reputable distributor) I can easily spot a difference. BTW, many small sellers from China don't know much about the products they sell, i.e. it's a side job of some student or housewife to make some extra bucks. There's a good chance that they just resell parts from some larger reseller without knowing that they got counterfeits.

AFAIK many don't have anything in stock and when an order comes in get the cheapest garbage they can find on Huaqiangbei on that day.

[wraper]

Let me put it this way:
Wraper, so far all I have heard from you (and most other people so far) about this company is slander: absolutely no personal experience with this company and yet somehow a self-declared expert. Instead of trying to tear down a company that this is probably the first you have heard of, just for superficial reasons (selling on Amazon, the pictures they use, etc) and with absolutely no hard facts of your own (and even worse: asserting your pre-conceived opinion as fact), consider getting your own data.

They put photos with all blatant counterfeit parts on them themselves. The only parts on photos that cannot be called outright counterfeits are parts without a manufacturer logo. I have no reason to believe they'll ship anything better than what's on their photos. If you care about quality of products you sell, you should care enough to not photos with obvious counterfeits. Again your argument is that you shouldn't trust your eyes, you must dive in pool of shit just to be sure.

[SanctePieDecime]

Look, all I am trying to say is that you have presented no hard facts about this and thus making these claims amounts to slander (which is highly unethical). I will not stand for it.

Yes, the photos might look suspicious, but there could be legitimate reasons for the reason they look the way they do.

I get it. Time and again I have said: yes there is still a good chance that they are selling frauds. But assertting that they are a fraud as fact without actually having any hard evidence (personal experience with the supplier, hard numbers from measurments of the supplier's products, etc.) just begs your own credibility.

In America one pust prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone is guilty (that is to say that they are assumed to be innocent until proven otherwise). Maybe that is not the way they do it where you are, but it is the way they do it here in America. What you are doing is comparable to saying that a certain category of people have a higher statistical chance of committing a crime, and so they must have committed a crime. For example, ____ race has a high statistical likely hood of committing a crime, and, look, there is one of them and he has got a ton of tattoos and peircings and wears a dark hoodie...that means he must have committed a crime. Utter rubbish. Maybe the stats are in your favor, but it would certainly not be appropriate to just go around claiming the person is a criminal when all you have is statistics about a group and no actual hard facts about the person.

[wraper]

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B0969KNBV5/ref=cm_cr_unknown?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=three_star&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=1#reviews-filter-bar

I started a project using the NE5532 chips. When I did a diode check on pins 2 and 3 on my multi meter the meter found no diodes. I then tested with a different meter with the same results. All the NE5532 chips had this problem
I then went online and to search for fake NE5532 chips and to my surprise there were a lot results with this problem. It seems as though if you buy from China your chances of getting a fake chip are great. Buyer Beware.
One thing to note I have used some of the other chips from this kit and had no problems. Just came across this problem when the NE5532.

[Infraviolet]

I've used amazon for stocking up on some kits of generic breadboarding parts, but beyond that I'd too avoid them for electronics, Farnell and RS actually give you the proper parts, and have the datasheets clearly linked to. Amazon doesn;t seem to have any facility for sellers to put a pdf document on their product page, nor any good way to filter search results the way electronics sellers do (by value, by tolerance, by pin count...) . Amazon can be fine for mechanical parts and motors, but definitely not for silicon, especially not anything you'll be permanently soldering in to a circuit. Amazon is also terrible for "test" equipment, many of the multimeters sold on there give results that are not simply inaccurate, but utterly wrong, I foolishly bought one once and it told me a 9V battery was giving 0.5V and that a 10K resistor had infinite ohms. For anything you need to give you proper results, particular your main multimeter, its RS/Farnell/Mouser/Digikey again, the cheapest on those are as cheap as Amazon's.

[SanctePieDecime]

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B0969KNBV5/ref=cm_cr_unknown?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=three_star&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=1#reviews-filter-bar

I started a project using the NE5532 chips. When I did a diode check on pins 2 and 3 on my multi meter the meter found no diodes. I then tested with a different meter with the same results. All the NE5532 chips had this problem
I then went online and to search for fake NE5532 chips and to my surprise there were a lot results with this problem. It seems as though if you buy from China your chances of getting a fake chip are great. Buyer Beware.
One thing to note I have used some of the other chips from this kit and had no problems. Just came across this problem when the NE5532.

I was really looking for more of something to contribute to the discussion more than just: "here is what someone else said", but that is the sort of thing I would be looking for in a legitimate claim.

I am not sure why you are quoting it considering that you have already established that you do not trust Amazon reviews. You have also expressed that there are plenty of people who do not know what they are doing who buy these things so it could easily be attributed to that. And there are always going to be negative reviews from a product even if it is from a reputable supplier like digikey (sometimes because people do not know what they are talking about):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-digikey-marketplace-no-different-from-aliexpress/msg5553427/#msg5553427

But I digress.

So, yes, (although not your own) this claim can be accepted as legitimate criticism not mere slander. But if you are going to consider that a legitimate source, you have to consider all of the other Amazon reviews on that item as legitimate (you can't just pick and choose what fits your narrative and ignore the rest). In that case you would find an overwhelmingly positive response...so I am not sure that you want to do that.

[wraper]

So, yes, (although not your own) this claim can be accepted as legitimate criticism not mere slander. But if you are going to consider that a legitimate source, you have to consider all of the other Amazon reviews on that item as legitimate (you can't just pick and choose what fits your narrative and ignore the rest). In that case you would find an overwhelmingly positive response...so I am not sure that you want to do that.

95% of positive reviews are garbage, especially on Aliexpress where people usually leave positive reviews after just receiving an item. Amazon is not that much better. I don't care that many people are happy with what they received as usually they don't know any better, I always look if someone figured out it's garbage and why exactly. A while ago I bought POWXS rechargeable batteries on Amazon with a lot of nearly all positive reviews. Maybe there were some bad but nothing to do with capacity. Guess what, they were garbage with 70% of rated capacity for AA and 60% for AAA, heck I could buy IKEA branded Japanese eneloop cells for the same price if I bothered to visit IKEA that is on opposite end of the city unfortunately, so just ordered on amazon together with some other stuff against my better judgment.

[SanctePieDecime]

And there are plenty of garbage negative reviews on Amazon and elsewhere:

And there are always going to be negative reviews from a product even if it is from a reputable supplier like digikey (sometimes because people do not know what they are talking about):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-digikey-marketplace-no-different-from-aliexpress/msg5553427/#msg5553427

...that does not exuse picking what fits your narrative and ignoring the rest.

I have found plenty of garbage negative reviews on Amazon. I even found one where someone claimed that the physical parts they were sent for building a soccer goal were wrong even though the photos they included clearly showed that they had swapped the location of where two of the parts were supposed to go.

Yes, you can weight the negative reviews more than the positive reviews but you don't just ignore them. I don't suppose you go around only buying products that have exclusively positive reviews and absolutely no negative reviews.

Sad excuse. Very sad...

[wraper]

And there are plenty of garbage negative reviews on Amazon and elsewhere:

And there are always going to be negative reviews from a product even if it is from a reputable supplier like digikey (sometimes because people do not know what they are talking about):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-digikey-marketplace-no-different-from-aliexpress/msg5553427/#msg5553427

...that does not exuse picking what fits your narrative and ignoring the rest.

That's why you read what the review actually says. If it's nonsensical, inconclusive, then ignore it. In example I provided, person did a test against which no argument possible to change the conclusion that part was fake. I'd rather like to discuss product pictures from buyers but unfortunately a few that are available are not clear enough to see the markings.

[SanctePieDecime]

Agreed. But who is going to go out of their way to to say: this specific component "met all the specifications...blah blah blah".

By nature, critical reviews are going to be more specific becuase they are pointing out exactly what was wrong. A positive review is usually going to say that the person is overall satisfied with the product and will not go into specifics because there is nothing specific to draw attention to. Generally it is assumed (for any product on any platform) that if a product is positively reviewed that the product worked and so there is no need to go in the details of why or how it worked. The same is not the case for negative reviews. I think you know that.

[wraper]

Yes, you can weight the negative reviews more than the positive reviews but you don't just ignore them. I don't suppose you go around only buying products that have exclusively positive reviews and absolutely no negative reviews.

Sad excuse. Very sad...

When positive reviews say they're happy with the product like components, it's absolutely worthless. They're worth something only when there is a picture or buyer says why its looks to be genuine. But it's way too rare.
Here is an example why. https://aliexpress.com/item/1005006152077072.html
Hundreds of reviews, nearly all positive (except one that says it's fake with no explanation), people happy with that IRFZ44N, many say something like "just received, not tested"  ... All fake garbage on their pictures.

[SanctePieDecime]

Agreed. The specific example is irrelevant to the specific supplier we are discussing, but the principle you are expressing holds true the supplier we are discussing. I do not have a problem with you ignoring those reviews, it is the ones where they say that they tested it and it worked. You may say that they did not test it thourougly enough, but who are you to say how much they tested it based on the limited information people tend to include in positive reviews.

[J-R]

Sure, not all the products are fake, but in the videos I posted by Louis Rossmann he makes the point that these sellers with nonsense names are using those names in order to better push questionable/fake/junk products.  That is their goal.  It's not their goal to build up a high-quality brand name that people can trust because that takes blood/sweat/tears/money.

So by supporting and defending these people so much you are 100% part of the ongoing problem.


Sometimes these kits from Digilent go on sale and combined with their education discount and free shipping can be somewhat reasonable to get some random parts for breadboard tinkering:
https://digilent.com/shop/analog-parts-kit/
https://digilent.com/shop/myparts-kit-from-texas-instruments-companion-parts-kit-for-ni-mydaq/
(I checked my records and I paid less than $50 for the Analog parts kit the last time it was on sale.)

BTW, Jameco is having a free US shipping sale right now for orders over $50, so this grab bag collection might be of interest: https://www.jameco.com/z/GB197-JAMECO-Schwab-s-Grab-Bag-Collection-of-Must-Have-Electronic-Components_163213.html

Edit: These are also fun: https://www.jameco.com/z/GB191-3LBS-JAMECO-3-LB-Grab-Bag-100-s-of-Miscellaneous-Electronic-Components_135263.html

[wraper]

it is the ones where they say that they tested it and it worked. You may say that they did not test it thourougly enough, but who are you to say how much they tested it based on the limited information people tend to include in positive reviews.

"Tested and it works" is only good enough to tell it's not an empty package or a dissimilar part. If someone tested them to be within spec, most likely they would say it if bothered to write a review.

[BillyO]

Reading through this thread is interesting.

One would get the impression that EVERY SINGLE PURCHASE from place like eBay, Amazon, AliE, ect.. guarantees you will end up with a fake.  This is just patently untrue.  One would also get the impression that it is the retail sellers that are to blame.  Again, the is simply untrue.

Sure, you will get fakes, and if the supplier will not give you a refund, then ALi, eBay, Amazon, etc.. will.

The thing is, most of these retailers DO NOT want to be in the position to have to refund since they loose on the deal.  They buy these parts in good faith from the wholesale markets and the wholesale market get then from god knows who.  It's the god knows who people that are making the fakes.

Some suppliers I deal with on eBay do test parts.  I have never gotten fakes off them.  They are usually not the cheapest, but in some cases, especially where the part is obsolete, they might be the only source.  Others I deal with are very responsive.  I have gotten the odd fake off them in the past and if I let them know they will either give my money back right away, or they will locate good parts and ship them to me.

I'd say I ended up with fakes less than 5% of the time but it has never cost me anything.  Don't be afraid to let the seller and/or the platform know if you have problems.  In nearly every case I have had they want to resolve the issue.  Those that don't will never get my business again.

Does that mean I never shop at Digi-key?  Of course not.  I use Digi-Key (and other top tier suppliers) when I don't have the time to get something from China.

All that said, yeah there are some obvious fakes in the pictures from the Amazon site the OP posted.  They may do what they are supposed to, but they may not.  "Ya pays yer money, an ya takes yer chances!"

[xrunner]

Any thoughts / insights / warnings?

Well I'll give it a shot. I'm ordering some stuff anyway so I think I'll get a box of the nylon spacers and see what I get. Hey you only live once. 

[wraper]

Some suppliers I deal with on eBay do test parts.  I have never gotten fakes off them.  They are usually not the cheapest, but in some cases, especially where the part is obsolete, they might be the only source.  Others I deal with are very responsive.  I have gotten the odd fake off them in the past and if I let them know they will either give my money back right away, or they will locate good parts and ship them to me.

I'd say I ended up with fakes less than 5% of the time but it has never cost me anything.  Don't be afraid to let the seller and/or the platform know if you have problems.  In nearly every case I have had they want to resolve the issue.  Those that don't will never get my business again.

If you got only <5% fakes, it means you either ordered something quite specific or you simply have no clue how many fakes and recycled/relabeled e-waste you actually got. And buying something like obsolete transistors is nearly guaranteed to result in receiving counterfeits because if something is no longer available on the market, they'll make it. As I said earlier, if you want cheap parts, buy from LCSC (it's usually even cheaper than aliexpress for actually genuine stuff). Also there is UT-source for obsolete parts that is quite a bit less dodgy than aliexpress but you still may get fakes.

One would get the impression that EVERY SINGLE PURCHASE from place like eBay, Amazon, AliE, ect.. guarantees you will end up with a fake.  This is just patently untrue.  One would also get the impression that it is the retail sellers that are to blame.  Again, the is simply untrue.

It depends on what you buy. If you buy cheap western brand power mosfets/vregs in TO-220 package, opamps (especially audio), chance of getting fakes is about 99% because sellers know their audience (clueless tinkerers).

[BillyO]

or you simply have no clue how many fakes and recycled/relabeled e-waste you actually got.

Well, aren't you a nasty little piece of work!  Are you always like this?

No, I test my parts.  At the very minimum I test them to meet the specifications pertinent to my application.  I'm not the blissfully ignorant idiot you seem to think I am.

As I said in my previous post, I'm careful who I buy from.

I'd also really appreciate you not assuming you are somehow better than me and trying to call me out as some sort of dolt.  You know nothing about me whatsoever and you've made an error here.

The internet, isn't it great?

[wraper]

At the very minimum I test them to meet the specifications pertinent to my application.

Sounds as if you'll consider counterfeit a genuine as long as it resembles original part and apparently works for your application.

I'm not the blissfully ignorant idiot you seem to think I am.

I've seen too many blissfully ignorant people who unknowingly buy fake junk to believe your claims.

I said in my previous post, I'm careful who I buy from.

And every time someone hails a good trusted Chinese seller, I can find them selling fakes or already know that seller for selling counterfeits. Give some actual examples of those trusted sellers.

I'd also really appreciate you not assuming you are somehow better than me and trying to call me out as some sort of dolt.

I know that it's virtually impossible to get <5% of counterfeits on aliexpress unless you only buy some very specific or Chinese brand stuff.

You know nothing about me whatsoever and you've made an error here.

I don't know you, but I know about the stuff you talk about. Unless you inspect all those parts under microscope, compare marking with genuine stuff, check if marking cannot be wiped with solvent, and measure at least basic specs to match with datasheet, by default I consider your claim about <5% of fakes blissfully ignorant.

[BillyO]

And every time someone hails a good trusted Chinese seller,

You mean like UT-Source?

You make me laugh.

I know small people like to have big mouths, so I'll leave you the last word on this.  I have better things to do with my time than argue with you.

(BTW, UT-Source is one of my preferred suppliers)

[wraper]

And every time someone hails a good trusted Chinese seller,

You mean like UT-Source?

You make me laugh.

And you just made a straw man argument. I said you can get fakes there but the chance you'll get genuine obsolete stuff is significantly better than on aliexpress. I never said it's a trusted source. I literally said you may get fakes there too. And if you buy jellybean MOSFET, opamps and similar stuff at either of those places, you have serious lapse of judgment problems.

I have better things to do with my time than argue with you.

You made a bunch of claims but cannot share a single trusted seller.

[wraper]

BillyO, I found a picture of your project with IC from "Texas instruments" that is not from TI at all but has a very common Chinese imitation of TI logo.