Altium Designer new pricing model and high end / low end tool in development

[Fsck]

And you can't get the latest tech in it either

What is this fixation with 'the latest tech' and hyper-workstations and 'serious pro 24/7 draughtsmen'? AFAICS, it's just to put the kibbosh on the idea that the host OS for Altium could move in theory if not in practice.

Remember: this thread started with a rant to say that Altium should flog a cut-down low-to-zero cost version for hobbiests. What hobbiest is going to be considering the sort of desktop y'all are saying will barely crawl with this stuff? [Yes, I know some will have Big Toys but many will not - otherwise why will they need a cut-price version?]. How many Altium users here really use it all day, every day? More likely it is used when part of a project needs it, but the rest of the time other tools are used to do other things.

Whether y'all like it or not, Altium is usable on less-than-bleeding-edge machines with screens that aren't wall-to-wall. Gosh, you can even use it with one screen. I have seen it used in a VM which was just a window on a screen. That is not to deny that bigger is better (and it I were using it 24/7 I'd want the best kit available); it is saying there is a range of needs and usability. It is certainly fine for a hobbyist with limited resources.

I was also going to raise the same point. I'm not sure AD actually scales in performace to many (4-80 physical cores or 8-160 [this is basically 1 to 8 sockets] virtual ones) cores or with the uncrippled dp-float or to the other uncrippled features in WS cards. I'd actually be curious to know if AD scales with video performance: say from 1 high end card to Quad-fancymarketingterm

[Mechatrommer]

I have a HP 'laptop' with a Quad core + hyperthreading (windows sees 8 cores)

dude dont even mention that, i browsed about current HT its still the same no magic, at most HT can only give you 10-20% boost, but worst sometime you wont see any difference or even make things slower. real algorithm needs real physical core. you may as well entirely disable HT to avoid software confusion.

Features a 1920x1080 3D display with active glasses.

when we are talking ergonomics we usually dont talk about technical side of a thing, how powerfull the chip or cpu can cramp the mips in or how cool it is. ergonomics... its something more correlated to human form factor. one can push thing miniaturized, but all in all he will drag it away from "ergonomination" or "ergonomistic" whatever you want to term it. 1920x1080, if its in 8" monitor is still useless to the eyes. with physically larger screen, no matter whats the resolution is (given a practical and some acceptable dpi threshold, say at 1000 x 800 @ 23" screen) we are able to look at it for farther distance without sacrificing loosing perception to objects 3D space and time, hence avoiding things like myopia crap. one can say oh we can finger spread and zoom on smaller monitor, well yeah, you still loose alot of 3d space and time.

for photoshopp geeks that say it can be done in tablet, tell me how are you going select multiple layers, merge or group and copy (duplicate) in under than 5 seconds? (last night i did just that on the PC) one can say bye bye to a PC (something with full keyboard and mouse), they'll also bid bye bye to all the goodness and dandies of the good ol days.

[Corporate666]

And you can't get the latest tech in it either

What is this fixation with 'the latest tech' and hyper-workstations and 'serious pro 24/7 draughtsmen'? AFAICS, it's just to put the kibbosh on the idea that the host OS for Altium could move in theory if not in practice.

Remember: this thread started with a rant to say that Altium should flog a cut-down low-to-zero cost version for hobbiests. What hobbiest is going to be considering the sort of desktop y'all are saying will barely crawl with this stuff? [Yes, I know some will have Big Toys but many will not - otherwise why will they need a cut-price version?]. How many Altium users here really use it all day, every day? More likely it is used when part of a project needs it, but the rest of the time other tools are used to do other things.

Whether y'all like it or not, Altium is usable on less-than-bleeding-edge machines with screens that aren't wall-to-wall. Gosh, you can even use it with one screen. I have seen it used in a VM which was just a window on a screen. That is not to deny that bigger is better (and it I were using it 24/7 I'd want the best kit available); it is saying there is a range of needs and usability. It is certainly fine for a hobbyist with limited resources.

There is no fixation at all - perhaps you haven't been keeping up with the various debates throughout the thread?  The point I was addressing had nothing to do with whether Altium will run on less-than-top-end hardware (there is no debate that it will), the point I was making was that portable devices will always be inferior in processing power to fixed devices.  The more portable the device, the less powerful it will be - and that is never going to change as some folks think (i.e. the suggestion that in the future, the apps will run on the smartphone/tablet with the video/keyboard using traditional fixed hardware). 

That desktops (or full fledged laptops) are going to remain the weapon of choice for any serious engineering means that the claims that we won't have Windows desktops in 5 years aren't going to come true.

[EEVblog]

That desktops (or full fledged laptops) are going to remain the weapon of choice for any serious engineering means that the claims that we won't have Windows desktops in 5 years aren't going to come true.

Yes, there are two different arguments going on in this thread.
Regardless of how "powerful" handhelds get, Altium and most other major companies that write such high end tools won't ever bother supporting supporting any phone or tablet OS, because that is not how their users use the product and won't use their product for the foreseeable future.
Altium will still be on Windows in 10 years time, bet your bottom dollar.

[T3sl4co1l]

I was also going to raise the same point. I'm not sure AD actually scales in performace to many (4-80 physical cores or 8-160 [this is basically 1 to 8 sockets] virtual ones) cores or with the uncrippled dp-float or to the other uncrippled features in WS cards. I'd actually be curious to know if AD scales with video performance: say from 1 high end card to Quad-fancymarketingterm

It doesn't.  At my PPoE, I had an 8 core machine (4 + hyperthreading) running Win7 x64.  Whether moving stuff around, performing DRC, building objects, or even running a simulation, it only ever used exactly 12-13% CPU (or none when idle).  I would recommend at least a dual core machine to run Altium and the like (thus giving you free CPU cycles to do things in the background while Altium is "thinking"), but more than that won't yield much benefit unless you're doing other things that warrant it.

That's another big pile of BS that they'll have a hard time with: using multithreaded code.  A single thread SPICE engine, this day and age, is ridiculous.  Single thread anything.

I am impressed that they can at least catch module-level crashes.  Though like Windows 98, it leaves the rest of the process unstable and still needs to be restarted.  They could have Windows XP-level stability if all they had to do was merely restart crashed threads.

Tim

[Mechatrommer]

nothing to do with whether Altium will run on less-than-top-end hardware (there is no debate that it will)

the actual argument i believe is that whether Altium will extent their support to other OS and then later came the tablet argument to make Altium to be able to run in. will Altium ever catch with the today's trend or mainstream? currently? its a big NO from number of experience users here. what is "no debate" is whether Altium (or other Pro SW) will go "full" on "tablet"? (or even lower-end-hw for the sake of it)  that is delusional dream imho. what is discussed is tablets is going mainstream no doubt there, mainstream as crush candy game, WhatsApp ChitChat yes, but the misconception is tablets is going mainstream in the line of "Pro users"? the points have been laid out by both sides.

Altium support for other OS and HW will certainly make it easy on the reach to "young people" (or from the linux side of people)  but soon the young or linux people who decide to go Pro Altium, they have to pick PC (or Windows), so this one is rather chasing each own tails type of business but Altium does not chasing anything, it decided to expect that people will chase it. so God speed.

[jmole]

My apologies for not thoroughly searching the thread, but I'm wondering if Altium has released any kind of concrete timeline or pricing scheme for the different levels of AD14?  Really don't want to get on the phone with Sales right now.

[peter.mitchell]

My apologies for not thoroughly searching the thread, but I'm wondering if Altium has released any kind of concrete timeline or pricing scheme for the different levels of AD14?  Really don't want to get on the phone with Sales right now.

Not that I have seen. I am itching to find out too, I might be able to save a bucket of money on my subscription.

[free_electron]

There is no timeline or pricing known.
It is going to be a multi-level pricing scheme. You buy the options and features you want/need.
What the pricepoints will be is unknown. (like : 100$ could be eurocard 4 layer pcb , 250$ could be unlimited 4 layer etc <- speculation , as example only )
What the limitations of the pricepoints will be is unknown. ( like: the 100$ version could be for non-commercial use only  <- note:speculation. as example only)

The tool does exist . I even know what color scheme of the splashscreen is.

And that's all i'm going to say about that. Anything beyond that is speculation and / or i don't know

[EEVblog]

My apologies for not thoroughly searching the thread, but I'm wondering if Altium has released any kind of concrete timeline or pricing scheme for the different levels of AD14?

No, but the sales people thought (and were telling people) it was due in Oct (last year), that's why I rushed to video at the time because I was of the understanding that it was imminent.
Looks like that was either:
a) BS and never going to happen
b) was the plan but they changed their minds after seeing my video (one can only hope!)

[EEVblog]

What the pricepoints will be is unknown. (like : 100$ could be eurocard 4 layer pcb , 250$ could be unlimited 4 layer etc <- speculation , as example only )

I've since heard that they were planning in the $1K range as the lowest option (i.e. match Eagle's highest level pricing), but this could be completely wrong.

The tool does exist . I even know what color scheme of the splashscreen is.

Yes, the tool does exist and has been shown to people. Haven't seen it myself though.
Maybe even to all of the Beta users, but they are under a non-disclosure agreement.

Another rumor is that it's an entirely new tool, with new-ish usability i.e. not just the full product with features and options disabled, which is of course a very stupid way to do it if that turns out to be the case. But once again, could be completely wrong.

The only thing we seem to know for sure is that they have told the shareholders they are committed to it, it's part of their grand plan for market domination. So unless they do a complete about-face to the shareholders, it should happen eventually.
It's a winning idea of course, the only thing is how much they'll screw it up by.
(Yes, based on Altium's track record, I'm not using the word if)

[koko79]

I find it hard to believe they would make it a different tool. In Cadence whatever level you use it is the same GUI from free version to OrCAD to high end Allegro.

I'll laugh my head off if Altium make the new tool different to the existing one!

[JuKu]

I find it hard to believe they would make it a different tool. In Cadence whatever level you use it is the same GUI from free version to OrCAD to high end Allegro.

I'll laugh my head off if Altium make the new tool different to the existing one!

Start translating Delphi stuff to some 64 bit supported language, use the sales of the low end tool to fund the effort... Might make sense - or not.

[Icchan]

I have tried to read the whole conversation, but I'm confused as to why some say that Altium Designer is even a choice unless you have a big company that's capable of providing that for you? I mean... 7000+ dollars for a license... that's not something one can buy without some serious business behind it.

Kicad has had the CERN branch for more than a year now, and it has only 4 developers (two if you discount the administrators of that group) and that branch requires some serious money to be successful. The first estimates we're something like ~500k$ (300k€) and they can put in enough development to even surpass the Altium Designer in schematic and layout. Even if I highly doubt that it could be done entirely , the branch is a heaven sent since it tries to wake up the dried up development of the Kicad and bring it to somewhere what can really be used in a business or in a serious production environment and designing complex boards.

I recommend anyone who can to support the CERN branch in donations or to be active in the development if it. We really need something that's truly capable, but open. And currently, we really don't have anything of that sort. This CERN branch could change the game entirely if it gets the support it needs.

http://cernandsociety.web.cern.ch/technology/kicad-development

[Macbeth]

I have tried to read the whole conversation, but I'm confused as to why some say that Altium Designer is even a choice unless you have a big company that's capable of providing that for you? I mean... 7000+ dollars for a license... that's not something one can buy without some serious business behind it.

Kicad has had the CERN branch for more than a year now, and it has only 4 developers (two if you discount the administrators of that group) and that branch requires some serious money to be successful. The first estimates we're something like ~500k$ (300k€) and they can put in enough development to even surpass the Altium Designer in schematic and layout. Even if I highly doubt that it could be done entirely , the branch is a heaven sent since it tries to wake up the dried up development of the Kicad and bring it to somewhere what can really be used in a business or in a serious production environment and designing complex boards.

I recommend anyone who can to support the CERN branch in donations or to be active in the development if it. We really need something that's truly capable, but open. And currently, we really don't have anything of that sort. This CERN branch could change the game entirely if it gets the support it needs.

http://cernandsociety.web.cern.ch/technology/kicad-development

Yep, I am currently using RS free DesignSpark PCB, and it's nice, but I can't import all my old OrCAD stuff. I've recently downloaded the CERN KiCAD and will use it for my next project before I get too used to DesignSpark. I believe Farnell used to give their version of Eagle for free, but now require licences. Compared to the ancient OrCAD DOS based interface the Windows based CAD packages are much nicer.

[senso]

You can run Eagle as freeware or freemiun or whatever they call the 10x8cm two layer limited version this week..

[luky315]

I talked with the guys on the Altium booth at the embedded world in Nürnberg. They were very skeptical and joked that a usable entry level version will come on the 1. April (for those from a differt culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day) or after the release of a "big" Altium Designer revision without annoying bugs

[sacherjj]

I worry that 15 will bring us something very useful, like 3D printing cases for our boards  , instead of just making a rock solid product and making length routing ACTUALLY WORK.   

[ludzinc]

I tried to sign up for Altium's Beta Test program, specifically for their 'lite' version.

I had a chat with rep yesterday, who regretfully told me that a lite version is currently on hold and there is no immediate development planned.

I'm lucky enough to have access to Altium at work, but am putting serious thought into using KiCAD for my next home project.

[halfwalker]

I'm sure everyone has had a look at KiCAD.  It works well enough, though it's definitely not great.  Thing is, CERN has a nice roadmap for it ...

http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages

If they really do manage to come through on these, including the 3D work, then KiCAD will rapidly be able to overcome Eagle.  The bloody window for Altium is shrinking.  If they don't get off their ass right quick, they're going to miss the opportunity. 

They'll still be the best in many eyes, but that won't matter if people can get good-enough for bloody free.  Get the AD Lite out there, with Dave's video rant taken to heart, and there's a chance to own the market.  Miss it, and well, that would just be too sad wouldn't it.

[free_electron]

Kicad doesnt come close to altium. even after all the work will be done in the Cern roadmap it doesnt come close.

sure you will be able to draw a schematic and a board. but where is the mechanical integration , parts procurement, lifecycle management , library management ? for hobby that doesn't matter (although it is very nice that, at the end of the design i click one button and my order is placed at digikey or mouser) but industrially speaking ? Kicad or Eagle or the others don't have a chance.

I was at the ALtium users group meeting yesterday and there was a presentation about this. Making a product is much more than spitting out gerber file from a netlist. it is everything from parts procurement, making sure everything fits mechanically, is connected electrically , can git rid of heat thermally , can deliver electrons in bulk where and when needed ( power analyses for trace widths )  , place nice with maxwells laws ( controlled impedance, differential routing m, planes etc )

that is where altium pulls everything together.

They are working hard at rewriting the core. there is an API and SDK avaialble and third parties have begun porting. Altium only has so many developers and there are area's where they cannot keep up with the leaders of the pack, so by exposing the API they can pull in these tools.

ANsoft, Nimbic and a bunch of others are working on plugins for altium to extend the platform. it doesn't make sense for altium to work on a field solver. only a small subset of people need that. but, by allowing Ansoft to plug their solver into altium the people that need a solver can use the best there is !
same for power analysis.

Will these be available for hobby ? no. An Ansoft of Nimbic licence is tens of thousands of $. costs triple to quadruple the cost of altium itself. But, if you need it you need it. And it is now available in altium.

[EEVblog]

They are working hard at rewriting the core. there is an API and SDK avaialble and third parties have begun porting. Altium only has so many developers and there are area's where they cannot keep up with the leaders of the pack, so by exposing the API they can pull in these tools.

That's all great and everything, but where is the low cost version they promised?

[JuKu]

This illustrates micely why I let my support subscription to expire. Free_electron is right in most cases, but still:

but where is the mechanical integration , parts procurement, lifecycle management , library management ?

This is all good, and this is where Altium puts the effort. However, they have dropped the ball on basics:

... is connected electrically...

Fail, if the product has more than one circuit board. Altium's one schematic = one circuit board project model was insufficient from the beginning (No ERC over connectors, no cable management etc.). I've used Altium 20+ years, and there is no effort to this direction.

...can deliver electrons in bulk where and when needed ( power analyses for trace widths )

Fail in much more basic stuff than power analysis, Altium gets the voltages wrong. The ERC is not sufficient: It still allows me to connect positive terminal to negative power input,  drive 3V logic from 5V output etc. Nor does it understand programmable devices: A pin can be an output, input, 3-state etc depending on the application. In other words, when they went on from 95 or something like that (when they were about where KiCAD is now), I wanted to see a least some effort to the core application, electronic design. But there hasn't been any significant improvement in ERC in ten years or so.

There are more shortcomings in the basics: Autorouter, placement*, bug fixing**, version management***, ... And as I don't see any effort for these, I'm not paying any more.

 *: How hard would it be to automatically distribute decoupling caps close to power pins? Not at all, provided the development managers get the mindset of actually understanding what the customers do and how they could help. Fail.
**: All the fancy features are nice, but Altium still cannot route RAM, that function needs a bug-free length calculation routine.
***: Did I say their project model flawed? It does not understand that there can be different versions of a product during the lifecycle? It does give hooks to version management software, but SVN does not tell me what is the difference with PCB 1.0 and 1.1.

that is where altium pulls everything together.

Not everything. Rather, Altium handles some stuff that others don't. Up to you if you need the fancy stuff, but the writing is on the wall: Ignore the core application needs and the users go away. I stopped paying. I'll save the money, and once someone (KiCAD 2018, perhaps?) has a schematic with ERC that understands electronics*, I'll switch. same for PCB. Altium is standing still on the core stuff; the competitor is guaranteed to get past at some point.

*: Voltage ranges on pins, easy to change the pin function in a particular application, ERC over cables and connectors (boards connected together, automatic interface specifications!), net driven through a resistor is still driven etc. Lots of important issues that Altium has had years to address.

[DerekG]

I find it hard to believe they (Altium) would make it a different tool.

I'll laugh my head off if Altium make the new tool different to the existing one!

I would agree. If my memory serves me correctly, Protel sold the rights to use & further develop their Autotrax PCB software to Microcode Engineering (USA) in the mid to late 1990's. Microcode added their own schematic & spice modules, bundling the whole lot together and selling it as "Circuitmaker". In about 2000, this product was competing against Protel International who then decided to purchase Microcode Engineering.

Protel sold "CircuitMaker 2000" for a couple of years for AUD$1000 to $1500 before deciding it was eating into their full software suite. Protel (Altium) then canned the product (which was probably one of the best low end PCB packages for the money at that time).

I could be wrong, but the Altium board has pulled the wool over its shareholders eyes for years now. It is likely that the  board is up to its old tricks & is promising something it will never deliver (ie a full function version of Altium Designer that has a size/pin limitation for low end/entry level users).

[DerekG]

Nick Martin sold his remaining shares in Altium (on 30th October 2013) for AUD$30.85 million. He waited 2 years after being booted for Altium's share value to rise.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/quotes/announcement/ALU/altium-limited/1461974

Looks like booting him off the board was good for business, with sales increasing 11.2% and profit (after tax & interest) up by 177% for the half year ending December 2013.

http://news.iguana2.com/thebull/ASX/ALU/785405

For the second half 2013:
American Sales   US$10.2 million
European Sales  US$13.2 million
China Sales        US$4.5 million
Asia Pacific Sales US$2.6 million

13th March 2014 - Altium announces new sales office in Newton, Massachusetts USA.

Talk about revisiting the past!

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11662142.htm