Two phrases I'm sick of hearing; "open source" and "arduino"

[glossywhite]

All you ever hear about these days is "open source" (which is inherently not a good philosophy compared to "free software", but that's not the point) and "arduino" this "arduino" that.

Is this "arduino" thing a fad, like the iDevices from Apple? Also, which moron came up with the name "wiring" for the language it uses? Is this some ploy for the software nerds to somehow appear "friendly" with the electronics techs, in a condescending way? Sorry, but this p*sses me off - at LEAST give the language a name which means something or relates to something from the heritage of the product. It's probably popular because it means that mere mortals now think they can code MCUs :-S

Okay, I maybe have got this wrong, but all you ever hear is arduino and f***ing open source... as if it being open source suddenly (and magically) makes the crap name a brilliant name, and the project the most amazing platform JUST BECAUSE IT'S OPEN FLIPPING SOURCE!

ughhhhh, pass me a bucket, this utopian bullshit is making me cringe. HEre we see some guys from the project waffling on about it as if they've just discovered a cure for cancer...:

http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/arduino-the-documentary-how-open-source-hardware-became-cheap-and-fun-2011018/

[mikeselectricstuff]

Must say I find it irritating when I hear "program" called something else to make it sound "easier" - "patch", "sketch"...
However anything that gets people interested in electronics has to be a good thing, although  "Open Source" does sometimes appear to be an end in itself regardless of actual usefulness or quality...
Sometimes ya just gets what ya pays for!

[wd5gnr]

Well I'm glad it isn't just me. Long before I'd ever heard of an Arduino, I produced the "APP IV" (one of the APP series http://www.awce.com/app4.htm). Guess what it had? An Atmel ATMega 8 with a bootloader and a serial port. The gcc libraries were included for the onboard features. You can use it with a USB cable. 10MHz is the only technical difference. We did sell quite a few of them (especially from articles in Nuts & Volts that featured them), but then the Arduino shows up. Open source board (yawn, its not a big deal -- power supply, IC, clock). The compiler is gcc but has a cute front end and a built-in "main" routine. If you look at the FAQ, you can use the Arduino software to drive an APP IV. So what's the big deal?

Granted, because it has such critical mass it is nice that you can get the "shields" for it -- same way that every store has cr@p that fits an iPhone but no one has stuff for my Blackberry. But that's a chicken and egg problem. The Arduino didn't get popular because it had shields. It got shields because it was popular.

So I couldn't help but feel a little cheated. Many of us had rolled out Arduino-like projects that didn't achieve nearly the success it has. Because its open source? Atmel provides bootloaders. I don't think many people who have started using Arduino are likely to modify the board design -- anyone who could modify it could probably lay it out from scratch in an hour or two. The software is cute, but underneath it is still gcc.

Not to sound like sour grapes, but really? Personally, I've switched to cheap ARM boards and why those aren't more popular I have no idea. I don't sell any either -- so no ax to grind. But I can get a board in the 60MIPs range with 64K or RAM and boatload for flash for $30 or $40 with great compiler support. Unless I making more than a handful of an item, that's the way to go.

[EEVblog]

Granted, because it has such critical mass it is nice that you can get the "shields" for it -- same way that every store has cr@p that fits an iPhone but no one has stuff for my Blackberry. But that's a chicken and egg problem. The Arduino didn't get popular because it had shields. It got shields because it was popular.

So I couldn't help but feel a little cheated. Many of us had rolled out Arduino-like projects that didn't achieve nearly the success it has. Because its open source? Atmel provides bootloaders. I don't think many people who have started using Arduino are likely to modify the board design -- anyone who could modify it could probably lay it out from scratch in an hour or two. The software is cute, but underneath it is still gcc.

The Arduino got lucky and was the right thing at the right time, simple as that.
Nothing new at all about Arduino or open hardware, or shield like plug-on boards, or anything else to do with it.
The Arduino rode the new Hacker/Maker movement on the back of some bootstrap support from the creative arts industries.
The rest is the snowball effect, not because of what it is or how good it is, but because it was simply there at the right time.

Open Hardware pisses me off a bit too, and I've mentioned it before. It's not new, people (including myself) have been doing it for many many decades.

Dave.

[Chasm]

Hacker, Maker, opening Hardware, Arduino - I saw something about this.




Oops. Sorry, seems I can't turn of the youtube embedding.

And to add some content: The Arduino Uno introduced me to the ATmega8U2. It's cheaper than the FT232RL and should work as well if not better for my purposes.

Other than that, yeah, there is much hype and not necessarily as much content.

[JohnS_AZ]

So what's the big deal?

This big deal is quite simply that it's a big deal.

Sure there are no grand hardware or software innovations in the Arduino. What sets it aside from everything preceding it is the (originally unintended) marketing strategy. I've seen all sort of micro boards come out over the past 15 years and every one of them was pushed toward fairly astute hardware/software professionals or advanced amateurs. Novices need not apply. The Arduino, however, was designed and aimed at the utterly clueless. People terrified of technology at the chips and solder and code level. They pretty much said here's the Arduino. It's warm and cozy, it's easy, and it's not at all scary.

I'm no newbie. The first programming I learned was on a 6805, and was written in machine code! We didn't even have an assembler. Bit banging with toggle switches and a 'load' button. Man, THOSE were the (fucking miserable) days!!  I think that it's incredibly cool that kids and students have an introduction to electronics and software that is "friendly", and that doesn't have such a dauntingly steep learning curve. Plenty of them will write a few sketches, say that was cool, then go on to become accountants and lawyers. A few, however, will catch the spark. They'll say that was cool, but what's a PIC? an ARM? What's "C"?

I believe that's the vast majority of Arduino users. People playing, having fun, and that's totally cool.
Arduino is to electronic and software engineering as an Erector Set is to mechanical engineering.

--on the other hand--

What *I* find REALLY interesting (and maybe a little scary) is that I am personally aware of three different little start-ups that have products on the market that used the arduino for their product development, and are using that silly little $20 board to program their production ICs. Their products are simple, their design is solid, and in the one case where I got to review the code, it was really well done. maybe that's why some of the old timers get so testy. Three companies, three electronic products on the market, and not a single electronic or software engineering degree anywhere to be found.

Scream at the avalanche all you want, it's still coming strait at you.

[tyblu]

ROFL

Perfect rant! 5 stars! Three thumbs up my butt! er.. wait a tic..

[Chasm]

Sure there are no grand hardware or software innovations in the Arduino.

There is nothing new in the hardware, just a couple of datasheet circuits stitched together. Albeit after some cutting out of not necessarily needed parts like i.e. various 100nF filter caps.

I never took a look at the software.

People terrified of technology at the chips and solder and code level. They pretty much said here's the Arduino. It's warm and cozy, it's easy, and it's not at all scary.

User compatible. Plug and play. In short, they build it with a very high WAF.
That is the proof that they were artists, not engineers.

(WAF: Woman Acceptance Factor - aka will she let it stay in the living room.
Not that engineers are supposed to know to know about the concept of another sex in the first place. )

Plenty of them will write a few sketches, say that was cool, then go on to become accountants and lawyers. A few, however, will catch the spark. They'll say that was cool, but what's a PIC? an ARM? What's "C"?

I believe that's the vast majority of Arduino users. People playing, having fun, and that's totally cool.
Arduino is to electronic and software engineering as an Erector Set is to mechanical engineering.

I think along that line too.
There won't be many that want to take a closer look. - But since there are masses playing with it and thus getting exposure they would not get before there will be at lot of them in the end.

Me linking the video above was not a complete joke, using an arduino board to automatically probe for UART or JTAG interfaces on several pins is an advanced step on the way to an engineering career/vocation.

What *I* find REALLY interesting (and maybe a little scary) is that I am personally aware of three different little start-ups that have products on the market that used the arduino for their product development, and are using that silly little $20 board to program their production ICs. Their products are simple, their design is solid, and in the one case where I got to review the code, it was really well done. maybe that's why some of the old timers get so testy. Three companies, three electronic products on the market, and not a single electronic or software engineering degree anywhere to be found.

Scream at the avalanche all you want, it's still coming strait at you.

Well, it should not be necessary to use an actual arduino board in a product, unless you sell a shield. They are not bad, they are solid for what they do, but they are not state of the art either. Not even application note or datasheet level because some parts like afore mentioned filter caps have been stop lossed.

You can take the layout, rip it off for everything but the false header spacing, and don't even have to credit them because it is all in the datasheets of the used components. Actually if you take a look at those AN and datasheets you will have a more reliable product at a couple of cent cost.

I have to guess, but I say the problem is manufacturing a populated board for them.

[JohnS_AZ]

The company I mentioned is using an Arduino to program raw parts (I sold them a ZIF socket, and ended up doing an ESD audit for them), and then solder the programmed parts into their own boards which do indeed have all the bypass caps plus EOS/ESD protection.

[Mechatrommer]

hate arduino? = plain jealous! haha!
you can argue its gcc, sketch, wiring, not a big deal etc. and you forgot what purpose it is, to be able for new student to get easily into electronics, its all about education, and the rest is like mr dave said, snowball effect.

and let me tell one secret to ya all jealous people.... no matter how good your product is, without good promotion/marketing, you will not sell, the other way... no matter how crap it is you can argue to your miserable soul, but if the marketing is there, everybody will be using... and enjoying it, mostly to most people who know shit. so your choice.

to be frank, at some part, i also a bit discomfort about the ideology of "open source open hardware", but... look at the bright side.

[Lance]

hate arduino? = plain jealous! haha!
you can argue its gcc, sketch, wiring, not a big deal etc. and you forgot what purpose it is, to be able for new student to get easily into electronics, its all about education,

If you're going to learn how to do something why not learn how to do it right the first time? I'm currently figuring out how to program PICs using the Hi-Tech C compiler. I'm learning tons by having to read the documentation on how everything works.

One of the things I really hated about the microcontrollers course I took was the compiler did pretty much everything for you. I didn't learn a whole ton from that class.

As for the terminology, I just hate these made up terms. Call something what it is. We're gonna end up with a whole group of designers using these silly words once they move past the arduino.

[Bored@Work]

You tell it Brother!

Whenever I hear the fucking Arduino losers talking about their "sketches" I am inclined to ram their Arduinos up their arse, "Wriing" their arses, if you get the idea. It is a fucking program, not a fucking "sketch" for fucking's sake, written in a fucking language, that stole every-fucking-thing from C++. Hey, is C++, just with the most stupid fucking name ever invented for a fucking programming language.

The Arduino is a mediocre board, with fucking layout mistakes all over the fucking place. Some mistakes now even sold to us as an ingenious invention, like the headers not aligned, so "you can't mistakenly insert a shield the wrong way". Hah, ha, ha. Those amateurs didn't get the fucking headers aligned and now it is an ingenious invention.

Oh, did I just say "shield". Fuck. Let me be the first to ram the fucking "shields" up their arses, too. It is a daughter board, or plug-in board, not a fucking "shield".

The Arduino wouldn't have had a fucking chance in the market wouldn't fucking Maker Magazine have promoted it so heavily. Whenever these Maker potheads forget about journalistic integrity they promote the fucking Arduinao - and they often forgot about journalistic integrity. They needed to sell that thing in their Maker Shed, and that's what they did by acclaiming every fucking blinking LED on a fucking Arduino, and writing one Arduino product placement article after the other.

The Arduino, made by potheads for potheads, promoted by potheads.

[cybergibbons]

I find the vitriol of the Arduino haters quite amusing at times. Why has it become so popular? Partially because it is open source, allowing many people to manufacture boards, derivatives, shields, add-ons and software. Yes, it could have been done without open source, but why not formalise the freedom to share and improve upon something?

If you're going to learn how to do something why not learn how to do it right the first time? I'm currently figuring out how to program PICs using the Hi-Tech C compiler. I'm learning tons by having to read the documentation on how everything works.

Why are you not using ASM if you want to do it right the first time? They are just layers of abstraction - ASM, C++, Wiring. It makes using the Arduino so simple that someone totally new to electronics and programming can get a project running in a day. What's wrong with that? Why do they need to know how to do it properly?

[Mechatrommer]

If you're going to learn how to do something why not learn how to do it right the first time? I'm currently figuring out how to program PICs using the Hi-Tech C compiler. I'm learning tons by having to read the documentation on how everything works.

Why are you not using ASM if you want to do it right the first time? They are just layers of abstraction - ASM, C++, Wiring. It makes using the Arduino so simple that someone totally new to electronics and programming can get a project running in a day. What's wrong with that? Why do they need to know how to do it properly?

why are you not designing mcu from transistors, logic gates etc from the first time? if you want into the real deal of electronics? why dont you want to learn how to manufacture p or n-channel material at home? so a bunch of hobbiest from around the globe can start the hobby from p & n-channel?

Hey, is C++, just with the most stupid fucking name ever invented for a fucking programming language.

you are lost in the midst of whatever era you are living in. its historic reason that A,B,C programming language were developed for a long time now.

well, simple. if you think you are good enough and arduino is sux with its stupid name. why dont you invent something thats it so marvelous for the generation to benefit.
all i can see is a child complaining to his friend about how sux his father is.

[TheWelly888]

Open source hardware - that reminds me of the Wintel PC that so many of us use today originated from the fact that IBM made their first PC hardware open source thus allowing clones to enter the market and ensuring dominace.

Well we know just crap the PC is today, the worst pieces of engineering ( or rather non-engineering ) kludge in widespread use today!  

[Mechatrommer]

Well we know just crap the PC is today, the worst pieces of engineering ( or rather non-engineering ) kludge in widespread use today! 

young people are lost of what engineering is all about, they understand it as a series of formalized mathematical equation, or theoritical explanation that they swore by it to the death. they simply forgot the basic true form/purpose of engineering itself... "solving human being problem", kludge or not kludge.
yet people complain about how crap it is, yet they used it to complain it in eevblog and do whatever they like. how "disthankfull"

Open source hardware - that reminds me of the Wintel PC that so many of us use today originated from the fact that IBM made their first PC hardware open source thus allowing clones to enter the market and ensuring dominace.

people will always complain, open source or not, dominance or not. because thats the nature of human being, mostly. they want to prove their idea that they are the only one who is right and they loved to create hot gossip. people complain microsoft want to dominate everything (because they are not open source), and funny people will complain as well, if its about the open source. and more funny, for no particular concrete reason.

more knowledgable people will not complain, they do it. only less knowledgable that is keep complaining, and later... asking, this kind of people are simply... lost.

[johnboxall]

You tell it Brother!

Whenever I hear the fucking Arduino losers talking about their "sketches" I am inclined to ram their Arduinos up their arse, "Wriing" their arses, if you get the idea. It is a fucking program, not a fucking "sketch" for fucking's sake, written in a fucking language, that stole every-fucking-thing from C++. Hey, is C++, just with the most stupid fucking name ever invented for a fucking programming language.

The Arduino is a mediocre board, with fucking layout mistakes all over the fucking place. Some mistakes now even sold to us as an ingenious invention, like the headers not aligned, so "you can't mistakenly insert a shield the wrong way". Hah, ha, ha. Those amateurs didn't get the fucking headers aligned and now it is an ingenious invention.

Oh, did I just say "shield". Fuck. Let me be the first to ram the fucking "shields" up their arses, too. It is a daughter board, or plug-in board, not a fucking "shield".

The Arduino wouldn't have had a fucking chance in the market wouldn't fucking Maker Magazine have promoted it so heavily. Whenever these Maker potheads forget about journalistic integrity they promote the fucking Arduinao - and they often forgot about journalistic integrity. They needed to sell that thing in their Maker Shed, and that's what they did by acclaiming every fucking blinking LED on a fucking Arduino, and writing one Arduino product placement article after the other.

The Arduino, made by potheads for potheads, promoted by potheads.

Hi Boredatwork!

It's another fucking Arduino loser here. I just wanted to take a couple of minutes away from the bong to put in my five cents' worth. Although the Arduino team's naming conventions and commercial aspirations of a certain publisher seem to agitate you, there is a purpose to all this pothead stuff: (from http://arduino.cc)

"Arduino is an open-source electronics prototyping platform based on flexible, easy-to-use hardware and software. It's intended for artists, designers, hobbyists, and anyone interested in creating interactive objects or environments".

My interpretation of this is that the Arduino system gives non-engineering people an easy entry into a technical world that may have been generally inaccessible. Yes, the names are silly, and yes it wasn't the first of anything or some great leap of technology, but it does what it set out to do.

One of the benefits of this system is that there are quite a few people that move on, and head off into more conventional electronics areas as they want to know more, and have built up confidence with their success in building Arduino-based projects to take on further study. And some of them go on to university/college and study electrical engineering and so on. This cannot be a bad thing. After helping out and observing Arduino classes, it is great to see people of all ages (including professionals in other disciplines) make something work in just a few hours. This is what it is all about.

As more levels of technology become more accessible, the lines between professional and amateur and tinkerer and experimenter are going to blur. Just like they did with computers in the 1980s. It is just a fact of life. At the end of the day, if you don't like it - relax, just ignore it. I don't like rugby league, but I don't yell up and down and curse about it. I just move on.

[cybergibbons]

Open source hardware - that reminds me of the Wintel PC that so many of us use today originated from the fact that IBM made their first PC hardware open source thus allowing clones to enter the market and ensuring dominace.

Well we know just crap the PC is today, the worst pieces of engineering ( or rather non-engineering ) kludge in widespread use today!  

I'm not sure the concept of open source existed when the first IBM machines were made. They did make their standards open so that other manufacturers could interface to their hardware. Apple hardware is largely the same though - they use a different processor architecture and interfaces that are largely documented and open, but as a system it is closed. But then, in the past, Apple used their legal might to quash anyone trying to clone their hardware.

Apple now use Intel architecture as well. They would be able to do this if it weren't for the open standards in use. They rely largely on aesthetics and OS to sell their product.

Windows is very much closed source, but has documented interfaces.

Mac OS X is a blend of closed and open source, with the core parts being open source.

It's important to note that some open interfaces doesn't mean a project is open source, they are very different.

So your post implies some form of causal link between opening up the design of something, and that design being bad. I'm not sure you can really make that link, especially if you are contrasting to Apple.

[Zad]

There are two reasons Arduino got where it is. Firstly, it got big coverage in Make magazine (owned by O'Reilly). Secondly, the software. It is free, moderately easy to use and - most importantly - easy to install, without pages of licensing to go through, web registration and all the rest. Most pro software makes you jump through hoops to get a basic multi-GB installation up and running, and thats before you have to run through the patches. It is also marketed at the arts market, which is orders of magnitude bigger than the home engineering market.

There was no such programming language as A by the way. It started as BCPL (Basic Combined Programming Language) this was stripped down to its essentials and became purely B. C evolved from this. There was discussion as to whether the successor would be called D or P (from BCPL) but in the end C++ (essentially C+1) emerged. C# (misleadingly called C sharp) is purely a concatenation of two "++" signs above each other.

[Mechatrommer]

There was no such programming language as A by the way.

APL aka A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)... 20 years older than me. maybe its not a continuation to B, but who knows? they got the idea of that silly "B" (if you want to call it silly!) from the earlier "A", i cannot say i'm the expert in the history, somehow i got lost too, but at least, i'm not complaining.

[ajcrm125]

>>The Arduino rode the new Hacker/Maker movement on the back of some bootstrap support from the creative arts industries.

That's it right there...

[Time]

I don't have extensive micro experience but I am picking it up slowly.  I am an EE by profession but the only programming that I might do is all math stuff on the computer.  My microcontroller courses were all done in assembly and that was years ago.  I have experience with C but I am certainly no expert.  So speaking with medium experience, I don't really have any interest in the Arduino mainly due to the lack of availability of the atmega chips. I really just want a chip programmer where I can program the chip and put it into my own nice neat and efficient designs.

I see all these projects around about people doing so much stuff with the arduino and than you see pictures and its this elaborate mess with wires coming out of this big blue board and its all shoved in a box like a final design.  This just blows my mind.  I would atleast take the time to simply use the arduino as a programming platform and put the chip onto a PCB or etched board and share the design as atmega based design!  I feel like its more like a Playschool brand mock up microcontroller for toddlers to learn on.

p.s.  I don't get the pothead reference?

[XynxNet]

•  I feel like its more like a Playschool brand mock up microcontroller for toddlers to learn on.

Not very nicely said, but I think thats exactly what it wants to be, an affordable tool for education and beginners and amateurs, who otherwise would not be able to use microcontrollers for their projectidears.

In my opinion Arduino does that job wonderfully. It is cheap, easy to get as a preasembled module, easy to use and has a large community with lots of designs you can build or buy as daughterboards. I dont mind if they call programs an daughterboards other names. Why not, if that makes it more acceptable to users who aren't  strongly technical interested.

[Lance]

p.s.  I don't get the pothead reference?

I think it's something along the lines of potheads are lazy, and people who use arduinos are lazy. Therefore people who use the arduino are potheads.

•   I feel like its more like a Playschool brand mock up microcontroller for toddlers to learn on.

Not very nicely said, but I think thats exactly what it wants to be, an affordable tool for education and beginners and amateurs, who otherwise would not be able to use microcontrollers for their projectidears.

In my opinion Arduino does that job wonderfully. It is cheap, easy to get as a preasembled module, easy to use and has a large community with lots of designs you can build or buy as daughterboards. I dont mind if they call programs an daughterboards other names. Why not, if that makes it more acceptable to users who aren't  strongly technical interested.

It does do that job decently well. I think it's just the silly terminology that folks despise more than the concept. In response to this:

If you're going to learn how to do something why not learn how to do it right the first time? I'm currently figuring out how to program PICs using the Hi-Tech C compiler. I'm learning tons by having to read the documentation on how everything works.

Why are you not using ASM if you want to do it right the first time? They are just layers of abstraction - ASM, C++, Wiring. It makes using the Arduino so simple that someone totally new to electronics and programming can get a project running in a day. What's wrong with that? Why do they need to know how to do it properly?

why are you not designing mcu from transistors, logic gates etc from the first time? if you want into the real deal of electronics? why dont you want to learn how to manufacture p or n-channel material at home? so a bunch of hobbiest from around the globe can start the hobby from p & n-channel?

I see the validity of your argument. To keep from sounding like a complete ponce I would then have to say "doing it right", would be using an industry accepted standard. Assembly and C both fit into that. As for making PN material, I don't have the tools, and school keeps me pretty busy.

[JohnS_AZ]

I feel like its more like a Playschool brand mock up microcontroller for toddlers to learn on.

At the level of most Arduino users I'd have to agree, and I think that's great!

 I would at least take the time to simply use the arduino as a programming platform and put the chip onto a PCB or etched board

I'm working on a couple of projects that do exactly that; Program the device on the Arduino and then move the chip to the target board (that I plan on selling). I'm not THAT unique, so I have to presume that there are plenty of other folks out there developing the same sorts of products and kits. Heck, even Dave says that he's working on an Arduino project.

So why use the Arduino when there are so many better options? Easy ... because there are a COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND existing users out there. I would bet that right now there are more people who own Arduinos than own PicKits. So, stand pat on some engineering "ideal"? or aim at the masses of people who are obviously willing to buy? For me, I'm going to gravitate toward the folks with their wallets open.