Searching for a HP 1630 HP 1631 inverse assembler files.

[Andy Watson]

Check the file name that you have provided to the HPdir program. It is missing the first number "10304-". Perhaps it needs escaping (I'm not a windows user).

[gslick]

I had long file names in the .zip file. Hpdir didn't seem to like using the long names so I simply renamed the files with short names to use with hpdir.

EDIT: It appears that in general using longer file names isn't a problem with hpdir, but some characters in the file name might cause problems. Removing the dash character from the file name solves the problem.

C:\HPDir\Hpdir.exe -list 10304-13012.hpi
Error: Can't open file (Msus "10304-13012.hpi")

copy 10304-13012.hpi 1030413012.hpi
        1 file(s) copied.

C:\HPDir\Hpdir.exe -list 1030413012.hpi
                           SYS  FILE   NUMBER   RECORD     MODIFIED    PUB OPEN
FILE NAME             LEV TYPE  TYPE  RECORDS   LENGTH DATE       TIME ACC STAT
===================== === ==== ===== ======== ======== =============== === ====
COPYFILEx               1 98X6 #fffe       30      256 15-Aug-85 16:20
I8085IPi                1 98X6 #fffe        9      256 13-Jun-84 07:41

274176 of 284160 bytes free.

[MarkL]

I said, earlier in this thread:

EDIT:  I sent email to the author of the page that mentions FORMAT.EXE, and also pointed them here.  I'll share if I get a response.

I received a reply from this person yesterday.  In short, they read it somewhere in an HP publication and they don't have the FORMAT.EXE utility to convert .R files to 1631D XX format.

Another dead end.  Sorry, folks.

[MarkL]

I looked at the disk images provided by gslick (thanks, gslick!).

One thing I noticed is that the COPYFILE utility on those disks is also in XX format.  So, it would seem that XX format for the 1631D is not only for inverse assembler files, but it's really a generalized mechanism for loading executables,  or a "plug-in" (which might be more accurate in today's parlance).

So the .R file probably gets converted and linked specifically for the 1631D and its processor.  It also means that utility we seek *might* also be a plug-in that converts .R to XX.  I think this is less likely, but wanted to put the possibility out there in case anyone ever stumbles across it.

[gslick]

Does anyone know if the inverse assemblers are executed by some sort of interpreter on the logic analyzers, or directly in native code?

The 1630 series are based on a 6809 CPU while the 16500 series are based on a 68000 series CPU so if the inverse assemblers are executed directly as native code on the logic analyzer CPU the code would obviously have to be different.

If  the inverse assemblers are executed by some sort of interpreter on the logic analyzers the code could be basically the same between the various series of analyzers.

The 16700 series are based on a PA-RISC CPU and can use the same inverse assemblers as the 16500 series.

[MarkL]

I put COPYFILE and I8085 through a 6809 disassembler.  I'm not fluent in 6809 ASM, but COPYFILE makes an amount of sense and I8085 is junk.

So, a reasonable conclusion is that inverse assembler is some kind of bytecode for an interpreter, which had been mentioned before.  Also, since a user can write an inverse assembler, it would be reasonable to expect a layer of isolation between whatever code the user wrote and the innards of the instrument.

So, gslick, do you think we could use a .R to bytecode converter for one of the other LAs?  Do you have a I8085 sitting around for a 16500 to compare against the 163x one?

[gslick]

Do you have a I8085 sitting around for a 16500 to compare against the 163x one?

Attached are images of an original HP 3.5-inch floppy part number 10304-13016 containing an 8085 Inverse Assembler for use with HP 1650A, HP 1651A and HP 16510A.

-Glen

DISK DIRECTORY                                                                 

DOS Filename  Date    Time     Bytes   Description
____________  _______ ________ _______ ________________________________

C8085_I       28Sep87  0:00:00    4352 8085 CONFIG FOR INTERFACE    2_0
C8085_P       28Sep87  0:00:00    3840 8085 CONFIG FOR GP PROBES    2_0
I8085_IP      25Sep87 11:09:35    5120 8085 INVERSE ASSEMBLER       1_0


                           SYS  FILE   NUMBER   RECORD     MODIFIED    PUB OPEN
FILE NAME             LEV TYPE  TYPE  RECORDS   LENGTH DATE       TIME ACC STAT
===================== === ==== ===== ======== ======== =============== === ====
I8085_IP                1 98X6 #c302       20      256 25-Sep-87 11:09
C8085_I                 1 98X6 #c120       17      256 28-Sep-87 00:00
C8085_P                 1 98X6 #c120       15      256 28-Sep-87 00:00

800768 of 814080 bytes free.

[AndersG]

I get the same error with hpdir v 2.03. Presumably the .hpi files are LIF files. IMD is a different format. You can use that format to put the files onto a diskette. The HPI files seem to be straight LIF files though. Let me put those on an SD card and try reading on my analyser.

[Orange]

I used ImageDisk V1.18 to create the floppy. Use a DD floppy, running DOS (Win98).
Checked on my HP9122C with a HP1630A :-)

The HPdir application V2.03 does not work, and gives the error, even after renaming the files to a shorter one.

[gslick]

I get the same error with hpdir v 2.03. Presumably the .hpi files are LIF files. IMD is a different format. You can use that format to put the files onto a diskette. The HPI files seem to be straight LIF files though. Let me put those on an SD card and try reading on my analyser.

The .IMD files are ImageDisk files created by reading the floppies in a floppy drive directly on a PC.
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm

The first .ZIP file HP1630-10304-10342.zip also contained .HPI files created by reading the floppies in an HP 9121D floppy drive using HPDir -dup

The second .ZIP file 10304-13016.zip also contained a .DSK file created by using IMDU to dump the .IMD file into raw binary sector format. I forget if that .DSK file would be exactly the same as an .HPI file created by reading the floppies in an HP 9121D floppy drive using HPDir -dup, or maybe there are extra spare sector tracks at the end of the floppy which HPDir (or actually the 9121D drive) would ignore. In any case HPDir should also work with the .DSK file.

[gslick]

The HPdir application V2.03 does not work, and gives the error, even after renaming the files to a shorter one.

Hmm, works fine for me...

C:\tmp\16500A-Disks>dir
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 5ED5-8226

 Directory of C:\tmp\16500A-Disks

05/29/2017  06:35 AM    <DIR>          .
05/29/2017  06:35 AM    <DIR>          ..
12/28/2014  01:24 PM           819,200 10304-13016-SN498.DSK
12/28/2014  01:24 PM            22,126 10304-13016-SN498.IMD
12/28/2014  03:06 PM           158,693 10304-13016-SN498.JPG
05/28/2017  02:10 PM               925 10304-13016-SN498.TXT
05/28/2017  02:11 PM           169,653 10304-13016.zip
               5 File(s)      1,170,597 bytes

C:\tmp\16500A-Disks>copy 10304-13016-SN498.DSK 10304.HPI
        1 file(s) copied.

C:\tmp\16500A-Disks>c:\tmp\hpdir\hpdir -v
2.03 (2009/12/11)

HPDir Copyright (c) 2008 Ansgar Kueckes

This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.

This software is free for non-commercial use, and you are welcome to
redistribute it under certain conditions. Type 'HPDir -license' for details.

C:\tmp\16500A-Disks>c:\tmp\hpdir\hpdir -list 10304.HPI
                           SYS  FILE   NUMBER   RECORD     MODIFIED    PUB OPEN
FILE NAME             LEV TYPE  TYPE  RECORDS   LENGTH DATE       TIME ACC STAT
===================== === ==== ===== ======== ======== =============== === ====
I8085_IP                1 98X6 #c302       20      256 25-Sep-87 11:09
C8085_I                 1 98X6 #c120       17      256 28-Sep-87 00:00
C8085_P                 1 98X6 #c120       15      256 28-Sep-87 00:00

800768 of 814080 bytes free.

C:\tmp\16500A-Disks>c:\tmp\hpdir\hpdir -extract 10304.HPI I8085_IP
record 19 (100%)
C:\tmp\16500A-Disks>dir
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 5ED5-8226

 Directory of C:\tmp\16500A-Disks

05/29/2017  06:36 AM    <DIR>          .
05/29/2017  06:36 AM    <DIR>          ..
12/28/2014  01:24 PM           819,200 10304-13016-SN498.DSK
12/28/2014  01:24 PM            22,126 10304-13016-SN498.IMD
12/28/2014  03:06 PM           158,693 10304-13016-SN498.JPG
05/28/2017  02:10 PM               925 10304-13016-SN498.TXT
05/28/2017  02:11 PM           169,653 10304-13016.zip
12/28/2014  01:24 PM           819,200 10304.HPI
05/29/2017  06:36 AM             5,120 I8085_IP.#c302
               7 File(s)      1,994,917 bytes

[MarkL]

Do you have a I8085 sitting around for a 16500 to compare against the 163x one?

Attached are images of an original HP 3.5-inch floppy part number 10304-13016 containing an 8085 Inverse Assembler for use with HP 1650A, HP 1651A and HP 16510A.

-Glen

Thanks, Glen.

It looks to me that the inverse assembler I8085_IP on that disk image is in .R format.  This is not surprising, since we know that IALDOWN just passes the .R file to the 1650 for further processing when using RS232 instead of a disk.

Because the same disk covers the 16500, the 16500 therefore uses the same .R format.  I was hoping we might get lucky and it would be more like what the 163x would need.


On the formatting issues that people are encountering with HPdir, I used the linux lifutils from here and it works fine:

  http://www.hpcc.org/datafile/hpil/lif_utils.html

There's another version floating around that's newer, lifutils-1.7.6, but that was having trouble extracting files.

[AndersG]

Indeed, HPDir works just fine if you shorten the filename to 8.3. Copied it to HPDisk and renamed to lifdata.bin and I could load the inverse assembler just fine. I guess there are docs somewhere on how to connect the pods?

[MarkL]

Indeed, HPDir works just fine if you shorten the filename to 8.3. Copied it to HPDisk and renamed to lifdata.bin and I could load the inverse assembler just fine. I guess there are docs somewhere on how to connect the pods?

What model LA did you load it onto?

[Orange]

Indeed, HPDir works just fine if you shorten the filename to 8.3. Copied it to HPDisk and renamed to lifdata.bin and I could load the inverse assembler just fine. I guess there are docs somewhere on how to connect the pods?

I found the bug in HPdir. If you do a -list, HPDir opens the file for writing.
If your file is read-only marked it will give you this error !

 

[AndersG]

What model LA did you load it onto?

HP 1630D, had no way to test further though.

[MarkL]

What model LA did you load it onto?

HP 1630D, had no way to test further though.

Just to be clear about this, did you load the version that Glen just posted for the 1650/16500 (10304-13016), or did you load the one he posted a few days ago for the 1630 (10304-13012)?

If you loaded the one for the 1650/16500, it means the 1630 can read the .R format in addition to XX format.  I wouldn't have expected that to be the case, but I'll take it since it may provide the solution.

[AndersG]

It was 10304-13012.hpi. With 10304-13016-SN498.DSK it lists the files as type "unknown" and refuses to load them.

[jpham]

Is it possible for me to get your 6502 inverse assembler?  I'm in a middle of a debugging
and would be great to use your 6502 inverse assembler

[AndersG]

In what format? Would the 1630 disk image (lif) file work?

[TerraHertz]

You guys might be interested in this list of HP 1630G inverse assemblers I have on HP LIF floppy:
     http://everist.org/NobLog/20190106_hacked_appleII.htm#inv

I'm not yet sure how I'm going to get those files off the old LIF floppies and to a PC. But I'm advised it's not too hard and have been given some advice on how.  We'll see how it goes.

Files list attached. It's a photoshopped collage of several screen photos from my 1630G, running through the disk contents.

[MarkL]

Youu guys might be interested in this list of HP 1630G inverse assemblers I have on HP LIF floppy:
...
I'm not yet sure how I'm going to get those files off the old LIF floppies and to a PC. But I'm advised it's not too hard and have been given some advice on how.  We'll see how it goes.

A great collection!  Bring it on!

Even if you only get so far as a binary image of the entire floppies, I'm sure as a group we would be able to decode the individual LIF entries from there.

[harrimansat]

Is easy to read those discs if you have a Windows based PC with floppy Reader. Please make a image and post it!
Thanks

[TerraHertz]

Please feel free to recommend specific methods of doing so. URLs to utilities known to work, and your experience with them.
I want something that just works, that I don't have to mess with for days/months. Since I have other more urgent projects and don't want to get bogged down in floppy file structure dissection.

I have a good variety of old PC floppy drives, but one slight complication is I only have WinXP machines.

Ideally there's two parts to this. One is to grab an image of the floppy (archived on PC), and be able to duplicate it. So I and anyone else can write fresh copies for the 1630.
Secondly, to get the files extracted on the PC, for examination.  Not so important to me.

[MarkL]

Please feel free to recommend specific methods of doing so. URLs to utilities known to work, and your experience with them.
I want something that just works, that I don't have to mess with for days/months. Since I have other more urgent projects and don't want to get bogged down in floppy file structure dissection.

I have a good variety of old PC floppy drives, but one slight complication is I only have WinXP machines.

Ideally there's two parts to this. One is to grab an image of the floppy (archived on PC), and be able to duplicate it. So I and anyone else can write fresh copies for the 1630.
Secondly, to get the files extracted on the PC, for examination.  Not so important to me.

The biggest problem is the non-standard low-level formats HP used on the floppies, such as a different sector size (256 vs. 512).  It needs a program that knows how to get at the floppy controller hardware either directly or via the BIOS.

I can't say that I've used it (I'm not a windows user), but here's a utility which satisfies your requirement to make an image and then be able to re-create it, for just about any old HP format:

  http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/fdio/

There's an excruciating amount of detail on floppy formatting down to the bit level, which makes me believe the author knows what they're talking about.

From a console window, it should be as simple as:

  fdio.exe -dup a: <image_file>

If you can post the images, I will extract the LIF files so that they (hopefully) can be loaded into a 163x series via the GPIB port.  Thanks!

EDIT: Reading more of the README, it does say that for XP you need to install the supplied raw driver, FDRAWCMD.  So it's a little bit more to do, but still pretty simple.