Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 809737 times)

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Online nctnico

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Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 01:34:04 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Rich,
I have both the DPO2024 from Tek and the R&S RTB2004. I think they are both decent scopes. The R&S benefits from newer chips that weren't around when the Tek was designed or the Keysight for that matter. So you guys got to market first and did a really good job on this scope, it really is a pleasure to use and own.

I think we are getting to the point where someone in the market for a 2 to 3k buck scope will get all the bells and whistles. The serial decoding, the mem, etc. because the cheap scope makers will force that to happen. Honestly I wouldn't pay $8k for this but at $3500 to $4k you own the market right now.

Rob
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.

Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.

Manufacturers depend on grading scopes so they can offer viability to customers. You get a scope for $1k because the manufacturer can implement a software change an make a profit. So how would you feel if you put the time, effort and money into an algorithm that someone hacked and gave away for free? I've had that done to me, treat manufacturers with some dignity and respect.

That goes for you too Dave. I know you're honest in your YT's, carry it over to the manufacturers.
 

Online nctnico

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Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.
This has been debated to death already so let's not start again because there is way more to it than your black&white view.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline ruairi

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I think the current 2000X 2 channel pricing is in the $1000 territory, I saw some new units being sold by Fry's for $950 (local in store pick only), so maybe Keysight is getting rid of the 2000X inventory.

No, just Frys clearing their entire Keysight inventory.
 

Offline coppice

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Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.
So you think that once you have paid for something and taken possession, its still not really yours? You are going to have a hard sell trying to convince many people of what you said there. It flies in the face of most definitions of what ownership means. Even most of the people in companies which rely on this kind of product segmentation regard it as more as a cat and mouse game than stealing - and their incomes rely on it. :)

How far do you take this thinking? If I buy a 200HP car, and get the engine remapped to produce a 300HP car, have I stolen the other 100HP of performance? Most people think I am just tearing up the warranty.
 

Offline Robaroni

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I make a scope with different options, one costs $10k and the other one costs $1k, the only difference is firmware. Right, it's not black and white, so point me to the other views.

People will always attempt to justify their transgression regardless how fragile those justifications are.




 

Offline Robaroni

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 "Even most of the people in companies which rely on this kind of product segmentation regard it as more as a cat and mouse game than stealing - and their incomes rely on it."


This is called anecdotal fallacy. My uncle Louie smoked and drank his whole life and lived to be 105. "Most of the people"? Who?

"Cat and mouse game" ? So you're saying the manufacturer doesn't want you to steal their software? That's what I said, you're making my case for me!


"How far do you take this thinking? If I buy a 200HP car, and get the engine remapped to produce a 300HP car, have I stolen the other 100HP of performance? Most people think I am just tearing up the warranty."

Depends, does the manufacturer sell a 300HP version for more money and did you remap it with their firmware edition? Yes? Then you're stealing their firmware.
It gets worse, if you post it on YT like Dave did, it's called theft of Intellectual Properties and that YT can be used against you in court.

"Most  people think it's just tearing up the warranty". Again, who? And does the belief that "most people" condone it make it justifiable?
What? Honesty is a product of popularity?


« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 03:22:21 pm by Robaroni »
 

Offline Amazing

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Edit: decided I rather not get involved in this argument.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 03:49:21 pm by Amazing »
 

Offline coppice

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Once you buy a piece of hardware, it is yours to do with as you please.   :horse:
More accurately if you buy a piece of equipment, and don't agree to any licence conditions that say you don't really fully own the equipment, its yours to do with as you please. Many laws support this view, such as the ones supporting the right to reverse engineer. One or two, like the DMCA in the US, fly against it in some juristictions. Some instruments do come with licence agreements, such as the ones running Windows. Most don't.
 

Offline mtdoc

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I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004.  As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.

It remains to be seen if the market will support their current full pricing for the options - but without those it is clearly cost competitive with other current offerings - though that may be changing as other manufacturers update their mid range scopes.

The whole upgrade hack of hardware you own had been beat to death on this forum but the bottom line is that it is not illegal to do so.  Ethics becomes a matter of opinion but I believe the majority agree that if I buy a piece of hardware (and do not sign a user agreement) I full own it and am free to do with it what I want.

Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing.  For the American and European manufacturers it is not so clear.  Reading between the lines of some of Daniel from Keysight's posts re their new line of low end scopes - Keysight may be coming around to the Chinese point of view.  IMO that's a smart move and will only serve to increase their market penetration.  They surely realize that institutional/commercial buyers will be paying full price for fully optioned scopes regardless and that giving tacit approval to hacking by hobbyists and home use professionals they are ultimately increasing their market share in the institutional/commercial professional environment. It's cheap marketing.

As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line.  Perhaps that will change.  I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...
 

Offline exe

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I could easily write, e.g., a serial decoder and give it away, but I cannot because software is locked. Although, I hope, their ethernet or USB protocol is not encrypted and I can try writing a PC software to do so.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.
I see your point and I'll be the first to admit the option pricing, on any Tek/Keysight/R&S/LeCroy scope, can sometimes be hard to stomach, especially for a hobbyist. 

But one thing people might be missing is we also offer bundle packages.  RTB-PK1 includes all the decode options (I2C, SPI, RS232, CAN, LIN), history/segmented mode (with 160Mpts of memory) and the AWG/PatGen for $1,260.  The 2000x app bundle is $1,250.  And keep in mind things that the 2000x charges for (e.g. Ethernet, etc) are standard on the RTB2000.  And this is before we look at things like MSO.  On the RTB2000 you can use both digital and analog channels for decode.  You get 2x the number of digital channels (16 vs. 8) and the price is basically the same ($746 vs. $770).  If we look at Tek, the DPO2000's app bundle is less ($750) but you also get less (no history/segmented, no AWG, etc).  The MSO for it varies some, but even at the cheapest point it is ~$600.  Pretty comparable.

So are our options expensive?  Maybe.  But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing.  And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price. 

-Rich
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004.  As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.
:-+

As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line.  Perhaps that will change.  I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...
No ulterior motives - we honestly wanted to get the product in to the hands of early adopters.  And for those early adopters we have some other cool ideas planned - stay tuned  ;D

With respect to the hacking - not my place to bless or not bless the activity, but as you said, you own the equipment.  Each person/company will make their own decisions based on that.

-Rich
 
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Offline mtdoc

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I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004.  As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.
:-+

As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line.  Perhaps that will change.  I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...
No ulterior motives - we honestly wanted to get the product in to the hands of early adopters.  And for those early adopters we have some other cool ideas planned - stay tuned  ;D

With respect to the hacking - not my place to bless or not bless the activity, but as you said, you own the equipment.  Each person/company will make their own decisions based on that.

-Rich

 :-+  It's great to see R&S fully engaged with hobbyists and home-use professionals.
 
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Offline Hydron

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Rich, is there anything being looked at to make these (expensive for hobbyists, as you admit) decode options better? I'm mainly thinking of the bi-directional UART/SPI decode without using both decode slots, which can be a bit limiting.

This is not a dig at the RTB2k - it's clear that every brand has their advantages (e.g. KS for faster and more consistent update rate, better math options, R&S for screen size, resolution and memory depth) and I'm very happy with my launch offer unit, especially with the mention that more goodies may be yet to come!
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Rich, is there anything being looked at to make these (expensive for hobbyists, as you admit) decode options better? I'm mainly thinking of the bi-directional UART/SPI decode without using both decode slots, which can be a bit limiting.

This is not a dig at the RTB2k - it's clear that every brand has their advantages (e.g. KS for faster and more consistent update rate, better math options, R&S for screen size, resolution and memory depth) and I'm very happy with my launch offer unit, especially with the mention that more goodies may be yet to come!
Hi Hydron - there are things being looked at, but it isn't something I can promise at this point for the RTB2000.  But the excellent feedback from folks like you, Robaroni, MikesElectricStuff, MJLorton, WattCircuit, etc, etc (sorry I am forgetting many people) has been very helpful and will certainly help shape future enhancements for the RTB and other products.

-Rich
 

Online nctnico

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So are our options expensive?  Maybe.  But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing.  And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price. 
But now you are putting a B brand Hameg scope next to A brand scopes from Keysight, Tektronix & Lecroy and try to justify the very high price. But on what is that based??? For example: If you buy the MSO option for Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix (*) you get a well built probe and not a flimsy hobby-Bob ribbon cable. Also Keysight (>3000 series), Lecroy and Tektronix have a large portfolio with probing solutions. For example: a couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix scope + current probe for a customer where the current probe was more expensive than the scope itself. And lets not forget to look east and see what the Asian TE brands are coming up with nowadays.

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

* For completeness: also GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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So are our options expensive?  Maybe.  But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing.  And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price. 
But now you are putting a B brand Hameg scope next to A brand scopes from Keysight, Tektronix & Lecroy and try to justify the very high price. But on what is that based??? For example: If you buy the MSO option for Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix (*) you get a well built probe and not a flimsy hobby-Bob ribbon cable. Also Keysight (>3000 series), Lecroy and Tektronix have a large portfolio with probing solutions. For example: a couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix scope + current probe for a customer where the current probe was more expensive than the scope itself. And lets not forget to look east and see what the Asian TE brands are coming up with nowadays.

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

* For completeness: also GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent.
*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about.  R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP.  The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc.  Is the Hameg team involved?  Yep.  But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world). 

And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them.  But they aren't innovators.  You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation.  R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc.  I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too.  All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands").  Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices.  But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).

So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads  :-DD

*Off my soapbox.*

-Rich
 

Online nctnico

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Well every manufacturer claims to 'be the first' with something like they invented the wheel. A lot of wheels have been invented over the decades! Besides that it is not like innovation only happens at A-brand companies. Look at how GW Instek and Siglent leverage new FPGA technology in their products.

But in the end what counts is what you get for your money TODAY. If you want to charge the same like current Keysight & Tektronix offerings it has to be just as polished and that is what is missing on the RTB2000.

edit: by playing the troll card you just admit I'm right.  :box:
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 07:12:06 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline mtdoc

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If you want to charge the same like current Keysight & Tektronix offerings it has to be just as polished and that is what is missing on the RTB2000.

That is a matter of opinion of course. :box:

Current Tektronix offerings in this category have some serious shortcomings IMHO.  Current Keysight offerings have some advantages but also some shortcomings as has been pointed out by several people.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 07:12:18 pm by mtdoc »
 

Online PA0PBZ

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Current Tektronix offerings in this category have some serious shortcomings IMHO.  Current Keysight offerings have some advantages but also some shortcomings as has been pointed out by several people.

Exactly, modern DSO/MSO's have so many functions that comparing them without specifying needs is almost impossible, and each of the brands/models will fit someone's needs.
Market will eventually show us what brands will fill most of the needs, like it has always been.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Offline tautech

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Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing. 
Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent.  :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.

The recent release of the X-E is another example of Siglent's reluctance to widespread hacking.
The KS 1kX had just been released and Dave promptly sniffed the jtag to see what was possible with it.
The X-E was to be released in 70, 100 and 200 MHz versions, one watch of what Dave did on his teardown and all X-E's were then released as only 200 MHz models.

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Online nctnico

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Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing. 
Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent.  :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.
But you have to admit it does help sales a lot! If Siglent was really making an effort to close the holes in the SSA3000 and SDG2000 they would have done it by now.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tautech

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Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing. 
Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent.  :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.
But you have to admit it does help sales a lot! If Siglent was really making an effort to close the holes in the SSA3000 and SDG2000 they would have done it by now.
Those 2 series ^ are exactly the ones that have had a few attempts to close the gate.
Very few of my sales are to customers that want or have the need to hack them AFAIK.
I don't have a problem if owners want to hack stuff...........how on earth would you stop them anyway.  :-//
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