new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[EEVblog]

Or mount them on their side  (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it 

Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

No, it's about how the cap is coupled to the PCB and how the vibrational waves work.

[EEVblog]

Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?

It was worse than anti-static foam for the particular drop tests I did on them. (Low mass PCB).
Totally dependent upon the type and force of impact and the results needed.

[EEVblog]

Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

On a cable it's called the triboelectirc effect and it is a different mechanism.

[pm.llb]

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.

[EEVblog]

I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector

No, as that would be the triboelectric effect which is a frictional based mechanism. Practically impossible for that be to be a problem on a BNC with a vibration coupling.

[kaz911]

This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).

Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

I would put it the other way around in that it's no way to treat your customers!

What is the logic in the only the North Americans having the benefit of the RTB2K-COM4 package?

It's like sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world and I am not sure that it was anything to do with the distributors. I do not think all the other distributors in the rest of the world said "no we do not want the easy business".

I suspect it's R & S giving massive discount support to the US distributors and none for anyone else.

Not that I am bitter or anything.

Countries outside of the US often gets the finger treatment on test gear prices.  Yes we pay duty + VAT - but due to less competition in EU the prices are a lot higher even taking duty and VAT into account.

So most of my company's gear is bought in the US. I refuse to pay 30-50% Tektronix EU tax (excl VAT/Duty) or similar over the US prices. If SRP excl. Duty & VAT was the same - I would buy locally. Keysight is getting better than it used to be. But I do always double check their US prices vs UK prices. There is no UK Import duty on Scopes - only VAT. 2nd hand prices are also not super in the EU. MicroLease things that 25-30% discount on SRP is great for a 2 year old device? Who pays that?



/k

[JPortici]

Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.

knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap

AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel

[mrpackethead]

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.

Absolutely..  What scope month has done for me, is Delete RS and Siglent from my list.    Dont' like their behaviour.

[piranha32]

I don't see the tap sensitivity as a huge issue. Yes, it can become a pain in the posterior when using the touch screen. Yes, you have to remember about it. But it will probably become a non-issue when working with low-impedance signal sources, and when full sensitivity and immunity to disturbances is required, another great advantage of RTB comes to the rescue: remote operation using nothing more than a web browser. When operated from a computer nobody needs to touch the scope. And none of the competitors (who are also sensitive to mechanical shocks) can beat it.

[Octane]

True. That's why I'm again looking forward happily to the day it gets delivered!

[EEVblog]

With a 50R terminator on the input the issue completely disappears - only a hard wack on the connector produces maybe 1 div, so looks like energy transer into a very early part of the input stage.
Even plugging in a standard 10:1 probe with its tip shorted reduces the issue very substantially.

Not for me.
It's still a potential issue even with a probe plugged in.
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.
Obviously it's going to be a complex interaction with the source impedance and cable used etc (which are now a "load" for the voltage impulse)
Yes it goes away with a shorted x1 probe (i.e. a low impedance source) but it's not right to say it's not a significant issue when you plug a probe in. I still see it. YMMV?

[pm.llb]

Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.

knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap

AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel

I've follow the Dave's procedure using mostly verticaly, hand, plastic pen, screwdriver even. Hitting at the top and bnc's causes nothing.
I must check with the probe. It's true that TDS is not a rocket science nowadays but it serve a lot of project in the past and always work.
R&S has been considered as a replacement for it but due to company/distriburors policy - I'm still looking.

[BU508A]

I got an email from a Rohde & Schwarz sales representative. Quote:
"Diese Aktion ist ein "Alleingang" der Kollegen in den USA - die hatten die "glorreiche" Idee, die neuen Scopes analog zu den amerikanischen Herstellern quasi zu verschenken.

Inzwischen sollte diese Promotion durch sein, weil man in unserem Stammhaus in München darauf aufmerksam wurde - ich glaube, die Reaktionen waren nicht allzu positiv.

Kurz und gut: eine solche Aktion gibt es in Europa nicht."

It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

[piranha32]

It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?

[pm.llb]

It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

Instead saying:
Sorry for not treating our customers equaly. Everybody makes mistakes.
We want to be fair and offer equal therms to the rest of the world.

They say:
Nothing happens. We are still want to sell 7k osciloscope for those
who were not able to buy it for 2k because our unconscious policy.

And they still want to win with Asia manufactures which become better and better.

There is always fight between quality and price.
Is the R&S entry scope 3.5 or more times better than any Rigol or Siglent ?

[vokars]

ok: Dave found a potential critical issue with the touchscreen microphonics. And now this problem has to be solved:

1. Mike has no problem with the touchscreen: Which different reason causes the different result? Maybe the protection foil? Could Dave check it also with a protection foil on the second device and compare? Could be a short-term solution.

2. Is there statement from R&S? Short-term solution and long-term solution (class 1 caps in sensitive circuits, ...)?

[MrW0lf]

Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.

Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?

[nfmax]

And, of course, always the possibility that Dave has a faulty unit...

Might be a bad batch of MLCC's? I hate the things!

[mrpackethead]

Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.

[tautech]

Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.

Beware the PSU problems.

[mrpackethead]

Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.

Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look

[tautech]

Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.

Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look

Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.

Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?

I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.

[MrW0lf]

I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.

I seem to remember that people have gotten messed up autocal from DS1000Z, no? I got pretty good autocal, but did leave it completely alone in peace & quiet + switched off all other nearby devices that could produce EMI. So dunno, just an idea what to check for.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?

There are promos in Europe, just not as good.
The advertised offer of £4785 at Farnell was free options with the 300MHz MSO+AWG version, and when pressed they have quoted £3175, which is about half list price, just not as good as the US one.